1965 Sunfish Repair advice needed

[carpediem27]

I have a 65 sunfish that has 2 things that I know of that need to be fixed before operation and I appreciate all and any advice.

1) The brass down hull hardware(bottom rudder clip) was missing(have a replacement) and I need to learn how to refasten it to the hull. Is it a special type of bolt/screw? Will I need to cut an access hole to replace wood backing? Should I epoxy the bolt in there? I really don't know the correct way to fasten it, please advise.

2) The deck right by the cockpit has a crack in the gelcoat about 6 inches in(along the seem where the cockpit meets the deck, probably dropped or something hit it too hard) and there is a little give on that side. Should I reinforce from underneath inside the cockpit with fiberglass? Or is there a better way to do it? If I just fix the crack from above it will eventually crack in the same place or crack more along that seem.

Thanks to all

 

[Pat75]

I'm not sure about the backing block, but you probably shouldn't use epoxy because you won't be able to remove it if you upgrade/convert to a gudgeon type rudder. (you may want to consider this now.) But remember not to tighten the plate all the way because it needs to have some play to get the rudder unhooked.

It depends on what you want to do with the boat, but I would recommend doing the conversion. I have the old system and I'm tired of it, so my opinion may be skewed. You could cut the access port to install the gudgeon. There should be lots of posts and pictures on the conversion available. There is even a conversion kit available:
http://www.apsltd.com/c-2388-rudder-and-replacement-parts.aspx

Also, if you can fiberglass that spot, I say go for it.

Good luck.

 

[signal charlie]

Hi carpediem,

I have a 65 sunfish that has 2 things that I know of that need to be fixed before operation and I appreciate all and any advice.

Q: 1) The brass down hull hardware(bottom rudder clip) was missing(have a replacement) and I need to learn how to refasten it to the hull. Is it a special type of bolt/screw? Will I need to cut an access hole to replace wood backing? Should I epoxy the bolt in there? I really don't know the correct way to fasten it, please advise.

A:A bronze or stainless screw will work, find one that fits snugly in the keel plate hole about an inch long.
-Screw it into old hole and see if it holds firmly. If it does, yay, you're done!
-If not, get a straightened paper clip and probe around inside the hole to see if there is any wood left, the hole might just be oversized or the backer may be rotted. If you think there is some dry backer block left, remove and try glueing up a dowel with epoxy and inserting it into screw hole. If you are lucky there might be enough wood left for contact. Let it dry, drill a pilot hole and screw in keel plate. Sail.
-If block is gone, you have to access the inside of hull. AMF craftsman would have removed the trim and split the deck/hull seam on stern and all the way up to aft edge of cockpit to get inside for repairs, conversions and foam replacement. Unless you have 50 clamps to reglue it, think about an inspection port. With a port you can access the all the blocks. Your port will need to be off center, so you don't cut into fiberglass hanger and block for rudder deck plate, about halfway between deck plate and edge trim. You might get into the foam block as you get close to port or starboard side, that is OK. I'd cut a finger size hole and feel around in there before making a big hole.
Once inside you'll see a fiberglass hump along the keel, your backer block is underneath. Cut the fiberglass away and try to save block if it is dry, you can just flip it around and reuse it. Clean the inside of hull up, make a new backer plate from fiberglass and epoxy block and plate back into keel. Install port and sail.

Here is a link to step by step for rudder conversion that has pictures of a lot of the steps. Caution: We cut through deck backer block because we were converting the rudder and didn't care if deck backer was destroyed. You want to avoid that. An off center hole will give you access to deck backer also.

http://smallboatrestoration.blogspot.com/2013/05/sunfish-rudder-conversion.html

Q: 2) The deck right by the cockpit has a crack in the gelcoat about 6 inches in(along the seem where the cockpit meets the deck, probably dropped or something hit it too hard) and there is a little give on that side. Should I reinforce from underneath inside the cockpit with fiberglass? Or is there a better way to do it? If I just fix the crack from above it will eventually crack in the same place or crack more along that seem.

Thanks to all

A: 2) Can you post a picture? Answer will depend on how nice the rest of the deck looks. Going in through cockpit wall is one option. Another is fairing crack a bit, inserting fiberglass backer and rebuilding glass. You do NOT want to split a seam close to cockpit, I've been told it is near impossible to get deck/hull realigned correctly and there is too much structural stuff going on in that area.

Have fun,
Kent

 

[minifish2]

I have the same cracks you are talking about, on a mid-60's boat and also on a newer one I picked up used. I know the prior owner well on the newer boat and I know exactly what caused the cracks - a big sailor sitting down hard, on the cockpit edge (and in his case lways too far back, so the corner there was stressed) especially during tacks. You see that too often, and it's effect - that thin crack above the cockpit support seam, Right above and even with the underneath edge of the cockpit lip.

I haven't fixed either but every time I see them I mean to. My thought is to first extend out the support a bit underneath the lip with a strip of course glass cloth and resin along under the crack. The boats will have to be upside down and I'll work from underneath for the gravity assist in keeping the strip in place. Then maybe I will use some West System epoxy thickened some with their filler to make a paste (their fairing-type compound mixture) and slather that over the glass repair strip to give some bulk and distribute the stress load a tad.

After that's hardened I'll hopefully fill the deck cracks, either with MarineTex or if I'm ambitious, matching Gelcoat.

For the rudder, if it were my boat I would upgrade to the new rudder system first thing. However if this is just a casual-use boat and conditions are usually tame you could make the repair. I might dip the screw in 3M marine sealant (4200 if you want to someday remove it, 5200 for more permanent), also shoot some sealant into the hole, and try that. I've also dipped the screw in MarineTex for that sort of thing, but that will be really permanent. If you are going to put in a port on the stern deck to replace the wood, I would go with Pat75's advice just do the conversion.

 

[carpediem27]

Thanks for the advice so far I truly appreciate it. I will get a few pictures of the crack tonight and try to determine if the rudder hardware backer board is rotted. Hopefully I can just epoxy a dowel in there.... I ordered an deck plate just in case I need to get in there, and from what I've read I probably want to add the deck plate anyway.

It also came with gudgeon type rudder and I would only need to get the conversion bracket. However since it is such an old boat and I have the bought the part I was trying to keep it original. Is this bad logic, will I be wishing that I did the conversion right away? I'm not a sailor(hopefully someday) and this project is for my 13 year old daughter, so I really don't have a clue which rudder to utilize.

 

[signal charlie]

Old style rudder good for old style sailors It is classic but can pop loose in high winds/heeling. Are y'all planning that any time soon? Now I wish we had kept ours original, we have 3 boats and could have taken out a new style rudder on higher wind days, keep old style for lighter winds. If you are cognizant of wind conditions, old style works fine. Try it out for a bit, then decide. We sailed old style for years in windy Corpus Christi with no issues.

Fair winds,
Kent

 

[carpediem27]

I have the same cracks you are talking about, on a mid-60's boat and also on a newer one I picked up used. I know the prior owner well on the newer boat and I know exactly what caused the cracks - a big sailor sitting down hard, on the cockpit edge (and in his case lways too far back, so the corner there was stressed) especially during tacks. You see that too often, and it's effect - that thin crack above the cockpit support seam, Right above and even with the underneath edge of the cockpit lip.

I haven't fixed either but every time I see them I mean to. My thought is to first extend out the support a bit underneath the lip with a strip of course glass cloth and resin along under the crack. The boats will have to be upside down and I'll work from underneath for the gravity assist in keeping the strip in place. Then maybe I will use some West System epoxy thickened some with their filler to make a paste (their fairing-type compound mixture) and slather that over the glass repair strip to give some bulk and distribute the stress load a tad.

After that's hardened I'll hopefully fill the deck cracks, either with MarineTex or if I'm ambitious, matching Gelcoat.

You have described the crack perfectly... and thanks for the thoughts on how to fix, sounds like the direction I want to go to fix it. Should I reinforce the other side that doesn't have the crack while I'm at it? I don't think it will ever have that heavy of a sailor on it(while I own it at least), but is it a common problem?

For the rudder, if it were my boat I would upgrade to the new rudder system first thing. However if this is just a casual-use boat and conditions are usually tame you could make the repair. I might dip the screw in 3M marine sealant (4200 if you want to someday remove it, 5200 for more permanent), also shoot some sealant into the hole, and try that. I've also dipped the screw in MarineTex for that sort of thing, but that will be really permanent. If you are going to put in a port on the stern deck to replace the wood, I would go with Pat75's advice just do the conversion.

It will be a casual use boat, but you never know if my daughter will want to start racing. My wife says that the older sunfishes are too heavy to race(I'm a non sailor, she raced all through growing up), so should I even be concerned with this particular boat's rudder style?

What's the downside of the old style rudder? Is she going to have problems with it?

 

[carpediem27]

Old style rudder good for old style sailors It is classic but can pop loose in high winds/heeling. Are y'all planning that any time soon? Now I wish we had kept ours original, we have 3 boats and could have taken out a new style rudder on higher wind days, keep old style for lighter winds. If you are cognizant of wind conditions, old style works fine. Try it out for a bit, then decide. We sailed old style for years in windy Corpus Christi with no issues.

Fair winds,
Kent

Thanks Kent, is there a way to keep it from popping loose? I too live on the gulf(Mississippi) and though my daughter probably won't sail in high wind, I probably will(once I learn how)

 

[signal charlie]

Hey, you didnt just buy our 1965 Tilly did you?

If the hardware is installed correctly, carriage bolt tensioned properly and keel plate is not loose, you will be fine. I have seen surgical tubing put over the carriage bolt, supposedly factory mod, that might limit wiggling in the transom slot. If you plan on consistently going out in 15 knots plus, or the Gulf with waves, go right to new style rudder.

Y'all need 2 new boats + 65 for father/daughter/mom races. Your daughter, with her mom's sailing cell memory, will probably smoke you even while she is on the old, heavy slow boat There are 2 new 2012s for sale here in Pensacola at Key Sailing, 10 percent off.

A lighter sailor could benefit from heavier hull in heavier winds, less heeling, more efficient sailodynamics. But for serious racing contention, you need a light, stiff hull, new sail, new rudder, plastic daggerboard,...cheaper than a pony or muscle car...

64 1/2 Mustang convertible or 2013 Shelby, why decide, get both!

Which Mississippi part y'all in?

KB in Navarre

 

[carpediem27]

Hey, you didnt just buy our 1965 Tilly did you?

No, had this one for a few years now, just waited for the oldest to show some interest before fixing it. Also wanted to wait so she was old enough to help me and learn how to fix it herself in the future.

If the hardware is installed correctly, carriage bolt tensioned properly and keel plate is not loose, you will be fine. I have seen surgical tubing put over the carriage bolt, supposedly factory mod, that might limit wiggling in the transom slot. If you plan on consistently going out in 15 knots plus, or the Gulf with waves, go right to new style rudder.

Hopefully I'll get it installed correctly. We are by gulfport so we have the barrier islands so we should be alright on the waves.

Y'all need 2 new boats + 65 for father/daughter/mom races. Your daughter, with her mom's sailing cell memory, will probably smoke you even while she is on the old, heavy slow boat

There is no doubt that she could win a race with sinking canoe and a trash bag for a sail, she has more silver cups and serving utensils than any household should have. She is getting pretty excited to sail again.

There are 2 new 2012s for sale here in Pensacola at Key Sailing, 10 percent off.

A lighter sailor could benefit from heavier hull in heavier winds, less heeling, more efficient sailodynamics. But for serious racing contention, you need a light, stiff hull, new sail, new rudder, plastic daggerboard,...cheaper than a pony or muscle car...

64 1/2 Mustang convertible or 2013 Shelby, why decide, get both!


Which Mississippi part y'all in?

KB in Navarre

I have an old hobie that will be the next project(but it may just be a part boat, we shall see)... We are in Long Beach

 

[Wavedancer]

You have described the crack perfectly... and thanks for the thoughts on how to fix, sounds like the direction I want to go to fix it. Should I reinforce the other side that doesn't have the crack while I'm at it? I don't think it will ever have that heavy of a sailor on it(while I own it at least), but is it a common problem?

It will be a casual use boat, but you never know if my daughter will want to start racing. My wife says that the older sunfishes are too heavy to race (I'm a non sailor, she raced all through growing up), so should I even be concerned with this particular boat's rudder style?

What's the downside of the old style rudder? Is she going to have problems with it?

The downside of the old style rudder is that it will pop up when reaching in heavy air. Unless you keep the boat really flat so that there is no need to correct the helm. One can tighten the nut, but that won't solve the problem completely. Kent (signal charlie) pointed this out earlier.

I must politely correct your spouse about older fishes being too heavy for racing. It all depends on whether the hull has picked up water.

 

[carpediem27]

Thanks for all the advice so far....

I poked around the hole last night and it feels like the wood block is entirely gone. Do I have to install the inspection port and replace the block? or can I just pump it full of epoxy and redrill once it is hardened? If I can do the epoxy, what kind might be best?

Here is a picture of the crack. (Longer than I remembered..)