Class Politics A new clew tie-down sleeve?

Would you be consider buying a "JC Tie-Down Sleeve"?


  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .

drLaser

Member
Hi,

In a post on April 8, I had noted that "JC Tie-down Sleeve", an article about the re-engineered clew tie-down fitting designed by John Christianson was made available in the "Class & Racing Rules" and "Maintenance" sections of the drLaser web site.

Since then, the "JC Tie-down Sleeve" was being tested by ILCA NA Vice Chairman Tracy Usher, and is now on its way to the Worlds at Bitez, Turkey so that the World Council members can have a chance to seriously consider it and test-sail it.

The "JC Tie-down Sleeve" is a cylindrical polished stainless steel part that fits snugly around your boom end and allows you to quickly and securely attach your clew grommet to it. The clew is attached by just hooking it to an internal hook on the sleeve.

The advantages of the system are:
1) allowing you to keep your clew really far down, flat against the boom, giving you a tight leech and thus reducing the load on your vang - a feat impossible with a line tie-down, no matter what kind of line you use, while
2) allowing you to unhook the clew from the boom in a snap, for adverse landing or emergency conditions, and
3) eliminating almost all the friction of the tir-down on the boom.

Those who resist the introduction of this new "gizmo" as a legal Laser part cite that:
1) nobody really needs this (except maybe for hot-shot racers for whom a tight leech is crucial), and
2) a hooked clew can never be as secure as a tied clew, and may accidentally release from the hook in certain deathrolls.

The drLaser article points out that the design is such that it is impossible for the clew grommet to accidentally release from the hook withou human help.


In consideration of the pending World Council review of this new part, it may be interesting to determine if such a new part would have grassroots support. Both the World Council and the designer - a long-time Laserite, himself - would probably want to know if such a part would have a market.

I would appreciate it if you took the poll and voiced your opinions based on the above and/or the (ILCA Members Only) drLaser article.

Shevy Gunter
Member, ILCA-NA
Editor, drLaser
 
Doesn't this re-open the and/or question? We need a rules interpretation in simple language:

Sue sticks Sue's sail's clew with glue,
Shy Stu sews Stu's sail's clew,
Sly Sue sleeves Sue' sail's clew, too.
Should shy Stu sue sly Sue?
 
If the Builders had a new part to sell, I'm sure they would write the related rule so that sailors could use as a clew tie-down either a metal sleeve or a conventional flexible strap (with or without balls and/or tubes).

The question here is: Is there public interest in such a gizmo?

SG
 
i am, as im sure most competitive sailors are. i know many people at my club are always strving to reduce friction there and fropm what i gather this piece of equipment would reduce friction alot
 
Thanks, Chris!

But why do we have so far just 12 voters out of 500???? Come on! This is your chance to participate! And you don't even have to be a member of ILCA to have a say here...

Can we see some more hands!

Shevy Gunter
 
Hi Shevy,
although I´ve already voted, just let me notice the following:

Your words:"...And you don't even have to be a member of ILCA to have a say here...

Can we see some more hands!"

How should a non-ILCA-member know (and vote) about the "John Christianson tie-down-sleeve" if she/he is not able to get a picture of it? As you know, the description is saved with a password only for ILCA-Members...

Bye-bye
LooserLu
 
Hi, Ludwig,

Just remember that "we" (i.e., ILCA Members) voted for the new rigging with optional blocks without seeing ANY of it in 1999!

We have been expressing opinions on the carbon upper mast without seeing it, either.
We even voted on it (and said "no") - without seeing it - in 1999.

I believe the information provided in the starting post of this thread is sufficiently descriptive. It offers much more info than what we had in the above mentioned cases. What the JC Sleeve fitting "looks like", it's color, curves, polish, tech specs, etc. have no bearing on selecting one or more of the alternative answers to the public interest question "Would you consider buying a JC Tie-Down Sleeve?" - as it is described in the opening post.

Non-members of ILCA will never get to vote on this or any other Class matter. Voting is a membership privilege! Nevertheless, that does not mean that you can not or should not affect public opinion, Builders' opinions and the Class' views. And this is the medium! This is the non-members' opportunity to make a difference! Vote, and if necessary, write to explain your rationale!

Even if non-members shy away from expressing an opinion here for lack of a photographic description of the proposed fitting of for fear that their opinions will ultimately not count, I bet we have hundreds of ILCA members here. I think at least they should express their opinions. NOW! The World Council is considering the fitting in Bitez right now!

If you think the JC Sleeve is a great idea, and if the ILCA Worls Council decides simply to ignore the proposal rather than offer it to the vote of the Membership, then it will be your fault because you did not encourage the Class to offer it to a vote.

If you think that the JC Sleeve is a redundant or terrible idea, and if ILCA decides to support the proposal and offer it to the vote of the Membership, then it will again be your fault because you did not discourage the Class.

It's partially up to you!

That's civil participation for you!

Right here, on The Laser Sailboat Forum! (Not intended as an ad for Bradley, but let's face it: this medium is the ONLY one offering such on-line polling facilities to the Laser sailors world-wide.)


PS. The reason why the article is for "ILCA Members Only" is to protect the Intellectual Property Rights of the designer. ILCA Constitution (theoretically) protects the designer, an ILCA member himself, against misuse of the proprietary design information by other ILCA members. That margin of security is not available against non-members who are not bound by that Constitution.

Best regards,

Shevy Gunter
Member, ILCA-NA
 
My dear Shevy!!

I have nothing against anything here!
I just want to help.

In Germany we have "a word" for that:

"Das Auge ist mit!" (The eye eats with you).

I hope you understand what I mean :).
And for that, I only want to let you (who to have to decide how to make advertising for it) this know, as only 1 little of the 100000´s, no more - no less.

Nothing against you, Shevy,
nothing against the designer himself or his copyrights etc. pp.,
nothing against any official or non official sailor, ok!!

As you, I only want that a lot of more than yet 13!!!! say something to this new idea of a clew tie down. The designer has deserved it! And if you want to missunderstand me, Shevy, than it´s your´s!

Please, all readers of the TLF and anywhere else: vote for it!

Peace!

Ludwig Brinckmann
Germany
cruising-Laserite
 
> And if you want to missunderstand me, Shevy,

Never, Ludwig! No misunderstandings. And thanks!!!

My post, addressed to you, was actually a plea to everyone to get involved.

Stay wet,
SG
 
Howdy Fellow Laserites,
I think anything that will improve boat performance and ease of use in so far as rigging will be a welcome addition in my book. I believe Fred Schroth showed me a very similar boom sleeve type clew hold down device he had in his bits box. I don't remember who he said built it.
I believe that it would be much easier to use then attemping to tie down a clew tightly when the wind is honking and the sail just doesn't want to be managed.
As long as whom ever markets it (hopefully John Christianson) will keep the price reasonable so everyone can afford one. Heck give it a test drive and evaluate it and let the membership decide whether or not it would be worthy of addition into the Laser one-design rules.
The other side of the coin is rope clew tie down devices have worked fine for years, is there really enough of a difference in performance,ease of use and safety to warrent making the change.
Full sails to Ya'll
Fishingmickey
150068/150087/178894
 
ive had my clew tie down sleeve for like 5 months now and they're great! so much easier to use than the rope! i dont know how much they are over there but here they are under about £10.
They are so much better than the tie down cos they never ever jam and are quick and easy to put on! GO OUT AND BUY ONE is my suggestion
 
james17 said:
ive had my clew tie down sleeve for like 5 months now and they're great!
Where did you get it from? So far as I know, the design being discussed here is just a prototype (only one or two in existence).

Cheers,

Geoff S.
 
extremely good question Geoff, i was also under the impression that the JC clew tie down is still a prototype and the first proper one was sent to Bitez for the ILCA to have a look at.
 
shevy, you were saying that non members should vote basied on the decription, but i cant really tell what it is from the vague dicriptions given.... could you please explain a little further?
 
well unless the JC one is any different to the rooster one i dont know! but ive been using my rooster one for seriously nearly 5 months and it never jams! i do was it through tho and it never loosens! anyone got a link to this JC one?
 
yup thats it! i would be able to have a look at the JC one but i dont know my password for the dr laser thing, does anyone have any other links to it?
 
Ooh i have one very simaler to the rooster one, except my mother made mine for me at work! it works awesome and i am the first one around here to use that system, i have been many questions about it and the intrest seems there! is it ilegal or not because the way i read the rules it seems to be legal but i have been told otherwise
 
well i dont see why steve cockerill would advertise so much for it and sell a lot of them if it wasnt! surely he would notify us and it seems pretty clear in the rules that it is legal!
 
This new system sounds like it will be fairly efficient. I use a piece if spectra at the moment, it can be a real hassle while rigging up (probably the most time consuming), and it does tend to cause a bit of friction. I'm looking forward to seeing what the new system is like.
 
it's my impression from Shevy's post that the JC model incorporates a hook for direct attachment of the sail's clew, not simply a point of contact for the purpose of securing the sail to the boom. This feature would substantially improve the rigging and emergency dumping performance of such a system since the sail could be free, with the outhaul lines and block slacked until the moment you decided to "clip" on or off. Do I have this concept correct?
 
Perhaps no one is interested in posting a picture until ILCA makes some declaration of their interest/no interest. This would delay the oppty for others to quickly knock off the design and come to market with a competitive, if not slimy substitute.
 
After reading about the sleeve, I did some trials the other week with a piece of PVC stormwater pipe that was slightly larger in diameter than the boom. I cut a piece about 5 inches long and then cut a slit down its length so I could open it out to fit over the end of the boom. I then tied my clew-tie-down around the PVC in the fashion that I would normally do around the boom.

Now this was a very rudimentary solution to the flash options being discussed here, BUT, the system was quite effective!

If you can tie the clew down tightly to the PVC there are very little losses in leech tension. The PVC slides more easily along the boom than does rope. PVC is cheap! You do not have to take the boom apart to fit the sleeve. People who can tie knots can have just as an effective system as those who can spend money!

I am not saying my system was perfect, but for a forst attempt, I was fairly impressed.


Hope this helps.
 
wabbit said:
I did some trials the other week with a piece of PVC stormwater pipe [...] People who can tie knots can have just as an effective system as those who can spend money!
Pretty cool idea! If the ILCA decides to allow this kind of modification, perhaps they could consider wording the rule to allow a range of implementations like JC's and yours.

Cheers,

Geoff S.
 
Here is a hint to the "JC tie down sleeve":

The following quotation is to find on page 7 of a pdf-file at www_laser_org:

http://www.laser.org/c/cnt/down/2004AGM.pdf

Start of Quotation:
"

Report of the 2004 ILCA World Council Meeting
Friday May 21, 2004

(...)

Perhaps the longest single discussion topic of the meeting centered on the various
proposed rule changes and rule interpretations. There were many “minor” proposed
changes, such as an interpretation on allowing one rivet to be used to attach a soft boom
strap, allowing a slightly larger diameter rudder bolt (driven by English vs. metric
systems), allowing rope splices in the traveler, etc. The two most interesting proposed
rule changes centered on proposals aimed at centerboard and centerboard trunk wear, and
on the “John Christiansen Boom Sleeve.” There were a total of three proposals aimed at
the problem of centerboard and trunk wear, ranging from allowing tape in the top few
inches of the of the trunk to allowing “wear strips” (similar to the Byte and 29er classes)
along the top and bottom edges of the trunk. At the end, it was recognized that there is a
problem but none of the proposed rule changes provided a solution consistent with the
Laser Class rules so the issue was sent to the Technical Committee for further
consideration. The boom sleeve was tested by two of the World Council members, both
of whom found it to significantly reduce the friction at the boom end making it amazingly
easier to adjust the outhaul while sailing upwind in breeze. Concerns were raised
regarding long term “real life” performance and potential cost issues. Again, this item
was referred back to the Technical Committee for further testing and consideration.



(...)

"
End of Quotation

Now, my question is: When do they decide, to get this sleeve classlegal -
2005, 2008, 2012?

[And do you understand that about what is now allowed, f.e. with "the problem of centerboard and trunk wear"? Maybe this is also something to discuss deeper in seperate threads - I understand nothing... if I read that words in the report]

Chiao
LooserLu
 
Thanks for posting the note about the Class-Association discussions!


LooserLu said:
And do you understand that about what is now allowed, f.e. with "the problem of centerboard and trunk wear"? Maybe this is also something to discuss deeper in seperate threads - I understand nothing... if I read that words in the report
There was a resonable discussion (esp. the rules) about the problem of the leading edge of the centerboard wearing a groove in the top/forward area of the centerboard trunk:
RANT - leading edge of daggerboard trunk

Cheers,

Geoff S.
 
after talking to the ILCA technical director today (Adam French), the general feeling about the jc sleeve was good apart from the cost issues, he did also mention that they also liked the pvc pipe sleeve instead of aluminium, for cost reasons (i am unsure if they got the pvc pipe idea from 'wabbit' of TLF or not).

another problem is the long term wear on the boom by the sleeve, a test is being conducted to assess if or how much wear the jc sleeve causes on the boom
 
Murphs said:
after talking to the ILCA technical director today (Adam French), the general feeling about the jc sleeve was good apart from the cost issues, he did also mention that they also liked the pvc pipe sleeve instead of aluminium, for cost reasons (i am unsure if they got the pvc pipe idea from 'wabbit' of TLF or not).

another problem is the long term wear on the boom by the sleeve, a test is being conducted to assess if or how much wear the jc sleeve causes on the boom

Thank you Chris, I think, this information helps for waiting and to get calm again :). This with the wearing seems to be a problem, I´m in the same opinion and I agree to the point: better let the pros test it and make it maximum perfect, than quarrel about this "wearing-footprints at the boom" later on. I personally would prefer one of metall and not that with plastic (also a very cool idear), because it has probably more durability, although *wabbits* solution could be the cheaper and lighter one.

Maybe the builders have little look to drLasers-tie-downs and make some tiny wheels (balls) into that J-C-tie-down for more reducing the friction and the wearing footprints.
To reduce the wight of that new JC-tie-down, they could think about alu or titan. But alu is maybe 2 smooth and titan is horrible expensive - I´ll wait and see what they design and build.

Chiao
LooserLu
 
I'm using spectra at the moment, if you tie it in a loop in it you can pass the loop through clew, around the boom and back over the knot, it holds in place well, slides and is easy to undo.
 
the money you would lose in buying such a device would be nothing compared to the amoutn of mclube you have to currently use.
 
We need a password.

I recently became an ILCA-NA member. How do I access this?
 
drLaser said:
Hi,

In a post on April 8, I had noted that "JC Tie-down Sleeve", an article about the re-engineered clew tie-down fitting designed by John Christianson was made available in the "Class & Racing Rules" and "Maintenance" sections of the drLaser web site.

Since then, the "JC Tie-down Sleeve" was being tested by ILCA NA Vice Chairman Tracy Usher, and is now on its way to the Worlds at Bitez, Turkey so that the World Council members can have a chance to seriously consider it and test-sail it.

The "JC Tie-down Sleeve" is a cylindrical polished stainless steel part that fits snugly around your boom end and allows you to quickly and securely attach your clew grommet to it. The clew is attached by just hooking it to an internal hook on the sleeve.

The advantages of the system are:
1) allowing you to keep your clew really far down, flat against the boom, giving you a tight leech and thus reducing the load on your vang - a feat impossible with a line tie-down, no matter what kind of line you use, while
2) allowing you to unhook the clew from the boom in a snap, for adverse landing or emergency conditions, and
3) eliminating almost all the friction of the tir-down on the boom.

Those who resist the introduction of this new "gizmo" as a legal Laser part cite that:
1) nobody really needs this (except maybe for hot-shot racers for whom a tight leech is crucial), and
2) a hooked clew can never be as secure as a tied clew, and may accidentally release from the hook in certain deathrolls.

The drLaser article points out that the design is such that it is impossible for the clew grommet to accidentally release from the hook withou human help.


In consideration of the pending World Council review of this new part, it may be interesting to determine if such a new part would have grassroots support. Both the World Council and the designer - a long-time Laserite, himself - would probably want to know if such a part would have a market.

I would appreciate it if you took the poll and voiced your opinions based on the above and/or the (ILCA Members Only) drLaser article.

Shevy Gunter
Member, ILCA-NA
Editor, drLaser
I would love to see a stainless tie down sleeve introduced to the class because it would make the boat much easier to rig and outhaul adjustment would be improved as well.

Regards,

Fred Herr
 

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