All lasers are the same right ? :S

lilcumpi

lilcumpi

Member
I was reading the other day about this Australian laser which was for sale and in the description of the boat the guy advertising said

"the aussie laser is renowned to be stiffer and holds its shape better than British manufactured "
" but most importantly has a mast rake that is on the extreme of the tolerances under class rules, and for this reason the rig set up is the most competitive amongst the fleet, and has been extremely fast upwind where it makes the difference. "

I thought all lasers were built to the same spec all over the world but looking at this advert clearly the aussie boats sound better than the british ones
 
I think you might be about to start off a huge debate here!! But I have heard all the same things so I'm not sure what to think about it. It won't be a deliberate difference but something such as temperature differences etc....
 
lilcumpi said:
I was reading the other day about this Australian laser which was for sale and in the description of the boat the guy advertising said

"the aussie laser is renowned to be stiffer and holds its shape better than British manufactured "
" but most importantly has a mast rake that is on the extreme of the tolerances under class rules, and for this reason the rig set up is the most competitive amongst the fleet, and has been extremely fast upwind where it makes the difference. "

I thought all lasers were built to the same spec all over the world but looking at this advert clearly the aussie boats sound better than the british ones
Click to expand...

There is no way that it could be "renowned" because no one sails boats from 2 different regions and compares them. There are differences because of there being different builders but the point is everyone sails boats from the same region and same builder

At world championship level all the boats are supplied, so all boats are the same

This guy is lying, and I think there is something about importing gear, to do with the builders' licencing that means you aren't really meant to be using foreign gear
 
As Mattcm already wrote, the ad spins the truth a bit.

And to make a point, no two boats are identical. They are built to a certain tolerance, like 100 +1. Building boats is no fun job and even good workers may have a bad day. Moreover, there will be differences in how well the factories (on the three continents) are run. Both day-to-day and other, more consistent differences. The resulting boats may all pass the criteria in the Laser Construction Manual, yet be a bit different, a point I already made earlier.

BTW, Ainslie describes in his book how to measure the rake. He recommends that it be within 148 and 152 cm. He claims that, if anything, raked forward is better. But for mere mortals, good boat handling and picking the right shift is more important than having the 'perfect' hull.
 
Eric_R said:
Check the rules. There are some nice diagrams in there.
Click to expand...

Please post up any diagram in the class rules that has to do the original post ? (Don't think you will find any, mast rake is not in the rules, it's in the closely guarded "Construction Manual", as well as hull weight, layup,etc)

I'm trying to get LaserXD to clarify, I'm under the impression he thinks there is something else besides building tolerances..
 
lilcumpi said:
I was reading the other day about this Australian laser which was for sale and in the description of the boat the guy advertising said

"the aussie laser is renowned to be stiffer and holds its shape better than British manufactured "
" but most importantly has a mast rake that is on the extreme of the tolerances under class rules, and for this reason the rig set up is the most competitive amongst the fleet, and has been extremely fast upwind where it makes the difference. "

I thought all lasers were built to the same spec all over the world but looking at this advert clearly the aussie boats sound better than the british ones
Click to expand...

The guy is full of it. Al lasers are excactly the same. In fact they are actually all the same color and heve the same serial number.
It is only your need to believe they are different that causes you to see different colors.

The only customization that can possibly be accomplished is with duct tape and felt tip markers, but stick with basic lines and stick figure drawings, originality is frowned upon.
 
49208 said:
Please post up any diagram in the class rules that has to do the original post ? (Don't think you will find any, mast rake is not in the rules, it's in the closely guarded "Construction Manual", as well as hull weight, layup,etc)

I'm trying to get LaserXD to clarify, I'm under the impression he thinks there is something else besides building tolerances..
Click to expand...

The rules diagrams show you stuff when measuring the boat. As for the others, you probably can't see them due to the them probably being in the construction manual.
 
Eric_R said:
The rules diagrams show you stuff when measuring the boat. As for the others, you probably can't see them due to the them probably being in the construction manual.
Click to expand...

There is nothing in the diagrams for measuring the boat - only placement of fittings on the deck
 
49208 said:
There is nothing in the diagrams for measuring the boat - only placement of fittings on the deck
Click to expand...

Go to the Bylaws PDF and look at number 3 (or page 50 of the book you got for being a a member). That's what I'm referring to.
 
All Lasers are equal?...perhaps but then again perhaps not. There are some obvious difference. An older abused boat that is heavy and leaks will always be slower than a newer dry boat (or even an older dry boat for that matter).

I have owned several Laser of varying vintages (and sailed many others of varying ages).

No 2 Lasers will ever feel the same. My current boat feels pretty nice and is certainly quick despite it being on a mid 80's vintage. The best feel I have had from a Laser was from a boat slightly newer than my current boat (150,000 vintage). That said the brand new boat I had felt good but not as good as the boat it replaced.

My first boat went ok but never felt quite right. it was agreat first boat though and was perfectly capable of winning races at club level. The strangest 2 Laser I have sailed was a mates 36,000 vintage and one of our club owned boats which is a 49,000 vintage. They both felt awful to sail and seemed to lack power in all conditions. That said I had pretty good results in them and they were certainly competitive at a club level and are great for what they give the owners.

The question about Aussie equipment is a little more about psychology. Yes the hulls had a reputation for remianing stiff, as did the top sections (if the rumours are to be believed). There is 1 aussie boat at my local club. My personal opinion is that it is nothing special and it rarely features in the top end of the results (but that is probably more down to the sailor than the boat).

My advice to you would be to get out in the boat you have. Sail it for a couple of years and see how you get on. Sailing a Laser is almost always about the person in the boat rather than the boat they are sailing.
 
Perhaps Australian lasers stay stiffer because of a dryer climate; more likely to dry out between races, especially looking at todays summer weather!!!

Having said that, a fellow club member accomodated some gold level sailors during the Sail for Gold regatta recently; she mentioned that she did not go as fast in her 180000 boat as her previous 150000 boat. Their response was 'Yes, they are not as good as they used to be'.

Now there's a point for discussion!
 
Good point Stephen.

It is quite noticable how there are still a lot of sub 90,000 boats around and then very few until you get up to around 150,000. this is not just an observation at Hunts but is one in general when I have been looking to buy or sell.

I have to say my first boat was probably the most solid Laser I have owned (it was a 75,000 vintage) and the others all seem a little more flimsy by comparison.

As for drying out there is a simple fix, put a hatch in somewhere then even on a slightly warm day the boat will dry (as long as you make sure there is plenty of air flowing under the cover) and you take the hatch cover off.
 
Not all lasers are the same.

There are differences between every one.

They are all built to the same standard but that standard is slightly different between people/countries.

Its a little confusing.
 
Next thing you clowns are gonna start telling us snowflakes vary from flake to flake.
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This is can of worms to say the least.

All lasers a built according to the builders’ manual. This manual covers the material specs, the amount of material (fibre glass and resin) where it should be located etc. Any difference between boats is the result of working within the tolerances permitted within the manual, the experience of the staff and the environment.

Given the same ingredient and the same recipe, a professional chief is likely to produce a better meal than someone with little cooking experience and I doubt that it is any different in building lasers. I know that PSA have been pushing for inter company staff transfers, so that worldwide we get a better product. Most of PSA's production staff are profession boat builders and many have years experience building lasers. Whilst I have no idea what the staff are like in the other factories, but picking up untrained staff with no experience is not going to give you the same end product despite using the same materials.

Another issue is specifically with the resins, they are sensitive to climate. The PSA factory is an hours drive North of Sydney and the during winter the temperature rarely drops below 8 deg C (46 deg F), at night and often the day are 18-20 deg C (64-68 deg F), during summer the day time temperatures are usually 28-30 deg C (82-86 deg F) and often hotter and rarely drop below 20 deg C (68 deg F) at night and the climate is on the dry side. Within reason higher temperatures and drier environments assist in curing the reasons along with how long the boats spend in the mould and how long the boats spend curing before they finally get used. The Australian factory I believe has a good stock of boats at any time; they are rarely pushed out the door within days of being built.

I don't know about the rest of the world on the points above (except the UK weather which played havoc with the production - casino equipment), but PSA's set up is pretty good and I'm hardly surprised if the boats are stiffer.

However, licensing restrictions have meant in the past that boats built in one region did not enter other regions, so what you were sailing was the same original product as everyone else in your region. Obviously boat age and how much they are used will impact on the condition of the boat long term and the material specs no doubt get changed occasionally world wide (1970's spec resins are no longer available etc). Some individuals have started importing boats from other regions, from my understanding the factories aren't permitted to sell into other factories regions but nothing stops a dealer dealing with an international customer and many of the boats exported have been used in Australia by those customers on the Aus/NZ summer circuit and shipped home afterwards.
 
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