Another twist in the UK tale

[jeffers]

Hi all,

Had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine last night. He has just purchased a new Laser in the UK. I asked where he bought it from and he advised that he ended up pay ILCA directly for it (I didn't ask where he actually collected it from though).

This is a new one on me! There are currently 2 dealers in the UK so some spares are available.

He did confirm that the serial number did imply that it was a UK built hull as well. Look like Laser Performance is well and truly dead in all but name.....

 

[Deimos]

Hi all,

Had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine last night. He has just purchased a new Laser in the UK. I asked where he bought it from and he advised that he ended up pay ILCA directly for it (I didn't ask where he actually collected it from though).

This is a new one on me! There are currently 2 dealers in the UK so some spares are available.

He did confirm that the serial number did imply that it was a UK built hull as well. Look like Laser Performance is well and truly dead in all but name.....

Earlier in the year I needed a new cover. I actually liked the one I had previously from Laser Performance (though apparently many don't), but they had none (my guess is that suppliers tend to stop sending goods when you stop sending money ... no evidence that this was the reason, just my guess). They were changing to a new US supplied one, had pictures but "no stock for the foreseeable future". Then more urgently I needed a new bailer and it took me ages of phoning round to get one.

My experience of the spares situation is that it is a nightmare. This has to be impacting the reputation of the class and will undoubtedly cause others to selected other classes. I think the situation needs resolving and ironically the rule change the ILCA could not make gives them (with Kirby) the power to resolve the situation. Find another builder, setup an appropriate contract with Kirby, select a decent name and go. I believe a change of name will impact the class far less than the ongoing farce that we have at the moment.

Ian

 

[TonyB]

ILCA bought some boats to use as charters for the 4.7 Worlds in Argentina a few months ago and are now selling them off. The ad on their website quotes £4500 - is that cheap for a boat in the UK?

 

[jeffers]

Doesn't sound very cheap to me! But then again if i was spending that sort of cash on a boat I would not buy a Laser.

 

[Deimos]

ILCA bought some boats to use as charters for the 4.7 Worlds in Argentina a few months ago and are now selling them off. The ad on their website quotes £4500 - is that cheap for a boat in the UK?

Current UK pricing for 4.7 (including sales tax, etc.):

Laser Classic: £4,389​

Laser Race: £4,592​

Laser XD: £4,847​

Same for Standard. Even if it's the most expensive XD version that is only £350 off full RRP for a brand new one !! Without knowing the market, nor the condition of the boats I would expect that price to drop when they cannot be sold.

HOWEVER, given the rumours of no availability of new Lasers, it might just be that those boats are the only option for people who want a new boat and "being stuck between a rock and a hard place" overprices 2nd hand is the best available. A bit like people who buy a new iPhone on the day it is release and put it on eBay for twice the price they paid - laws of supply and demand.

 

[torrid]

What about the leftover Olympic boats?

 

[Deimos]

What about the leftover Olympic boats?

Might be "difficulties" there. Boats in Olympics are not class legal (e.g. sails) so to turn them into class legal boats replacement/new sails would be needed and presumably these would need to come from Laser Performance in the UK. And this brings us back to the subject of this thread ...

 

[torrid]

So what is going on with the Sunfish class? They don't have the design rights drama we have, but I would assume they are experiencing similar problems in obtaining new boats or spare parts.

 

[Tillerman]

So what is going on with the Sunfish class? They don't have the design rights drama we have, but I would assume they are experiencing similar problems in obtaining new boats or spare parts.

I was talking to some Sunfish sailors at a regatta earlier in the year and their story back then was that LP weren't making Sunfish any more.

On the other hand, LaserPerformance are currently running a competition on their Facebook page in which the prize is a "brand new complete 60th Anniversary Sunfish" so presumably they are now, or will be, making some new Sunfish. Or at least one!

I have entered the competition to spread my risk. If the day comes when I can't buy Laser parts or a new Laser, I might have to go back to racing Sunfish.

 

[beldar boathead]

LP is producing some Sunfish for charters for the worlds in October. Sounded like they were starting up the line just for these boats. And LP is not providing any of the charters. All are being offered by dealers. The spare parts problem is the same for Sunfish. If you are lucky, you can find a sail here or there, but in general there are very few parts to be had. Whatever you don't break Sunfish rudder cheeks - they seem to be completely unavailable! BB

 

[BLS]

I was really looking forward to buying a new Laser and then start my sailing adventures. Now I think I'll wait a little longer and purchase an A-Class or F16 catamaran.

I had high hopes for owning a Laser but the class as a whole has been a complete disappointment for me. I can't even buy a new boat!

 

[Tillerman]

LP is producing some Sunfish for charters for the worlds in October. Sounded like they were starting up the line just for these boats. And LP is not providing any of the charters. All are being offered by dealers. The spare parts problem is the same for Sunfish. If you are lucky, you can find a sail here or there, but in general there are very few parts to be had. Whatever you don't break Sunfish rudder cheeks - they seem to be completely unavailable! BB

Hmmm. I think I have some old Sunfish parts stashed in the basement somewhere. Maybe I should dig them out and put them on eBay?

 

[Eric_R]

Might be "difficulties" there. Boats in Olympics are not class legal (e.g. sails) so to turn them into class legal boats replacement/new sails would be needed and presumably these would need to come from Laser Performance in the UK. And this brings us back to the subject of this thread ...

Wait what? Not class legal sails and equipment? What makes you think that? The sails look legal to me, got the button, the logo, everything.

 

[jeffers]

The sails would be class legal with a bit of work. Removal of the flags and olympic insignias and addition of the relevant sail numbers.

 

[rugger_sailor]

The sails would be class legal with a bit of work. Removal of the flags and olympic insignias and addition of the relevant sail numbers.

Don't forget the 2 lb cameras on the bow.

 

[jeffers]

Don't forget the 2 lb cameras on the bow.

They kept falling off didn't they.....

 

[Eric_R]

The sails would be class legal with a bit of work. Removal of the flags and olympic insignias and addition of the relevant sail numbers.

I doubt people would want to use that sail anyway. The rest of the boat is legal.

 

[torrid]

Looks like there will indeed be some boats available. It won't let me watch the video because of my location.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-19285263

Olympics Laser sailing fleet to be sold

16 August 2012 Last updated at 08:13 ET Help Dozens of specially-made Laser sailing boats used by Olympic competitors are to be repaired then sold by the Northamptonshire company which made them.

More than 100 were sent by Laser Performance in Long Buckby to Weymouth for London 2012. Once shipshape again, the boats will be on sale for just over £5,000.

 

[Wavedancer]

Looks like there will indeed be some boats available. It won't let me watch the video because of my location.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-19285263

The BBC video tells us that 72 of the 100 boats have been sold (for £5360) as of the date of the report. The camera mounts are being removed, the holes are being filled, and the bruises will be fixed.

Tom Slingsby's boat will be kept by LP as a souvenir.

 

[Deimos]

The BBC video tells us that 72 of the 100 boats have been sold (for £5300) as of the date of the report. The holes for the cameras are being filled and the bruises will be fixed.

Tom Slingsby's boat will be kept by LP as a souvenir.

That's more expensive than a brand new boat !! (from the same company) Bargain ?

 

[LooserLu]

That's more expensive than a brand new boat !! (from the same company) Bargain ?

I've been at the 2012 Boltenhagen Laser Worlds (Tracy himself is my witness!). Only 2 or 3 of all of those charter boats there aft the event have been in a quality of "to sell directly aft the event". It is defintely a cost intensive work for our main Laser store to refubish those charter boats into a "again to sell"-quality. To me, the price for such a "charter"-Laser (no matter if of 2012 Olympic Games at Weymouth or of 2012 Boltenhagen Worlds, etc.) is sort of " appropriate", if in a quality of "to sell directly aft the event". BUT, it is not a Bargain at all to buy such an "Event charter Laser". For a sailing mate, I took home of Boltenhagen one of those three "to sell directly aft the event" charter Laser (he did pay me the gasoline). Later, I've been able to buy a never sailed brand new boat (# GER2031xx) of our GER Laser-Store in model-version "Classic" (nonXD) of the same price like one of those event charter boats (in model version "XD"). It has been the final sold new Laser in model version "Classic" here , the store owner told (any needed parts of a"Harken"-XD -version I have already in stock in my basement ). Reason, they don't any longer sell the version "Classic" here is: the low demand!
In Summary: If you're able to buy, aft a major event, a Laser in a quality of "to sell directly aft the event" it is cheaper, then to buy it brand new one in model version "Classic", but in this quality there are not many of those charter Lasers to get. BTW: To me, the Olympic boats to get allways is a matter of honour, not a matter of "bargain". I never would come to the idea to delete the stickers of "Weymouth/Quingdao/Athens/Savanah"!! But, of course those boats have to get the 2 well known official ILCA/ISAF silver stickers a the rear wall of the cockpit, in addition with a class legal sail-number. I always thought: the Olympic boats in future stay at LP's- "Sail Laser"-sailing-school at Weymouth/Portland (or an equivalent LP-"Sail Laser"-base. That most of those boats already have been sold at the island of England is incredible to me!

Finaly, to TLF member "BLS" (of PuertoRico), above: It is worth to sail Laser competitive. It definitely is more fun than at an(y) A-Class or F16 Catamaran! Come on and sail with us! Ask Tracy (via TLF-"private massage"-functionality), our ILCA president (aka TLF member "SFB Laser"), to help you to get a boat for you to P.R.!
Then, in 4 years, we meet at Rio!... Me, as a fat and old spectator of the Laser races and you, probably as an Olympic participant in the Laser Standard (who knows)! Guess, even the age 43 Brazilian-"Legend of the Laser Standard", Robert Scheidt, retuns (view here: http://www.laserinternational.org/info/laserstandardrobertscheidtbrawillbeback ).

So, up till then, I am quite sure, there will be produced enough boats of LP/UK or LP/USA or PSA (is my hope) to meet.

Ciao LooserLu
P.S in attachment: Me and my brand new LP/UK-Laser-"Manatee 2", aft her Christening Ceremony of the past Saturday

 

[beldar boathead]

LaserPerformance are currently running a competition on their Facebook page in which the prize is a "brand new complete 60th Anniversary Sunfish" so presumably they are now, or will be, making some new Sunfish. Or at least one!

Is that contest still on their Facebook page? I looked for it and did not see it. BB

 

[Tillerman]

Is that contest still on their Facebook page? I looked for it and did not see it. BB

Yes. "Everyone has a Sunfish Story" Contest.

 

[jeffers]

My mates boat was an ex 4.7 worlds boat. Hull is perfect and he got new spars, foils and sail with it.

 

[Slipstream]

The sails would be class legal with a bit of work. Removal of the flags and olympic insignias and addition of the relevant sail numbers.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but does having the Olympic insignia make a sail not class legal?

 

[AlanD]

No, it doesn't it's just classed as advertising which is fully permitted with the Radial & Standard rig, there are more restriction on advertising with the 4.7.

The reason why the Olympic boats were illegal was because they didn't have sail numbers.

 

[Deimos]

No, it doesn't it's just classed as advertising which is fully permitted with the Radial & Standard rig, there are more restriction on advertising with the 4.7.

The reason why the Olympic boats were illegal was because they didn't have sail numbers.

Am I right in thinking that, whilst the advertising on the Olympic Lasers I permitted, this would only apply to that competition and that using the same boat with the same advertising may not be legal for maybe your National championship or a more local regatta (depending on their advertising regulations).

It was a quite amusing tale from the Olympics in the UK over the advertising, commercial sponsorship and commercial gain. It seems that the various toilet for public use at the various Olympic venues had those electric hand driers and soap dispensers. And those items had the name of the manufacturers printed on the (as does my washing machine, fridge, etc. - normal practice for a manufacturer to put their name on the product). But those manufacturers were not commercial sponsors of the Olympics and other companies who were commercial sponsors of the event decided that it was quite unfair for companies who were not sponsoring to get commercial gain from the event e.g. the manufacturers of toilet hand driers and soap dispensers. So the organisers had to go round with opaque sticky tape and tape over the manufacturers names on the hand driers and soap dispensers !!

Thus, is your sail has ads for brewers ABC Ltd all over it and you attended a major event sponsored by brewers XYZ Ltd, would you be allowed to use that sail ? And when you won and all the magazines had your picture standing in from of your rigged boat with the "Sponsored by ABC Ltd" on display, would company XYZ Ltd be feeling that their sponsorship was money well spent ? But then maybe company ABC Ltd had been sponsoring your training so maybe deserve some advertising/PR recognition ...

Ian

 

[AlanD]

Am I right in thinking that, whilst the advertising on the Olympic Lasers I permitted, this would only apply to that competition and that using the same boat with the same advertising may not be legal for maybe your National championship or a more local regatta (depending on their advertising regulations).

It was a quite amusing tale from the Olympics in the UK over the advertising, commercial sponsorship and commercial gain. It seems that the various toilet for public use at the various Olympic venues had those electric hand driers and soap dispensers. And those items had the name of the manufacturers printed on the (as does my washing machine, fridge, etc. - normal practice for a manufacturer to put their name on the product). But those manufacturers were not commercial sponsors of the Olympics and other companies who were commercial sponsors of the event decided that it was quite unfair for companies who were not sponsoring to get commercial gain from the event e.g. the manufacturers of toilet hand driers and soap dispensers. So the organisers had to go round with opaque sticky tape and tape over the manufacturers names on the hand driers and soap dispensers !!

Thus, is your sail has ads for brewers ABC Ltd all over it and you attended a major event sponsored by brewers XYZ Ltd, would you be allowed to use that sail ? And when you won and all the magazines had your picture standing in from of your rigged boat with the "Sponsored by ABC Ltd" on display, would company XYZ Ltd be feeling that their sponsorship was money well spent ? But then maybe company ABC Ltd had been sponsoring your training so maybe deserve some advertising/PR recognition ...

Ian

Within reason, advertising on Standard / Radials is unlimited, that is, you can advertise what you want in restricted locations. Events like the Olympics do restrict advertising to their own sponsors. But generally, an event organiser cannot prevent you adverting your sponsors at their event. I haven't got my rule books with me yet to give give a clearer answer.

 

[Tillerman]

1. Rule 76
   76.1 The organizing authority or the race committee may reject or cancel the entry of a boat or exclude a competitor, subject to rule 76.2, provided it does so before the start of the first race and states the reason for doing so. However, the organizing authority or the race committee shall not reject or cancel the entry of a boat or exclude a competitor because of advertising, provided the boat or competitor complies with ISAF Regulation 20, Advertising Code.
   
   If you really want to explore the minutiae of ISAF Regulation 20 you will find it at http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/2012ISAFRegulation20AdvertisingCode-[12007].pdf but I can't see anything in there which conflicts with what Alan says above.
   
   

 

[Geophizz]

LP is producing some Sunfish for charters for the worlds in October. Sounded like they were starting up the line just for these boats. And LP is not providing any of the charters. All are being offered by dealers. The spare parts problem is the same for Sunfish. If you are lucky, you can find a sail here or there, but in general there are very few parts to be had. Whatever you don't break Sunfish rudder cheeks - they seem to be completely unavailable! BB

I've actually heard the opposite. I know people who have withdrawn from the Worlds because LP isn't making boats for it. Everyone going to the Worlds is shipping their own boats down there or arranging for charters from local owners in Florida who are willing.

 

[Strangler]

"Sorry if this is a stupid question, but does having the Olympic insignia make a sail not class legal?"

It may within the Rules of Sailing but surely its contrary to the Olympic Constitution/Byelaws/Rules/Copyright whatever. And no doubt ISAF would uphold such rules. Think of all the shops along the Torch route that were told in no uncertain terms to remove Olympic logos.

 

[Slurnet]

The sails would be class legal with a bit of work. Removal of the flags and olympic insignias and addition of the relevant sail numbers.

 

[Orchadankine]

This is a new one on me! There are currently 2 dealers in the UK so some spares are available.

 

[Rheworris]

What about the leftover Olympic boats?

 

[jeffers]

What about the leftover Olympic boats?

I would say they are all sold on by now.

 

[Brotban]

given the rumours of no availability of new Lasers, it might just be that those boats are the only option for people who want a new boat and "being stuck between a rock and a hard place" overprices 2nd hand is the best available