Class Politics New standard sail

Among the things I have learned during the too long process of looking at a new Standard sail:

  • Two sails with identical cuts but not the same material are different. I can say that testing between two sailors who both finished the year in the top ten of the ISAF World Cup demonstrated there is sometimes a large difference. Not only in objective side by side speed testing, but also in the more subjective off the water discussions where both said they could see/feel the differences in the sails. (note they were not using "replica" sails, but testing of prototypes).
  • The average Laser sailor is not as sensitive to the differences in material that the pros are, we tend to make too many other mistakes for it to matter.
In addition:
  • An Olympic medalist told some sailors in a clinic he was running (which I attended) that if they were to use replica sails in the clinic he would not be able to help them with sail trim because he could see that the sails were different and he didn't want to waste his and their time trying to figure them out.

My point here is that it doesn't matter what sail we use but it is important that we all use the same sail.
 
As entertaining as this thread is, it would have been lovely to keep the "Laser builders are evil, Intensity are great" theories in the other seventy three threads that have gone down that path and saved this one for a discussion on the new standard sail design.

Surely Tracy has better things to do than come up with yet another way of reminding us that it isn't that simple? Although I do have to say that this is one of my favourites so far. We've had diplomatic reason, now we have physicist humour - I wonder what comes next? Ill-concealed frustration? How long until we reach utter despair?

In an undoubtedly doomed attempt to bring the thread back to its origins, it seems like some posters may have seen or even sailed with the new design. Does anybody have any further details or comments about the sail itself, or the cost or the release timing?

I would ask Tracy, but he seems to be well equipped with a mute button on these details. Which may be telling in itself if you like a good conspiracy theory.
 
Facebook style:
I liked Tracy's post

If mwe all promoted thegame as much as we bitch about it ( me included) we would cause thebuilders to sell so many new boats walmart would stock tehm and if Walmart stocked lasers they would sell tehm for under $1000.

No kidding...if Walmart could sell a couiple a week in every store the production process and delivery process qwould be so effecient the would be profit for everybody at $1000.

But. sailors STILL haven't decided which ONE singlehanded boat is the toy to be used for racing sailboats.

So..we stillhave to use hand built one at a time boats and sails.

Hopefully someday someone will decide to build and promote a singlehanded boat whose design goal is a baot that does everything lasers do while lasting forever and costing about $1000. it can be done. it is simply the fact that no one has decided to do it.
 
My point here is that it doesn't matter what sail we use but it is important that we all use the same sail.

I completely agree.

I don't know if it is related to the new sail but I'm sure the UK price of a new sail is lower than it used to be (by quite a bit). I don't keep track of the new sail prices (though might start now as I will be needing a new sail soon) but I'm sure the LP price used to be a lot higher. However, it is not expressed as a special offer or anything so maybe it is addressing the "knock-off" competition as they can not release a new sail and suddenly hick the price right-up again (or maybe my memory about prices is just faulty). (though they are doing a £60 off the rolled sail)

Ian
 
I saw the new standard sized radial cut sail design and I REALLY liked it. The material seemed much tougher than the current material. If it lasts significantly longer than the current design I would gladly switch to it and not bitch about the $ 600.00 price.

Of all the topics about gear on this forum the "sail topic" is, (and has been for some time) the hottest topic. A CHANGE NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

Yes, we ALL need to use the same sail and I believe using one supplier is fine so long as the collective group does not feel like they are getting screwed like we do now.

As for the builder. The laser builders in the hay day were popping out 25,000 boats a year. Now it is down to 2,000. Proper production management and product management will keep a company profitable. If the current management lacks the dynamics to adjust to market conditions then changes need to be made to put people in place who can.....Just don't hold the loyal subjects hostage to overpaying for inferior products to feed the machine, (if that is what i happening). Eventually, that support will fade and then what?

Until a change happens I will continue to use my Intensity sail for every outing I can get away with in order to keep the hours, (yes, HOURS) off of my 2 fairly new class sails, (which I rotate). Interesting thing about those class sails.....One has only 1 regatta on it and is already worn more than the other that has 6 regattas on it. What's that all about?! I don't want to hear, "well it must have been really windy when you used the newest one." That's not the reason.

Back to topic: We need a new sail, we need a new sail, we need a new sail, we need a new sail, we need a new sail, WE NEED A NEW SAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damnit.
 
Just to note...Ive used my Intensity sail all summer(every weekend in various conditions) and its still real crisp.
It has good shape, its competitive against my friends, and its sturdy.

Just my .02

Hey Mr Intensity! I need a kickback!
 
LaserPerformance makes more than just the Laser. When I was there I saw the Sunfish line going and also some 420s for college programs and they had one SB3 sitting there too.

I do know the actual number of Lasers they were selling and it looked like they were making about the same amount of Sunfish -- do the Sunfish guys have the same issue with their sail?
 
I heard yesterday that North is getting out of Laser sail production and the class sail price was increasing. Good and not so good news, I guess.
 
I took "same issue" to mean short life relative to cost...

Sunfish sails last much longer, but that does not stop Sunfish sailors from complaining that the sails cost too much. We have the exact same Intensity vs. LP/North discussions regarding price. Because the North sails last quite a while you don't see many intensity sails, so I don't know if there is a speed difference. TUM
 
I just pulled this from a post on Sailing Anarchy:

Well said!!!

Our club (SMSA in Solomons, MD) is hosting a Dinghy Regatta at the end of September, we will have a Laser OD class but it is not a sanctioned event so our PRO wrote the following into the NOR. Very clear that the boat must be OD compliant with the exception of the sail.

2. RULES
2.1. The Regatta will be governed by the Racing Rules of Sailing, 2009-2012.
2.2. For any class being scored as a one-design class, individual class rules will be in effect except as
noted.
2.2.1 Laser class is allowed to use non class sails (APS/Intensity)


Oh and the Intensity/APS sail is only $180 AND you get battens, two sail bags (roll/brick), numbers, tell tails AND a clew strap!!! AND Intensity will ship it to you for FREE and NO sales tax if you live outside of RI. And no I don't work or have an affiliation with Intensity just think it is a good deal. APS gives you all the same for the same price but I would have to drive to Annapolis to pickup and pay our stupid 6% sales tax. (Don't get me started on that as I would have to go over to PA.)

It would seem momentum gaining for the 1/3rd price non-class sails to be used at events. The builder needs to step up and fix this debacle with the overpriced/under performing class sail or risk losing significant future sail revenue.....

Yes, I will beat this horse until it's at least 12 feet under....

Gov says to step up and fix it. Other than relentlessly bitching on the internet I don't know how.

There's at least one good option out there. Would someone please pull the trigger?
 
I2. RULES
2.1. The Regatta will be governed by the Racing Rules of Sailing, 2009-2012.
2.2. For any class being scored as a one-design class, individual class rules will be in effect except as
noted.
2.2.1 Laser class is allowed to use non class sails (APS/Intensity)

Soon to become boilerplate for Laser regatta NORs nationwide.
 
I just pulled this from a post on Sailing Anarchy:

Our club (SMSA in Solomons, MD) is hosting a Dinghy Regatta at the end of September, we will have a Laser OD class but it is not a sanctioned event so our PRO wrote the following into the NOR. Very clear that the boat must be OD compliant with the exception of the sail.

2. RULES
2.1. The Regatta will be governed by the Racing Rules of Sailing, 2009-2012.
2.2. For any class being scored as a one-design class, individual class rules will be in effect except as
noted.
2.2.1 Laser class is allowed to use non class sails (APS/Intensity)

Not a rules expert, but 2.2.1 should also say something like "This changes 78.1 and 87"

I think!
 
The problem is that you cannot vary the class rules using an NOR or SIs. This is in the RRS.

The way around it is to 'create' a local class that has exactly the sames rules as another class with the exception of the rules you want to vary. There is no rules against that...
 
The problem is that you cannot vary the class rules using an NOR or SIs. This is in the RRS.

The way around it is to 'create' a local class that has exactly the sames rules as another class with the exception of the rules you want to vary. There is no rules against that...

That is technically correct, by the RRS you can't modify the Class Rules in the NOR and/or SI's unless the Class Rules allow the change to be made -or- the class association (in this case ILCA) provides written permission.

Technicians can look at section 7 of the RRS for the details.

The bottom line, I think there are only two ways to use replica equipment in a regatta:

a) you have a singlehanded class where the boat type is not specified,
b) you have a gentleman's agreement amongst all the racers that "its ok" and nobody will protest.

I'm guessing that most fleets that allow replica equipment are going with option b since option a doesn't guarantee you are racing against boats that look like Lasers.
 
Sunfish sails last much longer, but that does not stop Sunfish sailors from complaining that the sails cost too much. We have the exact same Intensity vs. LP/North discussions regarding price. Because the North sails last quite a while you don't see many intensity sails, so I don't know if there is a speed difference. TUM

The Sunfish class helped me in development and testing and found the the sail we are producing does sail level with the class sail. The Sunfish class supports the use of our sail for local sailing but not for regional or national events. They are looking to increase participation and get more Sunfish out.

I am glad that we have been able to help them with that goal in mind.
 
a) you have a singlehanded class where the boat type is not specified,
b) you have a gentleman's agreement amongst all the racers that "its ok" and nobody will protest.

The other way to do it is to write in to the SI/NOR that you will not accept measurement based protests. This of course opens up huge scope for other things when in reality all you wanted to do was allow a training/replica sail to be used for what seems to be a friendly sailing event aimed at getting as many people out on the water as possible.
 
So does this allow me to enter the regatta with a fully battened, oversized mylar sail and call it a "replica laser sail" since laser class specs don't need to be met? Who decides which class specifications aren't met and which "replica" laser equipment is legal and illegal?
 
So does this allow me to enter the regatta with a fully battened, oversized mylar sail and call it a "replica laser sail" since laser class specs don't need to be met? Who decides which class specifications aren't met and which "replica" laser equipment is legal and illegal?

In theory yes.... which is why it is a bad idea.
 
In theory yes.... which is why it is a bad idea.

Can it be considered a "replica" if it in no way, shape or form replicates a current class sail design? For instance. How many replica Cobras, (the car) do you see on the road, but can't visually tell the difference?
 
It would be interesting to see what people would come up with if there were an 'Open' Laser class where the hull shape and spar length could not be changed but any thing else could. I remember seeing a video once where a guy had some sort of hoop shaped foil instead of a centre board. Full batten, square top sail on a Laser...sounds cool. How about a trapeze?
Some people want to race level and that's great. The one design class model is important to be sure. So long, of course, that the class makes sure the components are of superior quality and are affordable. Heck, even good value for the money would be nice.
But some people like to tinker and go super fast. This can be cool too.
 
Can it be considered a "replica" if it in no way, shape or form replicates a current class sail design? For instance. How many replica Cobras, (the car) do you see on the road, but can't visually tell the difference?

The current problem is that the Intensity et al sails are not made from material that meets the current class specs, the form as a result is altered. The batten pockets on the radial are different from the Laser Radial sail. As for shape, I haven't overlayed one yet, but I doubt the sail dimensions are the same because of the increased stiffness of the cloth would result in a luff that does not match the bend characteristics of the mast sections, as a result intensity are likely to have altered the sail shape to match the mast shape and cloth characteristics. The supplied battens are different to the class legal battens etc.

So it's really a case of how different do you permit the sails to be for them to still be considered replicas to compete in this particular regatta? Who decides what will be accepted, particularly as you've stated in the NOR that non class sails are permitted.

I also suspect that having stated that non class legal sais are permitted, you open yourself up to restrictive trade practices and hence legal action by refusing entries from say competitors with Rooster replica sails.
 
We just finished the Finn Gold Cup at my marina (Plug: site for the 2011 4.7 & Masters Worlds!) and they had two and a half days of measurement for their boats!

The measurement was pretty elaborate and complicated too, involving not just the lenghth and breadth on mast and hull but the weight and balance points too. The sails also required measurement. It took lots of volunteers to set up and get everyone through the process (and there were only 90-some entries for their world championships). Observing this sure made me glad that we don't have to do that with the Lasers. Oh and don't even mention the costs of their gear - the mast alone is half a new Laser's cost.

So my thinking is: be careful what we ask for. A "better" sail is a great idea but going down the slippery slope of opening up the sails to different manufacturers would make for some significant changes in how we do things.
 
Here is a perfect example of scare tactics. Nobody rational is suggesting the market should be opened to all sailmakers to build one at a time specialty sails. The suggestion has been to have the class APPROVE A SUPPLIER OTHER THAN THE BUILDERS.
The one supplier's product would be easy to identify and just as easy to measure as the current sails.

Look. Find usual sail. Smile. Go sailing.

Fact is, the approval of a properly priced high quality durable alternative would remove the incentive to bring cheater sails.

We just finished the Finn Gold Cup at my marina (Plug: site for the 2011 4.7 & Masters Worlds!) and they had two and a half days of measurement for their boats!

The measurement was pretty elaborate and complicated too, involving not just the lenghth and breadth on mast and hull but the weight and balance points too. The sails also required measurement. It took lots of volunteers to set up and get everyone through the process (and there were only 90-some entries for their world championships). Observing this sure made me glad that we don't have to do that with the Lasers. Oh and don't even mention the costs of their gear - the mast alone is half a new Laser's cost.

So my thinking is: be careful what we ask for. A "better" sail is a great idea but going down the slippery slope of opening up the sails to different manufacturers would make for some significant changes in how we do things.
 
Here is a perfect example of scare tactics. Nobody rational is suggesting the market should be opened to all sailmakers to build one at a time specialty sails. The suggestion has been to have the class APPROVE A SUPPLIER OTHER THAN THE BUILDERS.
The one supplier's product would be easy to identify and just as easy to measure as the current sails.

Look. Find usual sail. Smile. Go sailing.
So why should those of us outside North America be forced to import (roughly $US40 or if the supplier was in the UK about $US80) a sail from the North America, where we could get our own Chinese replica sail sail cheaper from a local "sail maker". I'm sure New Zealand would want their own, as would the UK, Germany etc. So you'll find that their are suddenly need to be 40 or 50 "approved" suppliers.

Note: Those are real prices for what it cost currently to import a laser sail from overseas to Australia. It is still cheaper than official sails supplied by our own dealers network and builder. Our current North & Hyde sails sails cost repectively $US780 and $US870 and don't come with battens, tell tails or sail numbers as offered with many internet deals from North America.

Fact is, the approval of a properly priced high quality durable alternative would remove the incentive to bring cheater sails.

Why? If the sailing instructions don't forbid non approved sail, then people will look around for what advantage they can gain and if that means speciality sails, so be it. I actually find it amusing that you can them cheater sails, because I would include any unofficial laser sail in that description, it doesn't matter if Intensity or any other sail maker made them, they aren't class legal.
 
If somebody starts doing better with an "approved" knock-off then some others will start putting that down to the sail rather than ability. Then rumours will start about better performance and other will go out and buy one because then believe it improved their performance, etc., etc. and the Laser is no longer what I think of as a strict one design.

Then the rumours might start about the new sail being faster under particular conditions so people would start needing both sails so they can chose depending on the conditions on the day/race. Then those with less money start considering themselves at a disadvantage.

Of course there are differences between different boats (age of sail, condition of hull, etc.) but these are difficult to eliminate given the technology employed. However, to introduce a different sail would be giving official approval to the end of the strict one design - one of the attributes that makes the class so popular.

Of course when a new sail is eventually introduced (if ever) then the same will apply but that cannot be avoided and sails (new and old designs) do wear out so over time most will have switched to the new design. During the change over period same rumours will apply but this will be for a limited time.

Hopefully the class will act at some point act on the sail and its pricing (though I think the UK retail price has dropped since a year ago) and then maybe there will be some clubs who will stop their "any sail" rule. Some clubs allow specific knock-offs but as that crack has been allowed people then sail with all sorts of different knock-off brands. I believe it is damaging the class and the cause is the failure of the class/builder to address what has been a very clear problem for a long time. They only have themselves to blame but it is hitting us all. I can only hope they pull their fingers out soon and I only hope the class can recover from the damage they have done.

Ian
 
Then the rumours might start about the new sail being faster under particular conditions so people would start needing both sails so they can chose depending on the conditions on the day/race. Then those with less money start considering themselves at a disadvantage.

Of course there are differences between different boats (age of sail, condition of hull, etc.) but these are difficult to eliminate given the technology employed. However, to introduce a different sail would be giving official approval to the end of the strict one design - one of the attributes that makes the class so popular.

Of course when a new sail is eventually introduced (if ever) then the same will apply but that cannot be avoided and sails (new and old designs) do wear out so over time most will have switched to the new design. During the change over period same rumours will apply but this will be for a limited time.

Ian

Remember what happened with the new radial sail years ago. Some hoarded the old design and many moved onto the new one. If the new sail was the only thing you could get people switched over to the new one so they didn't have to waste their time. It was a completely different design and a new way to tune. I have a feeling we will have tune the new full rig sail differently anyway so people won't fight the switch because they will want to use the new sail if they want to race so they don't need to remember two types of tuning. Those who club race or cruise won't care because they should be as fast as everyone else.

I don't see the issue. Once that old radial sail hit the market and that was all you can get I didn't see an outcry on people not thinking it wasn't still a one design fleet. You don't see many of those old Mark V sails anyway, it moved through the fleet and that's what we have. It will be the same thing with the new full rig sail. People will get a new one when they want to and move on.
 
It seems to me that until the current approved manufacturer is forced by the class to make a durable, high quality, and reasonably priced sail, this discussion will never end. I don't understand how one of the biggest one design classes can sit back and take it for so long. Everyone knows a good sail can be made for less, so what's the problem? People, take action!
 
Interesting to note: The Tasar class has moved to mylar sails and there doesn't seem to be near the outcry about it.
Also, the Hobie 16 class years ago allowed a combination mylar/darcon sail and no one cried fould there either. There was also little complaint about the cost of either type of Hobie sail construction, and the quality was very good. We raced new against very old and had a great time of it.
Keep in mind the no mater the condition or cut of the sails, unless you are competing at the highest international level, the biggest impact on performance is the individual's skill level. That's what One design is all about.
Sail hard, sail smart, get results!
 
Other classes which are one design have also managed therse changes very well.

The Blaze class went from a fully battened 10.2 sqm sail to a 9.75 sqm sail in the year 2000.

Sure there was short term pain while people made the changes (they needed a new sail and a few easy mods to the boat using the exisiting spars).

This is what the class needs to take, short term pain for long term gain. Although as the Laser is an international class and has Olympic status there are hoops that have to jumped through.....
 
So why should those of us outside North America be forced to import (roughly $US40 or if the supplier was in the UK about $US80) a sail from the North America ...

You give the impression of somebody willfully misinterpreting and spinning other people's statements in order to discredit their opinion. What Gouvernail said and what many here are saying is perfectly reasonable and not at all what you make of it. It's not about allowing one sailmaker for each country, not about changing the class rules to define specs only and allowing any sailmaker or anything the like. It's only about one slightly different dacron design - nobody here suggested kevlar or mylar or the like - with a decent quality for a reasonable price by one or a few class approved sail makers. That's all. No need to paint it black and predict the end of the Laser class as we know it. The new control lines might prove to be a greater perfomance boost than the new sail design.

I can't see why we would need more time and effort for measuring boats than we need presently either. LP would simply have to buy a different sail, maybe from different sail makers than the present suppliers. Or, if LP cannot meet the needs of the class, we could buy directly from one sail maker who would guarantee sustained and equal quality.

Most of us worldwide would probably have to pay something for shipping - just like we are paying for shipping and other distribution costs right now when buying a class legal sail from LP and it's affiliates. Those costs are included in the price of very many consumer goods presently. You pay for shipping costs when you buy pretty much any T-shirt, sock or tie worldwide. Most consumer products are made in Asia, India or Central America.

If Intensity can make a profit by making a similar and more durable sail that sells for 200 Dollars roughly, plus extras, there's a lot one can afford to pay for shipping until you reach even half of the price of the current official sail.
 
If Intensity can make a profit by making a similar and more durable sail that sells for 200 Dollars roughly, plus extras, there's a lot one can afford to pay for shipping until you reach even half of the price of the current official sail.

Here's the thing though, if you make intensity an official sail maker, they then have to join the supply chain. LP buys the sail, sells to dealers and then to us. The cost of the sail goes up to where it is now because of the supply chain.

We don't know how much a sail costs LP when they buy from the sailmaker so for all we know, that sail sold to LP could cost as much as Intensity sells their sail for to us.
 

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