Accelerating at the start - playing devil's advocate

SFBayLaser

Member
Here is a common scenario:

With about 30 seconds to go you are luffing head to wind (in, let's say, 5-8 knots of wind and smooth water), effectively stopped, on the start line with a nice hole to leeward. Just before the start, you scull down to a close hauled course, roll the boat to leeward then back to windward to quickly accelerate into that nice hole to leeward. The result is a great front row start.

Question: is this ok under rule 42?

Here is a link to the rule 42 interpretations on the ISAF web site.
 
Providing that the roll is not repeated and that it does not have the effect of the stroke of a paddle, then I don't think any rule has been broken.
 
There's no mention of an onus anywhere in the RRS though it is implied in rule 18. My limited experience with protest committees tells me that, in the absence of an on-the-water judge, they're not going to allow a protest, assuming the parties are not in agreement over the circumstances, without evidence of a violation. I guess that puts the onus on the protestor.
 
It may be a violation. However, the way judges are required to rule 42 on the water there is no way for them to call on one roll. 42 requires 2 judges to observe the violation over a short period of time and agree together 42 has been broken by the sailor. One roll does not allow enough time for the judges to get together and rule.
 
There's no mention of an onus anywhere in the RRS though it is implied in rule 18. My limited experience with protest committees tells me that, in the absence of an on-the-water judge, they're not going to allow a protest, assuming the parties are not in agreement over the circumstances, without evidence of a violation. I guess that puts the onus on the protestor.


Thw word "onus" does not exist in the current RRS book.
 
I'm not sure we are focusing on the actual question here: is the described method for starting ok under rule 42? Let me try to get us back on track... here is the Basic Rule:

Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform other acts of seamanship, but shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel the boat.​

(Italics are mine)

There are two acts in the situation described:

1) sculling from nearly head to wind to a close hauled course,

2) once there, rolling the boat to leeward, then back to windward to accelerate into the hold to leeward.

Clearly, the sculling is ok because it is explicitly allowed by 42.3.

What about the rolling? What is the reason for the rolling?

Is this ok under rule 42?
 
I do not think the action you describe constitutes multiple rolls. According to the interpretations, "A roll is a single-cycle athwartship movement of the boat during which the mast goes to leeward and back to windward, or vice versa." You claim that there is a roll to leeward and then a roll back to windward. The interpretations label that action as one roll.
Now...42.2(b) prohibits repeated rolling of the boat. In fact, the interpreations say, "One roll that does not have the effect of a stroke of a paddle is permitted." There seems to be some room for interpretation about that paddle stroke. The interpretations of Rule 42.3 indicate that if your speed drops after accelerating out of the tack you have broken 42.1. I would think that the same idea applies to a roll coming off the line...that if you don't slow down after your roll, you were only facilitating acceleration and were not propelling your boat by "other means".

Rob B: I don't know where you were going with that, I already said there's no mention of onus in the RRS.
 
I would say that a roll to windward by itself would be OK under 42.3(a) and its interpretations, as it is to facilitate steering i.e. bearing away.

It is the roll to leeward in between the sculling and the windward roll that may be illegal under Rule 42. What is its purpose? Clearly not to facilitate steering as it would tend to make the boat head up and it is done between two actions that are intended to make the boat bear away.

A judge might well suspect that the roll to leeward is so that the subsequent roll to windward has more power and not only steers the boat but also has the effect of propelling it forward as it bears away, somewhat like "one stroke of a paddle". On the other hand I have already argued that the windward roll by itself is legal; and the leeward roll by itself has no propulsion effect. Tough call.

Has anybody seen an international judge blow the whistle for this action?
 
I've seen sculling on the line called, but not this. I believe it's a 42 violation as it does increase speed and similar to a paddle strock from a sitting still position. It is a "pump" to weather. However, I think it is very difficult to inforce for several reasons. I've done it for years as a lot of others do and have never been called or given any grief over it. That does not make it right. It is what it is I guess....
 
A bit of a moral dilemma, IMHO.

If it's illegal and you don't do it, you get blown out the back before the race even gets started. If you don't do it and complain and/or protest against those that do, you end up teeing off some (not all) protest committees and a number of competitors.

I have to admit it was a bit of an eye opener the past couple of regattas watching guys blatantly scull to hold their positions on the line. That one's not even a grey area in the 05-08 rules, but it is obviously still going on...

Again, protest and become the "a$$hole or whiner" , do nothing and have them drive over you, or when in Rome...

What would help, again IMHO, is at the start of the regatta, if the PRO would make a comment such as "We will have judges looking for Rule 42 violations" or "Our protest committee is well versed in handling rule 42 protests and prefers that we all play by the same rules" or something along those lines that gets the message out to everyone that the pickle dish winners will earn them by sailing cleanly and within the lines and if someone doesn't, don't be afraid to call them on it.
 
In my experience you do what ever it takes to start in the front row. Timid, law abiding sailors start in the second or third, or fourth row.
 
In my experience you do what ever it takes to start in the front row. Timid, law abiding sailors start in the second or third, or fourth row.

So, you advocate cheating your a$$ off to get a front row start. How do you explain that to a junior sailor, perhaps your own son or daughter when ask your advice on starting or better yet, after explaining it, they question you on the legality of that ?
 
So, you advocate cheating your a$$ off to get a front row start. How do you explain that to a junior sailor, perhaps your own son or daughter when ask your advice on starting or better yet, after explaining it, they question you on the legality of that ?

I take your point, but it's really a case of "when in Rome..." I certainly don't advocate cheating, but big fleet Laser starts are more like a game of dodgem cars than anything else. It's up to the sailor. If you keep clear, don't scull, don't pump - your gone. Sad but true.
 
This is pretty simple.
If you are of the type that believes it to be a foul, then file a protest. If you have a witness, he's gone. Toss a few cheaters out, and the cheaters will stop cheating. You will also find out if the jury thinks it's cheating or not.
I personally believe that witnessing a foul (or being fouled) and not calling a protest is just as bad as fouling and not doing a penalty turn. This is where the sport has lost its integrity. Too many drivers out there that think its Nascar. Rubbin' ain't yacht racing folks....
If you are of the type that believes it to be a foul, but wish it were accepted, file a request for rule change with your local representative. If the majority of the class wants it, they can get it (unless the IOC has control of our rule, which they might since we are burdened with being an olympic class).
If you are of the type that believes it to be legal as is now, keep doing it 'till you get tossed.
 
This is pretty simple.
Toss a few cheaters out, and the cheaters will stop cheating. You will also find out if the jury thinks it's cheating or not...

...This is where the sport has lost its integrity. Too many drivers out there that think its Nascar. Rubbin' ain't yacht racing folks....

I find it interesting that you use a motor racing analogy, Steve. I've been out of sailing for a fair while now, and have always maintained a concurrent interest (although a severly limited participation) in car racing... the most popular category here in Australia seems to be at a crossroads, thanks to the death of sportsmanship at the expense of a "win at all costs" mentality... one which seems all too prevalent in an age where the most-followed path to great personal wealth would appear to be professional sports.

From my point of view (that of a guy who sailed for the pleasure, and the sport - you know, the thrill of the chase, of the tactical game, of the joy of sailing)... I would much rather blow off the start, and then enjoy duking it out for 80th position, than have to blatantly flout the rulebook to compete for sheep-stations among people whose opinion of themselves always seemed ridiculouly high... I obviously never took it seriously enough I guess.
 
It is hard to argue that this is not against the letter of the law. It propels the boat. If it didn't, no one would do it. Definitely illegal.

Having said that, no vaguely competent judge will ever penalise you for it, because like someone commented earlier, the judges are looking for the outliers, the extreme cases. They are not going to flag one person for doing something that 95% of the fleet is doing. Most of the time it's too hard for them to call on whether the sailor is rolling to windward to propel the boat, or simply pulling the boat flat. Until it becomes repetitive.

If fact, the ILCA interpretations of Rule 42 (http://www.laserinternational.org/information/rule42.htm) acknowledge this. These interpretations state that more than one roll at the start is prohibited, which implies that one roll is allowed (or at least that one roll isn't enough to get you flagged).
 
It is hard to argue that this is not against the letter of the law. It propels the boat. If it didn't, no one would do it. Definitely illegal.

Having said that, no vaguely competent judge will ever penalise you for it, because like someone commented earlier, the judges are looking for the outliers, the extreme cases. They are not going to flag one person for doing something that 95% of the fleet is doing. Most of the time it's too hard for them to call on whether the sailor is rolling to windward to propel the boat, or simply pulling the boat flat. Until it becomes repetitive.

If fact, the ILCA interpretations of Rule 42 (http://www.laserinternational.org/information/rule42.htm) acknowledge this. These interpretations state that more than one roll at the start is prohibited, which implies that one roll is allowed (or at least that one roll isn't enough to get you flagged).

This, I believe, is exactly the case.
 
I don't see the problem, pumping the tiller to get the boat to bear away and doing a big roll at the start is absolutely allowed in the link just posted, if it wasn't surely it would be protested by the very same win at all cost types described above, much better to get the competition DQed from the race than risk them beating you by not protesting them.
 
It is hard to argue that this is not against the letter of the law. It propels the boat. If it didn't, no one would do it. Definitely illegal.

I don't agree. I especially don't see how you can say it's "definitely" illegal when you say later in your message that it might be allowed. The basic rule prohibits propelling the boat by means other than wind but there are exceptions to that rule as I pointed out earlier. Roll tacks are legal even if they propel the boat provided the speed exiting the tack is not greater than that entering the tack. Your argument that anything other than wind that propels the boat is illegal does not hold water.
 
If fact, the ILCA interpretations of Rule 42 (http://www.laserinternational.org/information/rule42.htm) acknowledge this.
That document makes it perfectly clear. One rock at the start is not cheating. I had not seen that page before, and thanks for posting its link.
Good reading, and very clear as to what you can and can't do.
Please skippers, take note of the last paragraph. "Competitors are reminded of their responsibility to ensure the continuance of fair racing by protesting if they see any rule infringements. If they are involved in a protest it is their responsibility to get witnesses, preferably other competitors who also saw the incident. They should not rely on members of the Race Committee or the International Jury to have seen an incident - they may have been watching someone else at the time." Yacht racing has always been a self policing sport, and we must continue to do so to keep it pure for the younger sailors coming up behind us (for those of you that are not as young as you wish you were). For the younger sailors; respect from your peers is invaluable, and while some peers may give you respect for winning, you will find more respect from sportsmanship and fair sailing more than any other action. Protesting someone does not mean you are an unfair sailor, or looking to gain by throwing someone out. It simply means you understand what the game is meant to be. It seems to me that it is more common for a skipper to see a 42 foul, and rather than protest, they will take the side of "well he/she's doing it, so I will too", or "if I don't do it too, I'm going to get beat". Next time, think about protesting. Either that, or start a campaign to change the rule.
 
I agree. As competitors we should protest violations of rule 42 when we see them. But in all my years of Laser racing I think I have only ever seen one competitor-initiated rule 42 protest. But the violator was DSQ'd by the protest committee so it can work.

By the way, that latest document on the ILCA site... any idea how old it is? I think it may have been around some time and pre-date the latest revision of rule 42. For example it says that "repeated tiller movements that do not cross the centreline to facilitate steering" are permitted. But the new 42.3(d) changes that to say that "when a boat is above a close-hauled course and either stationary or moving slowly, she may scull to turn to a close-hauled course." Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that sculling when you're below close-hauled and sculling to turn the boat towards the wind are both now illegal. So we may want to be careful about relying on that ILCA document too much.
 
Be careful with that ILCA link, those interpretations pre-date those posted on the ISAF web pages, in fact being an early pre-cursor to the current ISAF interpretations. I'm told that particular page on the ILCA website will disappear soon to be replaced with one which refers to the rule 42 interpretations on ISAF's web page. So I would NOT conclude that because you saw it there it is ok.

In the mean time, I do not know what the current "official" interpretation of Rule 42 for this particular situation is. I was hoping to spark some thought about these types of situations, particularly given some of the advice being administered in some of the other threads on this forum. And I have to admit that some of the responses have been rather surprising to me...

IMHO, if I read Rule 42 and its "official" interpretations I would conclude that the act of rolling the boat to help accelerate off the line is illegal. I think if you look at Rule 42 it is crafted along the same lines as the Laser Class rules with the basic rule telling you that, except for what is explicitly permitted in rule 42.3, you shall not move your body to propel the boat. So, sort of an "unless it is explicitly allowed it is prohibited" type of rule, like the Laser Class Fundamental Rule. I might be missing it, but I don't see anything in 42.3 that talks to the situation described at the start (except for the sculling down to a close hauled course). If I then asked myself "why am I rolling the boat" the answer would have to be "to accelerate more quickly off the start line." Therefore, I would conclude that, technically, it is not allowed (note that I am not a judge, etc., this is just my opinion).

That's probably why I get such lousy starts in light air... nothing to do with my massive extra weight...

I'm hoping to pose this question to an IJ with lots of experience judging major international Laser events. Hopefully a clear explanation will come along...
 
It's not only light air. I see it done, and do it in medium stuff too. I've always felt it played with the edge of being legal. Actually, in a protest situation most guys will say something like, "I couldn't see the guy below me so I leaned in to get a better look. This made my boat heel so I leaned back out to correct it." However, if this is a 42 infraction and it's called on the water by a judge....no chance to splain it in da room.
 
Tracy,

In this case it's pretty clear-cut, isn't it? Using the rudder to scull the boat from head to wind down to closehauled is specifically allowed by Rule 42.3(d). Heeling the boat to leeward and then rolling it flat while closehauled, with no change of course, clearly acts as a "stroke of a paddle" action to push the boat forward (that's why it's done, right?). I was flagged at the Nationals a couple years ago for that exact action at the start, and had the opportunity to talk with the judges about it later (I was lucky, the start was general recalled).

Now if in the same situation you are below closehauled at the start, you can heel to weather to bring the boat up to closehauled, then roll flat ONCE and you are covered by 42.3(a) and should not be flagged.

Or am I missing some subtle point here...?

Mike S
 
I agree that the explanation makes the roll legal and I can see where this explanation could cover you in a protest hearing situation, (which is why I think this move dances on the edge of a 42 violation) but if you are flagged for a roll by an OTW judge you just have to do your turns right then.

The thing for the judges is, (under their rules) a single roll is hard to catch and call as 2 judges in the same OTW judge boat have to witness your action and agree together that you have violated rule 42 before they can throw a flag. On a crowded starting line with maybe 3 judge boats on the water this is a very difficult task for them.
 
One thing I have learned at big regattas is to take a look behind me before the gun, and if that judge boat is floating in the area to be *extra* careful about kinetics at the start...

Mike S
 
Since I first heard a judge stand before a gathered fleet of Laser sailors and make the "stroke of a paddle" comment, I have been tempted to go do EXACTLY as I asked permission to do in that first meeting.


Scenario:

I take a paddle with me and sail near the judges boat well before the race begins. I bring my boat to a stop. I make one full long stroke with that paddle.

I announce to the judges that I have just demonstrated the effect of one stroke of a paddle.

Then I sit as Tracy described on the starting line and do one of the following.
1. Make that same stroke just at the start and see if I can keep up. If I fail I protest.
2. Make the one stroke and shoot ahead...and get tossed.
2. Make only one half of the stroke ande base my claim that it was OK on the fact that cheating just is not cheating unless it propels the boat a full paddle stroke's worth

The paddle stroke concept / explanation / guideline is a bull crap cop out. We have always made various actions illegal based on the action itself...not on its effectiveness.
{ Exception:recently, hitting the weather mark and the related penalties has changed to include an " if you gained by whacking the mark" clause. I have never seen anyone tossed or anyone who retired because the yacht "gained by hitting the weather mark."

refocusing...Either rolling and pumping is illegal or it is not. The rules do not say. "IN-effective rolling and pumping is OK. Klutzes and those who don't understand physics may yank and rock "till they drop."

I think when a Judge opens his mouth and says "stroke of a paddle." you should always hear, "This clown is clueless and a danger to the game of Lasering."

Next time you hear someone say it, try to get him off the jury immediately.

In fact, what you should do with that judge after removing him / her from any position of authority...( not forever. Just for some remedial education)..
is...
Take that judge to a boat and teach that judge how boats work. You may have to show the judge how to paddle a Laser. You will enjoy watching the judge as the difficulty of holding the tiller with the toes while stroking a paddle over the side is reacognized for the first time.
It may take a few weeks or even months to teach the judge how to effectively pum0, ooch, rock and roll and generally develop a decent sense of which kinetics work to propel a Laser and how the moves are accomplished.

Then when the judge has learned how much SAILING SKILL is need to actually use kinetics, it will be fun to watch and listen while the judge tries to explain how proper use of kinetics is not sailing..Ask if it it is bowling, golf or maybe really part of football??
Ask "What is kinetics if it is not using the wind and water to propel the boat??

But I digress and rant...

Stroke your boat
Do it on a Laser
 
Since I first heard a judge stand before a gathered fleet of Laser sailors and make the "stroke of a paddle" comment, I have been tempted to go do EXACTLY as I asked permission to do in that first meeting.


Scenario:

I take a paddle with me and sail near the judges boat well before the race begins. I bring my boat to a stop. I make one full long stroke with that paddle.

I announce to the judges that I have just demonstrated the effect of one stroke of a paddle.

Then I sit as Tracy described on the starting line and do one of the following.
1. Make that same stroke just at the start and see if I can keep up. If I fail I protest.
2. Make the one stroke and shoot ahead...and get tossed.
2. Make only one half of the stroke ande base my claim that it was OK on the fact that cheating just is not cheating unless it propels the boat a full paddle stroke's worth

The paddle stroke concept / explanation / guideline is a bull crap cop out. We have always made various actions illegal based on the action itself...not on its effectiveness.
{ Exception:recently, hitting the weather mark and the related penalties has changed to include an " if you gained by whacking the mark" clause. I have never seen anyone tossed or anyone who retired because the yacht "gained by hitting the weather mark."

refocusing...Either rolling and pumping is illegal or it is not. The rules do not say. "IN-effective rolling and pumping is OK. Klutzes and those who don't understand physics may yank and rock "till they drop."

I think when a Judge opens his mouth and says "stroke of a paddle." you should always hear, "This clown is clueless and a danger to the game of Lasering."

Next time you hear someone say it, try to get him off the jury immediately.

In fact, what you should do with that judge after removing him / her from any position of authority...( not forever. Just for some remedial education)..
is...
Take that judge to a boat and teach that judge how boats work. You may have to show the judge how to paddle a Laser. You will enjoy watching the judge as the difficulty of holding the tiller with the toes while stroking a paddle over the side is reacognized for the first time.
It may take a few weeks or even months to teach the judge how to effectively pum0, ooch, rock and roll and generally develop a decent sense of which kinetics work to propel a Laser and how the moves are accomplished.

Then when the judge has learned how much SAILING SKILL is need to actually use kinetics, it will be fun to watch and listen while the judge tries to explain how proper use of kinetics is not sailing..Ask if it it is bowling, golf or maybe really part of football??
Ask "What is kinetics if it is not using the wind and water to propel the boat??

But I digress and rant...

Stroke your boat
Do it on a Laser

If their is any "bull crap," it's only to be found in your comment.
1. I know some ISAF judges and they're all better sailors than you.
2. The rules are designed to make sailing fair and keep the sport interesting.

Everyone plays by the same set of rules and the ideas of rules governing kinetics, including the "paddle stroke," are a good way of making sure that physical prowess and athleticism are still a part of the sport while making sure that the sport doesn't digress into a race of kinetics. So far I've noticed a trend in that the fat old geezers on this forum, the ones that can't keep up, physically, like to bitch and moan about this and call anyone who's ever had a good start a cheater. If you go back and look through all the posts on this topic, all those with ages posted above 35 are kinetics-naysayers.
 
---snip---
So far I've noticed a trend in that the fat old geezers on this forum, the ones that can't keep up, physically, like to bitch and moan about this and call anyone who's ever had a good start a cheater. If you go back and look through all the posts on this topic, all those with ages posted above 35 are kinetics-naysayers.


Fosq, you need to re-read (and read some other threads) and pick up your level of reading comprehension. Gouv wants kinetics back (at least certain segments of the rule) and is saying that the current rules are too restrictive AND too hard/ambigous to judge and sail under. Some (not all) of the "fat old geezers" as you call us agree, others remember what it used to be like and prefer the direction that rule 42 has been taking in the past couple of revisions.

This thread pointed out exactly how grey the rule 42 issue is in peoples mind. That doesn't have to mean that some people are kinetic naysayers, it could mean that some people prefer to sail clearly/cleanly within the boundries of the rule, a second group may not realize they are pushing the boundries and perhaps a third that find/explore and yes sometimes exploit the fringe areas of the rules. It's not just rule 42 where this happens either. That the nature of competition. I can tell you it's not age based.

PS - some day you will be an old geezer and depending on your life style you may be a fat one too. But don't worry, we will have aged even more and forgotten your comments by then. ;)
 
If their is any "bull crap," it's only to be found in your comment.
1. I know some ISAF judges and they're all better sailors than you.
2. The rules are designed to make sailing fair and keep the sport interesting.

Everyone plays by the same set of rules and the ideas of rules governing kinetics, including the "paddle stroke," are a good way of making sure that physical prowess and athleticism are still a part of the sport while making sure that the sport doesn't digress into a race of kinetics. So far I've noticed a trend in that the fat old geezers on this forum, the ones that can't keep up, physically, like to bitch and moan about this and call anyone who's ever had a good start a cheater. If you go back and look through all the posts on this topic, all those with ages posted above 35 are kinetics-naysayers.


Wow...Quite a chip on your shoulder there.
You are obvioulsy mad about something but I cannot make sense enough of your reply to decide what the heck you are trying to tell us.

On the one hand you say the rules are the same for everybody and by extension claim the paddle stroke is a good way to define the level of kinetics which are allowed.
I was attempting to explain that "a stroke of a paddle" is such an absurd measurement that I want to see it immediately dropped from use.

I see the stroke of a paddle explanation as "bringing an additional unknown variable to help solve confusion."
I don't have any idea what the effect of a stroke of a paddle is supposed to mean.
You absolutely have no way to know what I think it means.

Why the hell would you use something I don't understand to try to explain something to me??

Does that method seem rather pointless?

If you want to know how far I walked today, I could tell you about as far as from my house in Union City to the old Luptons Bakery. If you have no idea where I used to live or where Mrs Lupton had her bakery, you don't learn a thing from my explanation.

My simple challenge to you:
Gather a few friends together and go out on your Lasers. That is fun...I am asking you to go have fun. See? I am being really nice here.
Take along a few paddles. Bring a big wide five foot paddle. Bring a three foot paddle. Bring one of those plastic paddles that hooks over your hand and behind your wrist. Bring a double ended kayak paddle.

Now line up for some starting tests. Try to figure out which paddles are effective. Figure out which ones are not. Try to figure out how hard you can stroke the paddle. .
Figure out how much of a flattening pump it takes to gain "a stroke of the paddle."

Wait...which paddle?

Is the paddler a big strong person who is great with a paddle or a frail person who does not paddle very well?

Is there wind or very little? Or is it medium?
Does the stroke of a paddle rule include consideration for the lost distance while the sailor who has just paddled sets the paddle down and resumes steering and trimming?

My hypothesis is that in light wind, the well executed long stroke of a paddle done while holding the tiller with one foot could give a better push off the line than a well executed pump. In all other conditions, I believe the time spent storing the paddle and getting back to sailing would cancel any gain from using a paddle.
Wait! Are we supposed to include the real version of a paddle stroke or just the initial theoretical surge.
In fact, are the judges referring to a Laser that is paddled while the rig in down?
My point:
I don't know. You don;t know. Nobody knows

When some well intentioned judge stands up in front of me and says." a stroke of the paddle" I want that judge to KNOW exactly what gain is made by taking one paddle stroke.
More important that that>>

I want everybody in the room to know exactly what is meant by "one paddle stroke."

And even more important than thatL

For your claim to be true>>>"Everyone plays by the same set of rules and the ideas of rules governing kinetics, including the "paddle stroke,"

All the judges must absolutely understand the effect of a clearly defined paddle stroke and be able to recognize the exact energy as it is applied to a sailing craft.

My age has nothing to do with this. I knew how to paddle when I was a little kid and regularly paddled around in my Oprimist. When there was no wind for sailing , our instructors knew the value of having good paddling skills and we regularly had paddling races around the buoys.
If, when I was eight years old, a person had told me "the effect of one paddle stroke" was something I should understand I would have asked the same question I asked the first time I heard a judge use the stupid explanation in Corpus Christi.

"How big of a paddle stroke with how big of a paddle and operated by what size person?"

The judge at that meeting thought I was being a difficult smart ass.

If I were being a smart ass I would have asked if he meant you could pump as hard as you wanted without hurting your butt. When I was in school, one stroke of the paddle hurt like hell...

and the fact I remember that does prove I am old.
 
all those with ages posted above 35 are kinetics-naysayers.
Yes, you may be right. But, I don't think it's because of our age or our fitness (or lack thereof). It's because of our integrity. The rule says you can't do it, so it doesn't get done. You young pups are being trained to "get away with whatever you can", and that's not sittin' well with me. My son is just starting juniors, in a 4.7 . I don't want him taught to be a "rule bender" (PC phrase for "cheater" since calling a spade a spade is no longer PC).
For the record, I am not a kinetics naysayer. I wish it were legal. The Laser is more exciting when you push it harder. I am however, a rule follower. Right now, the rule says you can't use kinetics, or you are cheating. Simple as that.
 
From the excellent position of sail-number-recorder for one of the several line-sighters at the recently completed Midwinters, I found the conduct of sailors in all fleets rather subdued compared to what I thought it was when I actually compete in Lasers. Gazing at the fleet from the signal boat, there seemed to be one rock and go. The top sailors did NOT heal far to leeward before the quick hike.
Note that Anna Tunnicliffe was whistled for rocking in the first, light air start. But we General Recalled that start. Paige Railey was whistled for sculling in the second start. After a 720 and starting well after the fleet in light and patchy air, she managed to get back to 18th. The sailors were tied at the end of the series, with Anna winning by virtue of one more first place. Close.
Also observed was on the run to the gates right in front of us, the full rig fleet was significantly more, uh, active in rolling the boat while changing directions in response to waves than the Radials. All of the top of the fleet were more 'side-to-side than the helicopter video of Paige Railey during the Miami OCR. I may change my mind and think that there is a different standard for the full rig. Oh, and I think it is good form that the on the water judges were not at all reticent to using their names on the judging digest in the results.
 
From practicing with college sailing teams, I have found that everyone that luffs at the line, accelerates at 5 seconds using this technique. Keep in mind that it does not have to be a large roll in a laser due to its pointing capabilities and lightweight. In FJ's, the team I practice with sculls and backwinds the jibs to get to a close reach and then submerges the leeward rail. After accelerating, one heads back up to close hauled. I would say that it is definately not against the rules in college fleet racing and is not a huge deal anywhere.
 

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