All about to kick off....

#61
...The money owed seems just part of the whole suit
(My guess) I suspect it is more a question of getting the moulds/plugs/tooling back so that a new builder has a clear unconfused market (i.e. to avoid LP making them and making claims whilst new builder is making the Kirby authorised ones and trying to counter LPs efforts and the arguments and confusion continues damaging everybody). Maybe get ILCA out of the picture as well (given their previous attempts to cut him/Rights Holder out of "the triangle").

I don't think there will be any difficulties getting a new builder going very quickly (particularly if they get the moulds/plugs and tooling recovered from LP). It may even be that the Aus/NZ builder might be interested in additional territories or happy for a short term supply through "new builder" whilst production ramps-up. Plenty of possibilities.

Ian
 

torrid

Just sailing
#62
200k boats times $100 per boat is 20 million. In AU they retail for over $7000(I bet BK is getting more than $100). The Dude is 84 years old. I would be pissed as well if the bastards that build my boats won't have the decency to pay me the bit I'm owed.

If he was motivated he could have them all built in Taiwan with better quality and pocket the difference. They do it with $3500 Optimists made in the Far East(brand name).
I was referring more to LPE's intentions rather than BK. I can certainly understand why BK is pissed. He doesn't want to build boats. It's hard to make money building and selling boats. He lets someone else do that and collects a royalty on his design.

However, I think this is about more than just a 2% royalty. In addition to paying the royalty, LPE must build boats within the narrow restrictions of the construction manual with the micro-management from the class association (who are looking out for us). I suspect what LPE really wants is to make a boat that looks like a Laser, but is made using more modern materials and techniques. And maybe put a fancy carbon rig with a transparent mylar sail to increase marketability. Doing this would mean not only bypassing BK and the construction manual, but eliminating the existing class association structure.
 
#63
They could certainly do that if they kept the same hull. There is really no difference between the radial, 4.7, and a new modern rig with a carbon mast and fully battened mylar sail. The hull is the issue in my mind.
 
Thread starter #64
BK is dead right to try and resolve this. LP are so arrogant that they think it is "their" boat. They stopped paying royalties when they were financially crippled, and they would only pay people that were absolutely essential to get product out of the door, so the designer was not paid. This is also what happened to the sb3 class and the laser 2000. So the designer terminates the contract for breach of contract and finds a new builder - simple.

The fact that LP claim to own the trademark in certain regions to the term Laser and the emblem is really neither here nor there. For sure there will be a shitfight over the rights and wrongs here, but that shouldn't stop people going sailing. Use a new name if you have to and move on. Allow all the old boats to change the emblem and join the new class.

The world will be a better place without LP.
 

jeffers

Active Member
#65
Exactly right. The problem is that Rastegar has transferred the Laser TM away from LP to another of his companies.

From what were are led to believe, he is supposed to seek permission from the rights holder in order to do this (as part of the builder agreement).

So as many have rightly said this is about BK regaining control of the TM. The tooling and moulds he may have no claim over (I think they are owned by a company completely separate to LP anyway as the hull building is contracted out I believe).
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
#66
The following has been on the ILCA site for some time (even before the .... hit the fan):

The following ILCA Plaques (boat/sail numbers) are void and any boat showing these sail numbers is not a class legal Laser.
Date Starting Number Ending Number
Apr 18, 2012 203120 203139
Apr 26, 2012 203384 203483

That's a total of about 120 boats.

Interpretation?
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
#67
Plaques have gone missing, be it in one of the factories the plaques, the ILCA/ISAF office, at one of the laser factories or has got lost in the mail. I wouldn't read to much into it, it's probably happens on a fairly regular basis (every few years).
 

sailcraftri

Well-Known Member
#68
2% at wholesale and maybe $80 per boat now but less than half that in the 1980's when even more boats were built than today. But there is also the future payments.
 
#71
These are "intent to use" applications applied for by Bruce Kirby, Inc. Identical marks are owned by Farzad Rastegar through Karaya (Jersey) Limited.

A few speculations on why these applications were filed:

- Perhaps Kirby is preparing for potential outcomes of the lawsuit.

- If these marks are allowed (unlikely because they are identical to registered marks), then Kirby could license them to the builders as required in the ISAF and Builder Agreements.

- These applications might be used to clarify (or confuse) the ownership of the marks (e.g., through a concurrent use proceeding).
 
#73
The April issue of Latitude 38 (p18) has an ad from Westmarine that says:

Laser Performance Hardware
Now West Marine has the genuine Laser Performance
hardware you need to optimize the performance of the world’s
most popular one-design! We carry the Laser Clew Sleeve,
Outhaul & Cunningham and Vang Upgrade Kits and Laser
Traveler and Boom Blocks by Harken, along with sail numbers
and Hull and Deck Covers. And remember that shipping is free
when you order online for pick up at your local West Marine
store. At selected stores and online at westmarine.com.

I thought it might be an April Fool's joke. . .
 

torrid

Just sailing
#74
Wonder how
The April issue of Latitude 38 (p18) has an ad from Westmarine that says:

Laser Performance Hardware
Now West Marine has the genuine Laser Performance
hardware you need to optimize the performance of the world’s
most popular one-design! We carry the Laser Clew Sleeve,
Outhaul & Cunningham and Vang Upgrade Kits and Laser
Traveler and Boom Blocks by Harken, along with sail numbers
and Hull and Deck Covers. And remember that shipping is free
when you order online for pick up at your local West Marine
store. At selected stores and online at westmarine.com.

I thought it might be an April Fool's joke. . .
Funny. Many, many moons ago, my local West Marine store was the Laser dealer. You could buy anything you wanted there - spars, sails, drain plugs. They had a Laser on a dolly that they wheeled out front every day. My apartment was literally next door, making it easy to get parts. They had some disagreement not long after Vanguard took over and dropped the franchise.
 

beldar boathead

Well-Known Member
#76
Will be rather ironic for Laser Performance to be called that if they cannot make Lasers!!! Maybe they will become Sunfish Performance, or Bug Performance, or something like that!! BB
 

jeffers

Active Member
#77
I heard on the rumour mill today that the ISAF having said they will no longer supply plaques to Laser Performance and that the Laser hull manufacturng factory in Banbury is locked up......
 
#78
I think that in life, lack of information can be far more damaging that the real information. So whatever is really going on, not keeping people up-to-date can make a bad situation far far worse.

People do talk and wonder (and even contribute to threads like this, myself as well). So when people are concerned about the impact it will all have on the class, then any negative impact is going to be far far worse when everybody is kept in the dark. The Laser/Torch class is/will be dependent on its users/customers - as without those there are no builders what-so-ever.

But I can appreciate that with a legal case initiated those involved do not always have the same freedoms. But I would have thought that things like telling the class about issuing plaques is not going jeopardise and legal case (which seems primarily concerned with counterfeit goods). And it does have a big impact on the class - so I would have hoped that somewhere in the "powers that be" somebody would have had a thought for the main important consideration in all this - the sailors in the class!

(Not for one moment suggesting we should not be discussing this. People not interested do not need to read it. But more that, as usual, the source of the money going to builders, Kirby/Rights Holder (sometimes anyway)/ILCA/ISAF/etc. seem to be being treated as an irrelevance).

Ian
 

torrid

Just sailing
#79
I heard on the rumour mill today that the ISAF having said they will no longer supply plaques to Laser Performance and that the Laser hull manufacturng factory in Banbury is locked up......
That's the story circulating on SA. The sad part is I'm sure there are people wanting to put cash down on a brand-new Lasers now that spring is here, but the plant workers are now out on the street.
 
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