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2011 Rule Changes - Fundamental Rule

Nigrob

New Member
This may be a simplistic view, but leaving aside the rights and wrongs of whatever business laws apply, surely GS are at risk of 'cutting off their nose to spite their face'. If PSE are no longer able to manufacture and market Laser sailboats supply will be limited, the class will decline and ultimately GS will sell less sailboats - no value in holding the rights if the class dies!. I would urge the companies concerned to come to an agreement that ensures the commercial viability of both for our sakes and theirs.
 

magnum

New Member
This is a pretty simple concept. Prior to Global Sailing obtaining the ownership of the design from Bruce Kirby, all Manufacturers paid a royalty to both Bruce Kirby and ILCA and in later years ISAF as a registered international class.

To Kirby for designing a boat that we all love & to the ILCA to run the class association. As part of the ILCA's roll it was to also oversee the manufacturing of the class met with the class rules and specifications. Namely that the right materials were used in the boats, they were layed up correctly and the process of joining etc was all correct. Paul Milson was the first world measurer I believe.

I somehow Bruce Kirby was silly enough to sell the rights to Global Sailing (Spencer Family). Then all manufacturers would now owe Global sailing royalties for each boat produced.

But Global sailing is also 'Performance Sailcraft Australia' owned by the Spencer Family. PSA also owns the trademark 'Laser'.

Now if Global Sailing made the royalties that Performance Sailcraft Europe and North America had to pay a ridiculously high amount, both would possibly stop producing boats due to financial considerations. But hey then PSA would to supply the world their Lasers. A perfect and strategic solution.

Why the ILCA didn't purchase the rights from Bruce Kirby is absolutely beyond me. What you all should be calling for is the head of ILCA, at the very least that all positions of the ILCA are opened up every year for voting by members.

Think of the cost of your future boats in Europe and North America.

Laser class world domination can never be a good thing. vote YES and keep the class in the control of the ILCA...which is you...the members.

Good sailing and hike hard.
 

Deimos

Member
Now if Global Sailing made the royalties that Performance Sailcraft Europe and North America had to pay a ridiculously high amount, both would possibly stop producing boats due to financial considerations. But hey then PSA would to supply the world their Lasers. A perfect and strategic solution.
So are you saying this is what happened or is this a "theory". If fact then it would be an interesting aspect to the dispute and one which might help people form an opinion. If a theory or suspicion then we can all come up with untold numbers of outlandish ideas. Unfortunately, the lack of facts in the public domain is making people more susceptible to "theories" and I think it would help people make the best decision if more facts were made available. If question the factual aspect because you state "Now if ..." and the "if" makes me wonder.


Why the ILCA didn't purchase the rights from Bruce Kirby is absolutely beyond me. What you all should be calling for is the head of ILCA, at the very least that all positions of the ILCA are opened up every year for voting by members.

Think of the cost of your future boats in Europe and North America.
As I understand it (from memory as stated in an earlier post in this thread by Tracy), the reason is that the ILCA could not afford it - and that can be a bit of a problem when buying things.


Think of the cost of your future boats in Europe and North America.
How is this likely to impact the cost of future boats ?

Without wanting to appear paranoid, as a new member to the forum whose first post is making a very clear statement of opinion in trying to persuade people to vote in "favour of LPE", maybe it would have been appropriate to provide some background to your involvement in the class (e.g. been sailing/building Lasers for long or just an observer, etc) ?

Ian
 

magnum

New Member
So are you saying this is what happened or is this a "theory". If fact then it would be an interesting aspect to the dispute and one which might help people form an opinion. If a theory or suspicion then we can all come up with untold numbers of outlandish ideas. Unfortunately, the lack of facts in the public domain is making people more susceptible to "theories" and I think it would help people make the best decision if more facts were made available. If question the factual aspect because you state "Now if ..." and the "if" makes me wonder.




As I understand it (from memory as stated in an earlier post in this thread by Tracy), the reason is that the ILCA could not afford it - and that can be a bit of a problem when buying things.




How is this likely to impact the cost of future boats ?

Without wanting to appear paranoid, as a new member to the forum whose first post is making a very clear statement of opinion in trying to persuade people to vote in "favour of LPE", maybe it would have been appropriate to provide some background to your involvement in the class (e.g. been sailing/building Lasers for long or just an observer, etc) ?

Ian
Thanks for the reply Ian.

Obviously without being an 'insider' this is a theory, however a well formed one. You see under the previous arrangement it was illegal under the Constructors Agreement for Manufacturers to sell Lasers into other Manufacturers areas. So europe couldn't sell to Australians or Americans and vice versa.

However, this didn't stop PCA importing boats to europe by the container load. At first they were brand new, then after a few stern letters and the threat of loss of constructors licence these imports took the form of second hand boats generally sailed once.

Why on earth would european sailors what to buy Australian boats that are more expensive then european boats? Aren't they all the same? Why Australian boats over American boats? Why were Australia boats at the time considered the best in the world due to there stiffness....Seems funny that they were so much stiffer when the exact same materials were used and made the exact same way....must be due to the way of life in Australia or some other reason. One can assume some other reason.

Why would the PCA ignore the constructors agreement and sell boats to europe....simple, one can assume to make more money. Its all about money, manufacturers make boats to make money, not to help us, or a class so well established as the Laser.

As for who I am, not to sure what that has to do with common sense. I'm not Jeff Martin, PCA Europe or PCA Australia. Im a Laser sailor who is sick and tired of people entering the class I love with the sole intention of destroying it. People, who what to change the boat to their own advantage.

I have sailed the boat since I was 13. I have completed in possibly every regatta available to me, including a number of open worlds in both standard and radial. I have raced in every continent and at every level. I'm sorry that that was my first post but this has the potential to destroy the class.

Now hike harder!
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
Why the ILCA didn't purchase the rights from Bruce Kirby is absolutely beyond me. What you all should be calling for is the head of ILCA, at the very least that all positions of the ILCA are opened up every year for voting by members.
Tracy Usher, bless his heart, has stated that ILCA may have had an opportunity to buy the 'rights' (whatever they may be), but that Bruce Kirby decided that ILCA wasn't financially able to do so, and choose Global Sailing instead (see Tracy's March 30 post).

I thought about this for a bit and arrived at the following hypothesis:

Those rights may have been worth a few million bucks. Let's say $5 million. The ILCA has about 16,000 members. Divide one by the other and we end up with $300 per member. ILCA itself has less than 1 million pounds in the bank, and has been running a yearly deficit of late. Yes, it would have been so nice for ILCA to have gained the Kirby rights, but considering that most ILCA members aren't able to hand over $300, I must agree that ILCA wasn't in a position to buy Kirby's rights.

I will repeat that this is mostly speculation, but hope that the message does come across anyway.
 
However, this didn't stop PCA importing boats to europe by the container load. At first they were brand new, then after a few stern letters and the threat of loss of constructors licence these imports took the form of second hand boats generally sailed once.

Why on earth would european sailors what to buy Australian boats that are more expensive then european boats? Aren't they all the same? Why Australian boats over American boats? Why were Australia boats at the time considered the best in the world due to there stiffness....Seems funny that they were so much stiffer when the exact same materials were used and made the exact same way....must be due to the way of life in Australia or some other reason. One can assume some other reason.

Why would the PCA ignore the constructors agreement and sell boats to europe....simple, one can assume to make more money. Its all about money, manufacturers make boats to make money, not to help us, or a class so well established as the Laser.

I am pretty sure that containers of lasers were shipped from england to the us during the canada "transition" The england manufacturer had ties to east end long island. He wanted $ and had no interest in sailing lasers. From experience the boats delivered from ireland, california, brazil were inferior based on my personal memories.
 
Wow... the last post was only to be two or so lines. The point that I wanted to share was that as a Laser Dealer,( bill to and ship to was the same) we received a number of boats from alot of different manufacturing sites and the boats were are all the same except colors.

$ drives everything. Lasers were being imported by a local non "autherized dealer" from England, this was 50 miles from the autherized dealer for North America. It was a un-enforceable situation.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
I've had time recently to think about this topic a bit.

Whilst I doubt any patents exist on the boat design and potentially never did. What Global Sailing purchased from Kirby Inc with the Intellectual Design Rights of the boats which is essentially ownership of the Builder’s Manual. As owners of the Intellectual Design Rights, it's up to them who have access to the Builder’s Manual and a licence to build the boats. The Builder’s Manual is a living book, the boats and it's components are constantly changing to keep up with material changes (try buying cutting edge 1960 fibreglass resin these days, it's been superseded multiple times), the deck profile has changed, sail shape, etc, it is a very different book which was given back to the builders in the early 70's, so it’s not something which can be dated and extinguished because it’s 40 years old.

Global Sailing appears to have legally purchased from Kirby Inc, the Intellectual Design Rights of the Builder’s Manual, with that usually goes any existing agreements with third parties i.e. builder’s agreements. Whilst it might have been good for the ILCA to have purchased the Design Rights, they have indicated that they couldn’t afford it. However, the proposed rule changes from how I’m seeing it, effectively steals the Builder’s Manual away from its owners and gives it to both ISAF and the ILCA, no longer will Royalties need to be paid to the owner of the Intellectual Design. Is the ILCA potentially opening itself up for a court case? If the ILCA thought that the Intellectual Design Rights or anything else, were now all extinguished, why were they willing to purchase them from Kirby Inc.? Whilst the Builders Manual is currently registered with ISAF and from my understanding need to approve changes to it along with the ILCA. However, ISAF does not own the book, just like your regional government road department doesn't own your car, but it still needs to be registered with them for you to drive it on their roads.

Further, is it in the classes’ best interest to let ISAF control who builds boats in the future. Are we going to see licences handed out to whoever wants to build the boats? Some may argue that’s a good thing, but it also makes policing of the compliance to the Builder’s Manual more difficult. ISAF already controls where World Championships occur in some years, control whether the Master’s gain access to the boats afterwards for their Worlds etc, which has already resulted in Masters Worlds (2007 and appears may occur again in 2011-12) being moved to different locations and impacts on the number of charter boats available.

I suspect this dispute is between Laser Performance refusal to pay royalties to the new owners of the Intellectual Design (i.e. Global Sailing) and may well been the result of individual purchasing lasers from Performance Sailcraft Australia and then shipping them into the regions where Laser Performance holds the licence to supply boats.

In essence, this is a legal issue to be sorted out between Laser Performance and Global Sailing, they need to sort it out, if need be in a court. It appears that the supply of boats is not currently threatened, however, it appears that the ILCA is proposing rule changes that takes advantage of the situation and will result in the ILCA/ISAF becoming the ones who decide who can build boats and effectively stealing the Intellectual Design rights of the class away from the current owners.

The above is personal opinion and is largely speculation, I seriously don’t think we have enough information at this stage to vote on the issue. The ILCA has provided some background information, which appears extremely biased towards the ILCA and ISAF gaining the most benefit, but we are far from getting the whole story.
 

Tillerman

Member
ISAF Regulation 10.3 says

10.3 There shall be an executed agreement between the ISAF Ltd., the Class/Owners
Association and where relevant the Trademark, Trade Name and the Copyright
Owner. This agreement shall include at a minimum the following matters:

(a) define, if any, the ownership of the Copyright, Trade Name and Trademark and
establish the rights granted and the responsibilities, obligations and restrictions
that apply to the use of such rights generally and among the parties to the
agreement;

(b) where a licensed builder system is to be adopted, establish the procedure for
granting licences and the control of the licensed builders.
I suspect it would help Laser class members to understand this issue better if the ILCA would explain to us what is in that agreement.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
I fully agree.

Global Sailing purchased something which appeared at the time to have an intrinsic value which the ILCA was also interested in purchasing. Maybe what Global Sailing purchased no longer had a value, in which case it was a stupid purchase, but it was still something which the ILCA also thought had a value otherwise they wouldn't have considered purchasing it. But it seems that the change in the class rules will result in what Global Sailing purchased, will have no value irrespective of whether it currently has a value or not.
 

gouvernail

Super Opinionated and Always Correct
The above flurry of posts suggests Stockholm Syndrome remins our best explanation for the ILCA behavior.

Currently the rules demand builders at least consider the welfare of the designer.

ILCA has offered an option for where we can vote in new rules where our abusers can maintian their monopoly status while parting with even less of their pirate booty.

We better make certain we stick with the pirates who steal an extra $400 as each sail passes through their hands or we may have to suffer the occasional inconvenience of measurement.

The thought that some builder who wants our business and would agree to heavily promote and support the game of Lasering in exchange for "class approval" of its product remains incomprenhensible to our leaders who continue to exhibit their irrational love for their abusers.

As many of us have said understand the situation:
The ONLY power anyone has to stop the class from negotiating with wannabe builders is the copyright on the Laser and the starburst.

Who cares what names and logos we use??? It is the boat and the game we play that matters.

OH but those other potential builders of a boat we would approve would NEVER treat us as well as those who currently hold us captive.
 

LooserLu

LooserLu
ILCA, your silence is deafening...
Haha! So true, 'LQT420'!

But to the other side, as being waiting now more than 4 weeks for the "~"promised* additional infos of the so called "out of the box"-boat-builders .... but NO infos are made published, anywhere, until now!!

I'm afraid, the opposite-party of ILCA "shoot oneself in the foot" (At GER we say: They shot oneself an "Eigentor")!!
Till now: there is no additional "Q&A"-webside either of the ILCA or any of both involved Laser-shipyards at UK /Australia !!!!!!!!!!!

So, where is the additional "independend"-information to get neutral knowledge for us "common/legal permitted to vote ILCA-members" to vote serious for "Y. o. N" on this heavy issue??!?Hmmm?!!
It seems to me, the press-media sections of "LP"(Gavel Securities) and "PSA"(Global Sailing) are "sort of low-level "amateurs"/"not on olympic"-level", in the moment... :p

{*:
...view last sentence of the this post of the CEO of PSA/Austraila, Chris Caldecoat (aka TLF Member: "87607"):
http://www.laserforum.org/showpost.php?p=154146&postcount=27
"... There is much more coming on this story, either vote NO or wait for more information. ..."
Is he make us common members, out of the Aussi-Continent, to be a 'dude'????!!!!!!!!!! It seems to me so!!!

"G'-Day", Chris, are you sleeping well??

and:
...view the last sentence of WC Member T.U. (aka TLF Member:"SFBayLaser") 2011-April-01 (surely not an April's fools joke of him!):
http://www.laserforum.org/showpost.php?p=154315&postcount=94

"...I know, that ILCA is hoping to put together a Q&A page to help answer questions people are asking. I'm hoping they can have something available by next week...."

In my own Opinion, now: Jeff, the most ISAF-honoured Executive Officer of the ILCA at the UK sure has beento busy to help the Royals "Will and Kate" at their today's wedding ... hahahahaha! }

3 big "Hip Hip Hurra!" today to: "Will and Katie!" Well done!! Do they sail Laser, from the Danish couple of "crown prince and princess" I know they sail well and she (from Australia!!) sails better than the Danish crown-prince...hahah) ??
(I would wish, we at GER would have such a cute bridal pair @ GER's former royal family here!!)

Cheers from GER to you all and have all successful weekend races on your Laser (as long it still is called "a Laser" ;) )

LooserLu
P.S.: Directly Mr. Wesley W. Whitmyer, Jr. of St. Onge Steward Johnson & Reens, LLC, I 'm not afraid of YOU (and your here secretly viewing staff)... never!! Greetings of Europe, hahaha!!
 

magnum

New Member
The question that the ILCA is asking you is;

Would you (via the ILCA) like to make the decisions on how and where the boats are made and the quality of the product and therefore cost, or would you like a private company who doesn't actually have any involvement in the class make these decisions on your behalf?

I know which way I would vote.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
Who is this "private company who doesn't actually have any involvement in the class make these decisions on your behalf" you talk of?
 

magnum

New Member
Global Sailing...Sorry I should clarify. Rather then saying 'no involvement in the class' I should have said 'no involvement in making the class better' or 'no involvement other then just purchasing the Patents from Mr. Bruce Kirby' or 'no involvement other then making money from building boats'.

Take you pick from the above. I really can't see how there is so much debate about this. YOU are the ILCA...that's right YOU. Go and look in the mirror and say 'I'am the ILCA' over and over again...It will sink in I promise.

When you pay your membership every year you become a member of the ILCA. The ILCA is made up of both people who work full time for the class (paid) and people who volunteer for the class. People like you, in fact you are one AlanD (ILCA Class Measurer). Sure we all have had complaints re the ILCA (Like why they were so intent on putting world championships in 3rd world countries, or why there was soooo much money in the bank). But at the end of the day, these people work for the good of the class, to make the class stronger and better and to most of all protect the class.

Its a no brainer.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
I strongly disagree that PSA/GS, the management and owners are not interested in making the class better.

For starters, Chris is also a person who competes in lasers. From my discussions with him in the past, his production staff and Chris himself are qualified boat builders or in the process of gaining those qualifications, many of whom sail. Chris was employed because of the expertise he brought with him from much more high tech boat building. His staff are not just some bloke that has been employed to lay fibreglass as if it's a bathtub as with LP’s production staff. Chris from my understanding has been pushing for improvements in the way which the other factories around the world produce their boats, whilst still remaining within the methods and procedures contained within the builders manual and this includes staff exchanges between the factories so that we all get a better product. Note the Australian build boats are considered better by many than the ones built elsewhere. On top of this, the factory is present at most of the larger events with spares, accessories, charter boats etc and are regular sponsors of regattas or at least provide products for raffle or prizes. The Spencer family who own PSA & GS have been involved in the class for an extremely long time, I suspect they actually set up the original Australian factory back in the mid 70's (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Essentially the only product PSA makes is the original Laser which is supplied into a very small market in our region (i.e. Aust, NZ and a few pacific nations), we don’t have Laser 3000 etc in Australia, it’s in PSA best interest to support the class and make the best possible product and keep the class as strong as possible.

Now look at the ILCA, who really are the members of the class association. Have we done the class harm by not only rejecting replica gear? Have we let people compete in the class using replica gear or turned a blind eye to it? Replica gear is only in the market because someone's buying it and using it, one can to somewhat understand sails but mast plugs, battens, rudders & centreboards etc? When the class became Olympic, we handed much of the control of our destination to ISAF, every 2 years they dictate where the worlds are to be held, despite that I don’t see many hosts which would be considered third world Australia, Canada, Croatia, France, Italy, Korea, Japan, New Zealand, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, UK and USA even Brasil, South Africa and Thailand are far from being third world countries despite their social / economic problems. Was the ILCA working in our best interest when they gave control of the class to ISAF and does ISAF always have the Laser Class best interests in all their decision making.

Don’t get me wrong, PSA does get things wrong and they have spent many hours correcting issues in bulk (radial bottom sections, hiking straps, Centreboards etc) so I doubt they look forward to me looking at their product. They now make a very good product albeit relatively expensive, but to say they (and GS) don’t have any interest in making the class better is completely wrong.
 

Deimos

Member
Global Sailing...Sorry I should clarify. Rather then saying 'no involvement in the class' I should have said 'no involvement in making the class better' or 'no involvement other then just purchasing the Patents from Mr. Bruce Kirby' or 'no involvement other then making money from building boats'.
I would expect GS to really want the class to do well because the better the class does, the more money they will make. Of course companies are driven by profits not philanthropic motives, but ignoring the "extremes", more successful class=more boats=more profit.

But the strange question is, why have the ILCA failed to provide any additional information. They must have loads more details (because they could never have responsible proposed the changes based on just what they have published). So big outcry calling for more info and we are just ignored. And that must in itself prompt the question "who are the class officers answerable to ?" because it does not appear to be them membership.

Ian
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
I would expect GS to really want the class to do well because the better the class does, the more money they will make. Of course companies are driven by profits not philanthropic motives, but ignoring the "extremes", more successful class=more boats=more profit.

But the strange question is, why have the ILCA failed to provide any additional information. They must have loads more details (because they could never have responsible proposed the changes based on just what they have published). So big outcry calling for more info and we are just ignored. And that must in itself prompt the question "who are the class officers answerable to ?" because it does not appear to be them membership.

Ian
Fully agree with you Ian on both points.
 

gouvernail

Super Opinionated and Always Correct
Anybody read the 2011 handbook??

Would you be bothered if the rule change upon which the class website says we have until September 23 to cast a vote is already published as effective January 1, 2011??

If somebody made this up you wouldn't believe the story.
 

LooserLu

LooserLu
Anybody read the 2011 handbook??

Would you be bothered if the rule change upon which the class website says we have until September 23 to cast a vote is already published as effective January 1, 2011??

If somebody made this up you wouldn't believe the story.
gouv, here is the related page that I just directly scanned out of the new 2011 Laser Handbook (I got it a few weeks ago).
Interesting is: The text as printed here in the 2011 Laser Handbook for the "Definition of a Builder" is in some words not the same as it is printed in the "Laser World" 2011 March issue! In the text of the 2011 Handbook the first sentence differs from that what at the Laser Word, page 5, is pubished as to be the original valid text. And now?????!!!!????
(Addition: In another TLF-thread at the TLF News Section gouv hints to differences between the original rules text at the fundamental rule related to "Definition of a Builder" compared to the 2011 and 2010 Laser Handbook. In the Laser World March 2011 issue is written for the original valid rules text the version like of the 2010 Laser Handbook. This makes the confusion perfect to me... I am sure this mistakes have no influence to the in future valid 2012 rules version but it is a matter of "doing your exercises correct" to pubilsh the actual correct valid versions at the 2011 Laser handbook and Laser World Magazine of March 2011.)


Cheers from GER to you all and have all successful weekend races on your Laser (as long it still is called "a Laser" ;) )

LooserLu
P.S.: Directly Mr. Wesley W. Whitmyer, Jr. of St. Onge Steward Johnson & Reens, LLC, I 'm not afraid of YOU (and your here secretly viewing staff)... never!! Greetings of Europe, hahaha!!
 

Attachments

Deimos

Member
Me thinks I was wrong to join the class. For ages I did not (having been very unimpressed with the Class Association in the country I lived at the time). But I believe in supporting the class associations (you play the sport so you should support the sport, etc.). Clearly I threw my money down the drain as it seems the class officers have no interest in the membership. Everybody wanted more information, it was said there will be a Q&A and still nothing. People have been pressured into VOTE[ing] NOW based on what may be incomplete information yet they have voted and their votes still stand and still it seems the class officers have "left the planet".

Even a statement that along the lines "we are collecting more information and statements from the all interested parties ... and will publish by <date>" would help. But silence. I cannot see myself renewing my membership.

(Was planing to sell the Laser this season (I was going to switch to a Solo) but I'm giving it another year but it seems just completely disorganised and these officers are spending our money).

Ian
 

Tillerman

Member
Anybody read the 2011 handbook??

Would you be bothered if the rule change upon which the class website says we have until September 23 to cast a vote is already published as effective January 1, 2011??

If somebody made this up you wouldn't believe the story.
It's actually even more weird than gouvernail implies. The wording of Definition of Builder published in the 2011 Handbook is neither the wording in the old 2010 Rules or that in the proposed new rule. It is a third version.

The old rule says that a builder must have "a building agreement from Bruce Kirby or Bruce Kirby Inc. to build the Laser"

The proposed new rule deletes the quoted words entirely.

But the version in the 2011 handbook replaces the words in quotes with a requirement that a builder must have "a building agreement from the design rights holder. to build the Laser". (That unnecessary period after "holder" really is there in the text in the handbook.)

Can someone please explain why this change was made?
 

gouvernail

Super Opinionated and Always Correct
Publication and explanations go with the act of admitting errors and asking for forgiveness and for making plans to correct errors and installation of policies to prevent future errors.

Silence is a tool for those who are strealthfully participating in fraud and deceit.
 

LooserLu

LooserLu
Publication and explanations go with the act of admitting errors and asking for forgiveness and for making plans to correct errors and installation of policies to prevent future errors.

Silence is a tool for those who are strealthfully participating in fraud and deceit.
However, ‘gouv’, for me, in my own opinion: the ILCA's voting on to change the F.R. in the moment completely is "extraneous" / "irrelevant". The only laws that in this issue are valid, are the so called "int. trade laws". That there is no added information of the so called "out of the box boat"-builders or "ILCA's" int. class office or members of the board of the int. class (ILCA) is definitely cased by the lawyers. Anyway, there are still some 10.000's of active sailors on this globe that still and in future will sail their own or club owned "Laser"(C)/(TM) Dinghy. Nothing will change this, in future. The actual issue only is an issue between the so called "out of the box boat"-builders (or their related holding companies ->"business is war", as the Japanese managers always secretly say). There is nothing to make us, the many thousand common Laserites to be afraid of. Perhaps, and the likelihood is low, for the Olympics only there will be a change for the boat, but who of us here at TLF is really a professional athlete that still is on his/her successful way to join the 2012 or 2016 Olympic Games... hm?? You may vote "no" or "yes" or what ever... Not you decide of the future of the "LASER" but a lawsuit between LP and PSA (or Gavel Securities vs. Global Sailing) based on the int. trade laws.

Hike hard and stay wet! And:

Cheers from GER to you all and have all successful weekend races on your Laser (as long it still is called "a Laser" )

LooserLu
P.S.: Directly Mr. Wesley W. Whitmyer, Jr. of St. Onge Steward Johnson & Reens, LLC, I 'm not afraid of YOU (and your here secretly viewing staff)... never!! Greetings of Europe, hahaha!!
 

magnum

New Member
The class is only strong because it is a strict one design class, no out of the box builders, only builders that for the good of the class built identical boats so your boat has a $ worth long into the future. The international Laser class measurer actually travelled to the factories and witnessed the boat being constructed to ensure the class was identical.

Now that aside, it absolutely amazes me that you people are considering handing over all power and the value of your investment to someone you have never met, never spoken to and never heard of prior to this event.

As mentioned previously the ILCA is you, you elect member to you local region, then to the national body then to your regional body. These are people who sail the boats, who do this as a volunteer, because they love the boat like you.

Who are you to think that the ILCA is reading posts on here!!?? If you have an issue, or require something to be explained further write to them.

Finally, Chris Caldecoat however well placed his intentions is not Global Sailing, he is an employee of PSA. Someone who could be gone tomorrow.

The reasoning of some of the posts here is mind numbing.
 

gouvernail

Super Opinionated and Always Correct
As is yours. What the hell are you trying to tell us?? Which way would you vote and why?? Or would you like the vote to be about some other available options??


Personally?? I would have the class change itself from a pawn of the builders to an organization fiuunded by the 15,000 of us who would like to be able to buy a high quality playtoy.

The class is perfectly capable of certifying builders and, as the design rights are now non- existent, we no nonger need to tie the 15,000 of us to any of those who are currently in the business of building our toys.

If I had my way, the class would assemble a group of us who are capable of inspecting and certifying potential builders and open the contest for our business up to the world market.

Simply put:

The class can offer three year renewable contracts and protected supply regions to any buiilder who our oversight comittee believes can best supply our needs.

The ONLY restriction against doing that is the Laser trademark issue. The game would have to be renamed while we wait for the trademarked name laser to become worthless as an intellectual property.

So what!!!

We can call our boats Poop Pots for all I care. The builders lost my loyalty when they got caught siphoning off $400 per sail just to pass them though their Laser trademarked hands.

Does Walmart want to market our official ILCA toys?? We all know Walmart could sell toys ust like our lasers for under $1000 and things like our plastic gudgeons could be on the shelves for $1.99 a pair.... with screws included.

The Stockholm Syndrome has gone far enough and hurt us for long enough.

.
 

Dr._Loser

From 3# World
I wolud like to read a letter of the authorities ( Heini and/or Jeff ) to the Laserites in the next issue of the magazine Laser World.

NOT BLA BLA BLA BLA.....this is what we know.......................

We are speaking about contracts, trademark laws , Euros, Dollars, Yens. Pounds............. and who remembers the laserites???

Are they ( Heini & Jeff ) the owners of the ILCA ?........it seems to me.


HEINI, HURRY UP !!!!!.............October 21st is the end of the world !!!!!!

Link:
http://9point.li9r.com/2011/05/date-for-end-of-world-has-changed-its.html
 

Tillerman

Member
I wolud like to read a letter of the authorities ( Heini and/or Jeff ) to the Laserites in the next issue of the magazine Laser World.
I would like to read a response on the Laser Forum today from Heini and/or Jeff to the many issues about this rule change that have been raised here.

I would like to read on the Laser Forum today the "Q&A page to help answer questions people are asking" that Tracy Usher said on April 1 that ILCA was "hoping to put together" and that he hoped would be available by "next week" (i.e. 6 weeks ago.)

I would like to read on the Laser Forum, over the next few weeks, an open, frank and honest exchange about this rule change between the officers of ILCA and the interested members of ILCA, like myself.

Is that too much to ask?
 

sorosz

Member
In the June Sail magazine is a piece on the issue titled "Laser Fracas" (attached). The last paragraph says:

"ILCA officials declined to comment on record, saying the text on the class web site explains its position in full."

It looks like further information will not be forthcoming.
 

Attachments

Merrily

Administrator
In the June Sail magazine is a piece on the issue titled "Laser Fracas" (attached). The last paragraph says:

"ILCA officials declined to comment on record, saying the text on the class web site explains its position in full."

It looks like further information will not be forthcoming.
These guys spent $100,000 of Laser Class money on a lawsuit without getting the class members' opinion first. Now they want to ram their selection through with no discussion. I'm angry. They are behaving as dictators, but of course, they only have our good in mind and they love the class more than anyone else. Give me a break! People are going to vote with their feet.
 

Tillerman

Member
I have been trying to approach this issue with some respect for our elected leadership and appointed staff, on the assumption (which I still think is true) that they are acting in what they perceive to be the best interests of the class and the members. But if it really is true that the ILCA officers believe that "the text on the class web site explains (the ILCA) position in full," then I guess I will just have to vote NO to the rule change. The current statement on the website doesn't convince me of the need for a rule change - not to mention that it still includes one crucial statement that Bruce Kirby has said is untrue.

I am not going to vote until September. I could still be convinced to vote YES if our officers would answer our questions and explain the case for the rule change more completely.
 

SFBayLaser

Member
These guys spent $100,000 of Laser Class money on a lawsuit without getting the class members' opinion first. Now they want to ram their selection through with no discussion. I'm angry. They are behaving as dictators, but of course, they only have our good in mind and they love the class more than anyone else. Give me a break! People are going to vote with their feet.

I did not know there was a lawsuit either in progress or planned, can you give more details? Also, I have not been told that the legal bill was in the 6 figure range. Admittedly, the last accounting I saw was at the last World Council meeting this past February where it was still in the range of 4 figures, though by now I'm sure its passed into the 5 figure range. From my point of view, given that ILCA's annual budget on the order of $500,000, it would seem to be in line given the seriousness of the situation (and, as well, one of the reasons to have the surplus that ILCA has maintained over the years).

Anyway, having said the above, I am also disappointed that ILCA chose, in the end, to not directly address questions further. I generally believe that more information is always better than less information, when its possible to give accurate information and not just speculate. However, I can't say that if I were in their position, with the advice given them, I might not come to the same conclusion they did.

What I don't understand is why some people want to direct their anger at ILCA. Two companies have a conflict which they appear unable to resolve after many months (years?) of dispute. The situation has reached a critical point and in very short order the factory that builds over 60% of the Lasers sold each year (and whose parent company is responsible for something like 85-90% of world production) will have to stop building boats. Instead of resolving the conflict the warring parties have tried to place ILCA squarely in the middle (successfully it would seem). To try to prevent the conflict from affecting the game of Laser sailing the ILCA proposes a rule change which will allow approved builders to continue building boats. Since the builders (apparently, by other articles that have appeared online) have contracts with the IP rights holder, the warring parties can continue to work to resolve their conflict - presumably through the legal system - while we continue to go sailing. Why is ILCA the bad guy here? Would you prefer ILCA do nothing and simply wait for the end of Laser sailing as we know it?

Also, ILCA will not be capable of answering all the questions raised here, they would only be able to speculate. For example, why did LPE stop paying royalties? Remember that LPE has been owned by the same person for some dozen years now, why the sudden decision to stop payments after a decade of making them? One could speculate on all sorts of reasons, ranging from a bad hangover to balking at proposed changes by the IP rights holder. However, these are questions for LPE and/or Global Sailing - and good luck getting the real story on that one. We are just never going to know who the real bad guy was here.

One could also ask why this entire issue has not been resolved through legal means a long time ago. After all, we have read a nice article where Bruce Kirby pointed out that there were contracts between the IP rights holder and the builders and one might think that a violation of the contract would result in a lawsuit between the parties (e.g. look at Samsung and Apple going at each other right now). Since ILCA is not priviliged to these contracts, they can do no more than speculate (as I'm doing here) on them. But one has to wonder why,if these contracts and/or rights are so powerful, this whole thing wasn't settled a very long time ago.

Final thought: maybe I'm misunderstanding, by why would one presume that those with a vested financial interest in the outcome, and who are not active Laser sailors, be more benevolent than a retired businessman who actively races a Laser and who volunteers a considerable amount of his time to the ILCA?
 

Deimos

Member
ILCA has consulted lawyers using class funds. We (the membership) effectively "own" the class. Thus we "own" the legal advice. Thus, that advice should be made available to the membership (as it belongs to us).

Personally I am quite disgusted with the Class. Took me a long time to join but I will be leaving a lot quicker. I was going to switch to the Solo this year but I do love Laser sailing so decided to give it another year - but with organisation like this ... I think I will be joining the FIFA as by comparison it seems a transparent and open organisation accountable to its membership and prepared to ... (at least in comparison to the ILCA).

Do those people running the class think they own the class. They seem to act as though they have been handed a dictatorship.

How easy is it to initiate a vote of no confidence in the Class Officers - as it seems this might be the only way to establish what is really behind this vote. I am now totally convinced that there is far more to this than we are being told and the only explanations for further information not being provided are because such information would jeopardise the vote from going the way the class officers want.

Like others, as things stand I will be voting NO - if only because the Class Officers have convinced me they are hiding lots of stuff and are failing to even recognise that the membership s relevant.

Ian
 

Deimos

Member
What I don't understand is why some people want to direct their anger at ILCA.
Because the iLCA is meant to be accountable to the membership - yet choses to ignore them, to behave as though only they know what is best for the class and fail to provide adequate details for anybody to make an informed decision. There are important questions that they should provide further information on - yet just ignore everybody. Not good attitude to membership. I will be leaving the class association come next subscription renewal.

Since ILCA is not priviliged to these contracts, they can do no more than speculate (as I'm doing here) on them.
Yet the ILCA lawyers (who also have not seen these contracts apparently claim that they are ineffective. So how come they know so much about those contracts The lawyers also informed us that the Kirby design patents had in fact expired. So why can't we see that legal advice. How come they know things the class has no access to ? These are valid questions and deserve an answer as those answers are very relevant to the validity of the action the class is proposing.


If anybody thinks Global Sailing will just walk away with a shrug of their shoulders when the ILCA decides to exclude them from royalties they spent a large amount of money purchasing the rights to - then those people are exceptionally naive about business. The ILCA is opening a massive can of worms with themselves in the middle and potentially getting themselves mixed-up is massive court actions over an extended period. And even if found clear, such actions will cost the membership vast amounts of legal fees. Of course, information available to the Class Officers but not provided to the membership might suggest other outcomes - but ho can we make an informed decision without even knowing if that information even exists, let alone what that information is ?

Ian
 
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