2011 Rule Changes - NOT Fundamental Rule

Thread starter #1
This thread is intended to discuss the five proposed changes to the Class Rules regarding sailing of Lasers and is NOT intended for discussion of the Fundamental Rule. Please see the other thread for that!

This is the direct link to the other rule changes.

ILCA said:
011 Technical Rule Changes - Vote Now!
The deadline for all votes is 23rd September 2011. Once you have made your selection, please scroll down to the bottom of the page and click the 'Submit' button.

The following rule changes have been approved by the World Council and Advisory Council. They are now submitted to Laser Class Association members for voting. Please take a few minutes to make your vote.

The Council consider that all the changes are minor and do not affect the one design nature of the Laser. The changes are listed below together with the reasons for the change. All votes are checked with national records to confirm class membership.

Our class rules require that the voting process has to remain open for 6 months. The changes also have to be approved by ISAF. During this process some minor rewording can occur without changing the principle.

Proposed changes are underlined.

To avoid illegal votes we send the names of everyone who votes to their national Laser Association to validate that the vote is made by a current paid member. Any votes that cannot be validated are excluded. To make this validation we require some details to identify you as an ILCA member. Please complete the boxes below with your membership details.

If you wish to become a member please contact your national association. The address can be found here.

Technical Rule Changes
Mainsheet - Rule 3(c)i
Current Rule

The mainsheet shall be a single line, and be attached to the becket of the aft boom block, and then passed through the traveller block, the aft boom block, boom eye strap, forward boom block and the mainsheet block. After the mainsheet block it shall be knotted. The mainsheet shall not be controlled aft of the forward boom block except to facilitate a tack or gybe.

Proposed Change

The mainsheet shall be a single line, and be attached to the becket of the aft boom block, and then passed through the traveller block, the aft boom block, boom eye strap, forward boom block and the mainsheet block. After the mainsheet block it shall be knotted, or tied, so that the end of the mainsheet cannot pull through the mainsheet block. The mainsheet shall not be controlled aft of the forward boom block except to facilitate a tack or gybe.

Reason for change

To clarify the rule.

Rule 3(c)i Change: *
Mainsheet - Rule 3(c)ii
Current Rule

The tail of the mainsheet may also be knotted or tied to either the base of the mainsheet block, the hiking strap, the hiking strap support line, or the hiking strap shock cord.

Proposed Change

The tail of the mainsheet may also be knotted or tied to either the base of the mainsheet block, the hiking strap, the hiking strap support line, or the hiking strap shock cord. This option, if used, satisfies the knotting requirement in 3(c)i.

Reason for change

To clarify the rule. It is already an interpretation. This intepretation will be replaced by the rule change, if approved.

Rule 3(c)ii Change: *
Compass - Rule 22
Current Rule

One compass is permitted mounted on any part of the deck or the cockpit provided that the hull cavity is not pierced by anything other than the fasteners. Compasses shall not be fitted to inspection ports. Electronic and digital compasses are prohibited.

Proposed Change


Compass, Electronic Equipment and Timing Devices

(a) One compass is permitted mounted on any part of the deck or the cockpit, provided that the hull cavity is not pierced by anything other than the fasteners. Compasses shall not be fitted to inspection ports. Electronic and digital compasses are prohibited (see exception in part d).




(b) Any use of electronic equipment not specifically allowed in the rules is prohibited unless modified in the sailing instructions.




(c) Timing devices are permitted.

(d) A timing device that includes an electronic compass is permitted as long as it is worn on the wrist.

Reason for change

This is intended to make it clear that items such as radios, GPS and cameras can not be used. The exception of the wrist worn watches that include electronic compasses was added as there are now many sailing watches that include this feature but have little use as a tactical compass when wrist worn.

Rule 22 Change: *
Centreboard - Rule 14(f)
Current Rule

A tie line or shock cord shall be attached to the small hole in the upper forward corner of the centreboard, and any of the bow eye, the cunningham fairlead, the “Builder Supplied” deck block fitting and the mast to prevent loss of the centreboard in event of a capsize. The tie line or shock cord may be looped around the bow, but shall not be attached to the gunwale. Attachment can be by knots or loops in the shock cord, and/or tie lines, shackles, clips, hooks or eyes.

Proposed Change

A tie line or shock cord shall be attached to the small hole in the upper forward corner of the centreboard, and any of the bow eye, the cunningham fairlead, the “Builder Supplied” deck block fitting and the mast to prevent loss of the centreboard in event of a capsize. The tie line or shock cord may be looped around the bow, but shall not be attached to the gunwale. Attachment can be by knots or loops in the shock cord, and/or tie lines, shackles, clips, hooks or eyes. When the shock cord is attached to the bow eye it may also pass through an attachment to the “Builder Supplied” deck block fitting or the cunningham fairlead.

Reason for change

To clarify the rule.

Rule 14(f) Change: *
Clothing Weight Part 4, Rules 28 & 29
Part 4, Rules 28 6(a) and 29 6(a) amendments currently read: "For the purposes of RRS 43.1(b) the maximum total weight of competitors clothing and equipment shall be 8Kg for Radial and 7Kg for 4.7."

Proposed Change

"For the purposes of RRS 43.1(b) the maximum total weight of competitors clothing and equipment shall be 9Kg for Radial and 8Kg for 4.7". .

Reason for change

To ensure that competitors are not protested for wearing reasonable clothing that has increased in weight slightly in recent years, with the advent of modern hiking pants, etc.
Download a copy here.
 

Rob B

Active Member
#2
I voted yes for everything accept the electronics rule. I felt that making it a rule that could be implemented by clubs in their sailing instructions made unfair for those who travel. Also, I felt the way it was written left it open for clubs to make GPS type devices and/or electronic compasses legal for their events. The language, "this is not intended to include" was to vague....
 
#3
I voted NO on the electronics rule because it still prohibits the use of cameras. That is a mistake in my opinion.

The availability of small, relatively low cost waterproof cameras is potentially one of the greatest recruiting/sales tools the class might have. At a time when there is ongoing discussion about how to grow the class it just doesn't make sense to me to prohibit a such a potentially valuable marketing tool particularly when it provides no performance advantage whatsoever. In fact, you could argue the added weight of a camera could be a performance disadvantage so if someone still wants to sail with one so be it.

To paraphrase from the America's Cup jargon, do we want the Class to attract the Facebook generation of the Flintstone generation?
 
#4
I voted NO on the electronics rule because it still prohibits the use of cameras. That is a mistake in my opinion.

The availability of small, relatively low cost waterproof cameras is potentially one of the greatest recruiting/sales tools the class might have. At a time when there is ongoing discussion about how to grow the class it just doesn't make sense to me to prohibit a such a potentially valuable marketing tool particularly when it provides no performance advantage whatsoever. In fact, you could argue the added weight of a camera could be a performance disadvantage so if someone still wants to sail with one so be it.

To paraphrase from the America's Cup jargon, do we want the Class to attract the Facebook generation of the Flintstone generation?
agree 100% steve. it seems that the powers that be, the kind of folk who can hire a coach to watch and coach them all day, would prefer that your avg sailor that can't hire a coach for every regatta not have the playing field leveled just slightly by being able to analyze their performance after racing...
 
Thread starter #5
Well, voting no on this proposed rule change doesn't accomplish what you want since right now its all illegal by the Fundamental Rule - even if a local organizing authority would like to allow it.

The proposed rule change on electronics has probably been subjected to more discussion and scrutiny than any other rule change in recent memory. The rule still excludes electronic compasses because several regions of the world (including, apparently, Europe) view compasses as necessities (like a tiller) and the cost of the electronic versions prohibitively expensive (and, remember, you can buy a compass that works well here in the US for around $80). Its up to the electronic compass manufacturers to do a cost-benefit analysis and lower the prices further to get past that block.

I understand the argument regarding cameras on boats. On the other hand, the major concern is a mirror of the "this is my coach" argument: sailors/teams that have a lot of money can, conceivably, put cameras on their boats with live feeds to their coach on the water, who then has lots more information to feed back to their coachee between races. If even not a live feed, video can easily be reviewed on the water with a coach between races. The fear here is that you are not leveling the playing field but, rather, that you are creating an entirely new and potentially expensive arms race.

At the same time, in this day and age there is an ever growing need to allow for onboard cameras and digital tracking devices for media reasons at big regattas. These cameras are not sailor specific - the feeds go to the organizing authority for general use - available to all. This can be done currently by ILCA explicitly allowing (in writing) a modification to the Class Rules. The intent with the rule change is to make it easier for even smaller level regattas to allow it if they want.

In the end the strongest desire is to keep the boat and the racing as simple as possible. Explicitly allowing cameras for personal use just adds another "must have" item that no one can argue is critical for the actual racing.

Finally, nn my personal opinion this is an area that will continue to evolve with time. Eventually we will have electronic compasses. And we can't know what technology is in the pipeline that we might want to allow on the boats. But we have to strive for that balance between keeping the boat simple, trying to keep a lid on all the places that cost can get out of control while allowing for things that can be beneficial for the sport.
 
#6
Makes perfect sense Tracy, thanks for taking the time to give us more detail.

I would think it would help if additional/more in depth info such as this would serve all members interests if it were on the ILCA page with the proposed changes (or at least linked to it) as opposed to the mostly bare bones explanations that are currently there - (I know you're not responsible for what is there now)
 
#7
I understand the argument regarding cameras on boats. On the other hand, the major concern is a mirror of the "this is my coach" argument: sailors/teams that have a lot of money can, conceivably, put cameras on their boats with live feeds to their coach on the water, who then has lots more information to feed back to their coachee between races. If even not a live feed, video can easily be reviewed on the water with a coach between races. The fear here is that you are not leveling the playing field but, rather, that you are creating an entirely new and potentially expensive arms race.
but coaches can already film the whole fleet or their clients during races and review that footage between races, no? maybe im not following this argument

if someone is already getting coached, i dont see having a camera on board as making as big of a difference as someone who is not getting coached at all.

lasers are a tough game, we have to be the tactician, helm, and navigator, its tough to be evaluating yourself also and logging that info in your brain, and having to coach oneself.

i think an electronic gps, compass, camera, electronic chart plotter, etc all put together dont equate to the type of advantage that is had by having a coach watch and critique you all day, in real time, between races.
 
#8
The footage from an onboard camera(s), aka a Go-Pro Hero or equiv is going to show much more detail about the body position, body movements, rudder angle etc and even sail trim.

If that is streamed over to the coach boat, the coach has much more info to analyse/critique and offer additional changes/improvements then what he is going to see with his eyes or even his own camera
 
#9
The footage from an onboard camera(s), aka a Go-Pro Hero or equiv is going to show much more detail about the body position, body movements, rudder angle etc and even sail trim.

If that is streamed over to the coach boat, the coach has much more info to analyse/critique and offer additional changes/improvements then what he is going to see with his eyes or even his own camera
seems a little silly to write the rules based on the 5-10% of people that use coaches at events.

sailors that already have an incredible advantage based on having a coach, video or not. these are coaches that already are pretty familiar with their clients, techniques and movements. they are at the event to watch the breeze and look at big picture issues like weather, tide, fleet trends etc. they are not breaking down technique in the 20min between races. even if they were, people really think the rest of us should be punished so that these people that are already getting a huge advantage by having a coach dont get a tiny bit more of an advantage.

you could simply write a provision in the rule making it illegal to transmit data during or between races.
 
Thread starter #10
seems a little silly to write the rules based on the 5-10% of people that use coaches at events.

sailors that already have an incredible advantage based on having a coach, video or not. these are coaches that already are pretty familiar with their clients, techniques and movements. they are at the event to watch the breeze and look at big picture issues like weather, tide, fleet trends etc. they are not breaking down technique in the 20min between races. even if they were, people really think the rest of us should be punished so that these people that are already getting a huge advantage by having a coach dont get a tiny bit more of an advantage.

you could simply write a provision in the rule making it illegal to transmit data during or between races.
This is not a rule to ban only cameras on boats. It is meant to be an all encompassing electronics rule but which allows regatta organizers to make exceptions if they need to. It is also attempting to be as simple as possible and stay within the spirit of "if its not specifically allowed then its forbidden". And, if possible, you would really like to avoid getting into a long list of what is allowed versus what is disallowed since, after all, it means you will constantly be chasing technology advances.

At the end of the day, there well may be fewer people wanting to put cameras on their boats than there are coaches on the water.

Of course, if you want my opinion, during an actual regatta I think coaches are really only good for providing tow services, serving lunch and bringing a change of clothing. While none of those should be casually dismissed as not giving an "advantage" over the other sailors, at the end of the day the coached sailor still has to sail their boat to win. IMHO, where coaching really pays off is in training sessions.
 
#12
Of course, if you want my opinion, during an actual regatta I think coaches are really only good for providing tow services, serving lunch and bringing a change of clothing. While none of those should be casually dismissed as not giving an "advantage" over the other sailors, at the end of the day the coached sailor still has to sail their boat to win. IMHO, where coaching really pays off is in training sessions.
id add in a coach carrying spare parts, tiller extensions, etc as a pretty big advantage during an event, should they be needed.

the super fast guys are gonna be up there coach or no coach. id say the middle of the fleet guys have the most to gain by a good coach during an event...
 
#14
I voted NO on the electronics rule because it still prohibits the use of cameras. That is a mistake in my opinion.
Maybe it should have gone further, maybe not, maybe in future. But to vote against a good change because it does not include something else you happen to want is weird. In effect you are saying that you think nobody should be allowed the proposed changed because you want something unrelated. Why stop people e.g. using a wrist watch with a built in electronic compass because you want to be allowed to race with a camera ?

Personally I have nothing against cameras (never come across anybody wanting to use one) and I assume that there is no realtime feedback during a race from any coach as that would constitute external assistance. The coach, live feeds, support teams, etc. if not my sort of sailing and I don't come across it, not for me but that does not mean I should stop others from paying for it all. Unsure but not a change being proposed this time round anyway so maybe something to discuss in future.

Ian
 

Eric_R

D10 Secretary
#15
Maybe it should have gone further, maybe not, maybe in future. But to vote against a good change because it does not include something else you happen to want is weird. In effect you are saying that you think nobody should be allowed the proposed changed because you want something unrelated. Why stop people e.g. using a wrist watch with a built in electronic compass because you want to be allowed to race with a camera ?

Personally I have nothing against cameras (never come across anybody wanting to use one) and I assume that there is no realtime feedback during a race from any coach as that would constitute external assistance. The coach, live feeds, support teams, etc. if not my sort of sailing and I don't come across it, not for me but that does not mean I should stop others from paying for it all. Unsure but not a change being proposed this time round anyway so maybe something to discuss in future.

Ian
Mostly people are using the cameras for feedback afterward. Examples are there:


and

 
#16
So what are the other rule changes? I can only seem to access the Fundamental Rule change which I haven't made up my mind yet on. Would like to be able to read ahead the other rule changes which are just as important
 
Thread starter #17
So what are the other rule changes? I can only seem to access the Fundamental Rule change which I haven't made up my mind yet on. Would like to be able to read ahead the other rule changes which are just as important
Apparently by posting that link I sort of screwed up the overall rule vote accounting system so they set a redirect. Sorry.

The complete set of rule changes will appear in the next issue of LaserWorld which will be available as the insert to the upcoming The Laser Sailor hitting the mail soon.
 
#18
Apparently by posting that link I sort of screwed up the overall rule vote accounting system so they set a redirect. Sorry.

The complete set of rule changes will appear in the next issue of LaserWorld which will be available as the insert to the upcoming The Laser Sailor hitting the mail soon.
So does that mean that the votes made just from that link did not count? When I went through it there was no place to put my information in to verify my membership.
 

Pewit

New Member
#19
I'm a former Laser sailor now sailing sportsboats.

The skipper on the boat I usually sail on wears a headcam created with a waterproof camera with a built-in GPS attached to a cheap cycling helmet. We use it to produce entertaining videos of our good races and screw-ups and but also as a useful way to learn how not to do the screw-ups again. The cost of the cameras is about $300 on Amazon but other manufacturers are catching on and, like everything else, the price will go down.

And it's still chepaer than hiring a coach (especially if it gets posted on Sailing Anarchy!) and the camera could allow those without a full-time coach to send videos to a remote coach for expert analysis.

I also have a $10 App on my iPhone (iRegatta) which gives you all the functions of a Velocitek (and more!) incuding startline bias calculator, distance to startline, timer, polar diagrams, GPS tracking, compass, VMG, waypoints (you can even set them by using the camera to triangulate the location of a distant mark).

OK, none of the above will help if you can't sail the boat fast and make the right tactical decisions but simply banning them will enable those that can afford the coaches to remain ahead of the rest that can't - whereas the appropriate use of technology *could* help to level the "playing field".
 
#20
Hmmm, can somebody cut and paste the "other" rule changes here, so we all don't have to vote on the odd rule before even seeing the others?

Thanks
 
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