Aluminum trim loose RIVET size? mastic? Renewing my connection.

Petrel

Member
Hi forum members!

I've been away for a while -- needed "back home" as it were.

I still have the older hull, BUT, in the recent weeks have gotten a circa 1973 Sunfish that looks in much better shape but needs a few things done before I can plop it into a pond and sail.

I do not plan on racing, but want to play sail and have undemanding (sort of) fun. This new acquisition needs a bit of work, including re-fastening the aluminum trim at the transom. I will attempt to attach a photo.

I've searched the archives and read about the better TACO vinyl trim, but this is just a bit of a coming apart, and I'm on a tight budget, so I'm keeping the Aluminum trim for now.
Thanks to the member who reminded another patcher upper that the rivet is not supposed to go *through* to the other side (I've never used a rivet gun and recently bought one, so I would have done this.

WHAT SIZE RIVET? And am I to re-drill? Will the hole be too large (already, from other rivet that popped out?). Diameter of Aluminum rivet should be WHAT?
LENGHTH should be WHAT?
How do I keep rivet from going through? Do I want it just to go though top aluminum and glued (the hull deck joint seems solid) hull-deck joint? NOT to the other side of the aluminum trim? Not to the underside?

Also, DO I USE ADHESIVE? What type? I have some 3M 5200 but have since read that that adhesive is permanent. Do I used 3M 4200? I bought a 7 inch long tube of 3M 4200 Quick Drying, but it is $7. or so and the directions said that once opened, even if resealed, it tends to ALL CURE -- The entire tube. So for 12 inches of trim goop, I spend $7 and waste most of the adhesive. Will the longer curing stuff not all CURE IN TUBE and be able to be used for something else. (Should I put out an SOS for boaters and have them pass the used 3m 4200 along very quickly after they each do a 12 inch repair so as not to waste it.

I love the photos folks include, but I'd love to see greater picky detail such at HOW cleats are fastened/held down. Detailed pics of process of gluing. Windline and another site have the trim replacement, but don't tell me what rivet size (diameter and length) nor what if any adhesive.

I've more questions, but in other posts. I saw someone on a sunfish yesterday and it broke my little waterline-lovin' heart that I couldn't put my SF onto the water. I know I am going to love this board boat. Wet fanny and all.

Thanks,
Petrel
 
WHAT SIZE RIVET?
1/8th inch dia. How long – just enough to go through one side of the aluminum plus 4/5ths of the thickness of the lip.

And am I to re-drill?
If the hole in the lip has gotten wollowed out plug it with epoxy and drill it to 1/8” dia. again. Hole can go through the lip, just not the lower side of the aluminum channel.

DO I USE ADHESIVE?
Adhesive’s not necessary, guess you could, only that removing the trim for a future repair would probably trash that piece if it’s glued down. Be sure to lightly bend the aluminum back over the lip so it mostly stays put. It could take some light tapping with a rubber mallet at the corner – working from the far side of the corner around the curve in the direction of the loose end. Press the rivet down firmly as you pull the rivet gun handle. You could put in a second rivet between the corner and the first one. Did you email Windline telling them you’d appreciate having the rivet size added in their instructions?

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You can do a couple of practice rivits on something simular to check how much the rivit pulls up and total length after "popping".

The good thing is if your using aluminum rivits is you can drill them out if they aren't working for you. You might have to grab the bottom of the rivit with needle nose pliers to keep it from spinning while drilling.
 
Thanks Dan and memnar.

I got a swivel rivet tool last year from an orange logo box store (that I no longer frequent), but haven't played with it yet. So, memnar, you're right; I need to practice <looking around for practice material...>.

Dan,
I'll drop Windline a line (or a net) and make that suggestion. I guess I want 4/5 of the 1/4" lip thickness (did someone say somewhere that it is 1/4" thick if the taco vinyl trim is to be the 1/4" ? So maybe 1/4" total rivet lengh since it has to go through the upper aluminum then the lip. I am 3-D challenged; this is the sort of thing that could keep me off the lake).

I think ARROW online might sell Aluminum rivets that are only 1/4" or less? long. Can I trim the "nail" part from a longer rivet? I'm going to assume that I cannot. I may call a sunfish parts seller and see if they know the length of the rivet if I don't hear from Windline after I write him (Steve?).

Thanks, too, Dan re the adhesive. No adhesive. If I need to epoxy the hole can I use the 2-part West Systems epoxy? What do you recommend.

Muggy here in interior New England. I've also got to patch a small hole in the SF hull and get some lines (halyard and mainsheet) and maybe? some sort of swivel cleat.

Thanks again,
Petrel
 
I guess I want 4/5 of the 1/4" lip thickness
Best to measure yours. Don't forget to include one side of the trim too.

I think ARROW online might sell Aluminum rivets that are only 1/4" or less?
Hardware stores carry boxes of 10. On line try McMaster-Carr. Probably get a box of 100 from them for the same price. Length will probably land between 1/8 and 1/4. There's a step-by-step Sunfish/Laser guide at Sunfish Sailors.

Can I trim the "nail" part from a longer rivet?
Don't understand your logic there. The nail is what the tool pulls on to set the rivet.

If I need to epoxy the hole can I use the 2-part West Systems epoxy?
You could, but I wouldn't run out and buy WEST just for a hole filler. You'd want to thicken it with chopped fibers. MarineTex comes premixed with thickeners in small quantities that would be more economical.

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"...Can I trim the "nail" part from a longer rivet...?"
I'm not quite sure what is meant here, either: If you trim the "pointy" end, the rivet tool won't grasp it adequately. If you remove the "bulge" end, the rivet won't be able to swell in order to set properly.

However, the force required to hold the SF aluminum trim is not great. Even the weakest aluminum rivet would supply too much force and could possibly break out a piece of fiberglass.

I'd tighten with the rivet tool only until "snug". (So the trim piece isn't moving). Take some cutters and snip off the "nail" part so it's very short, then file/sand until smooth. Using all-aluminum rivets, you can always drill it out and start over again if not happy with the result.

When removing a rivet by drilling, hold the drill at a slight angle and the top of the rivet will spin and eventually fall off as a "washer". You don't have to drill any further, just drive out whatever is left in the hole with a nail.
 
the force required to hold the SF aluminum trim is not great. Even the weakest aluminum rivet would supply too much force and could possibly break out a piece of fiberglass.

I see your concern, but think that’s the exception rather than the rule. Based on experience I’ve only run across a couple of broken out rivet holes that weren’t the result of other trauma and those were clearly attributable to the hole being misaligned and placed right at the edge of the lip. For the single rivet being set here we can see by the picture in post #1 of this thread that’s not the case in this instance.



I'd tighten with the rivet tool only until "snug". (So the trim piece isn't moving). Take some cutters and snip off the "nail" part so it's very short, then file/sand until smooth. Using all-aluminum rivets, you can always drill it out and start over again if not happy with the result.

IMHO – an incomplete rivet set will just result in another occurrence of pull out sooner than later.


- just drive out whatever is left in the hole with a nail.

Maybe with other assemblies and harder materials the bigger hammer approach might be warranted. Sunfish rarely require more than a gentle push to remove the rivet body from the fiberglass lip. When I’ve removed trim sections most of the rivet shanks just fell out as I slipped the trim off the lip. But that’s a moot point here since we can again see by the picture the rivet body has already pulled free from the lip. For this repair, rivet removal will involve grasping the rivet shank with small nose pliers while someone drills off the head.

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Thanks Porpoise2 and Dan. Guess you can tell I've never used a rivet tool ;)
I feel a little foolish -- ahh, yes, that pointy part.

Soggy weather and other errands haven't allowed me to fix that trim.

I got the rivets (1/8" diam and 1/4 inch long, aluminum.
I have a little $10 Marine Tex kit, but then I read the directions and it says to use all of it (mix it all). Seems like a waste just to mend a rivet hole in the lip of a SF.

I already have some 2-part West Systems epoxy and need to do some other repairs on another boat, so I can use THAT? Dan, did you say use some filler w it? I only have the softish/sandable fairing compound (looks pink when I mix it with the epoxy. This should hold it?

I'm looking around for things to rivet.... (is this how Windex units are attached to a mast?).

A bit of Off SUNFISH specific topic, but on rivets. (I'll try to ask this on the Miscellaneous or Off Topic forum as well), but, here goes. I've got another boat (16 ft) with a more robust aluminum mast. The spreader rivets have broken (shaft of rivet, I think hole in mast is okay, not torn) and the rivets on the other side (other spreader attachment on opp side) are also loose. These rivets are larger. Question: Is there an way to RE-Rivet in this case with same holes if they look right size? Or use something like Marine Tex, drill and re-rivet that way? I'm not connected to any community of sailers (being inland in largely motor boat environment) but I am addicted to sailing on any liquid -- in any craft. Thanks for any help or if you know where I can ask.
More rain in forecast for tomorrow. Maybe the day after as well. grr.
 
did you say use some filler w/it?

The sanding filler just adds air bubbles and makes the resin less strong than resin alone. My suggestion was to add something that makes the resin a little more resistant to cracking. Chopped glass or its finer cousin called milled fibers would do this without making the resin harder to sand and shape. If your WEST dealer is near they’ll have milled fibers. Hopefully they are a fiberglass specialty outlet so you can buy just an ounce or two instead of a large pre-packaged amount. If you’ve been buying mail-order try calling a local auto body repair shop and see if they’ll sell you a tablespoon full or if they have a local supplier you could go to.


I'm looking around for things to rivet....

A can lid to a blind hole in a 2x4 would be a similar attachment just for practice.

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A bit of Off SUNFISH specific topic, but on rivets

Mast spreaders, that’s more than a small repair. They have a load on them and are critical to mast alignment. MarineTex is definitely out. Good bet the rivets used there are stainless steel. Your little rivet tool probably isn’t up to setting stainless rivets in the size needed. Harbor Freight sells a large rivet tool dirt cheap { ITEM 41291-9VGA $15.99 } Probably only good for occasional home use given that ridiculously low price tag. SPARTALK at Brian Toss Rigging would be a better place to ask this question.

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I agree with Dan that the Harbor Freight tool is for home use only using stainless steel rivits, and I would go buy a better one at Sears, Lowes, Home Depot vs the disposable Harbor Freight one. The stainless rivits are tough to pull, get a good tool.
 
I got the rivets (1/8" diam and 1/4 inch long, aluminum.
I have a little $10 Marine Tex kit, but then I read the directions and it says to use all of it (mix it all). Seems like a waste just to mend a rivet hole in the lip of a SF. I already have some 2-part West Systems epoxy and need to do some other repairs on another boat, so I can use THAT?
West Systems epoxy is what I would do.

If you have some spare fiberglass cloth around, you can snip it into tiny fragments to add to the mix. (It's messy, but stronger than straight epoxy).

Depending on the size of the wallowed-out hole, you could sleeve the rivet.

I had to pop-rivet some aluminum awning windows that had lost their lockdown posts. The holes (9/32nds) were much bigger than the rivet body, so I took some spark plug tips and drilled them out to fit the rivet. Setting the pop-rivet swelled the aluminum tips tightly into the hole.

Alternatively, you could use brass tubing or adapt any round brass or aluminum stock. Since the Sunfish trim requires little rivet strength against a lateral force, even a pellet-gun pellet would work!
 

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