Traveller Cam Cleat / Hikingstrap Shockcord

LooserLu

LooserLu
Hi

The Summer sailing season for me now is over here and the frostbite series still didn't began now. It's a good time for me, to reviewing the past season for a few things to optimize at my Club Laser.

Here in the moment I am thinking of a change of the Camcleat for the traveller. At the original cleat the hikingstrap shockcord do not hold well down to the deck and hinder the traveller line if the traveler line runs into the cleat (view photo in attachment, the red arrows there).

I am not shure, if the lower both Camcleats (upper: original "Racing CL211 ...Mk1", meddle: older "Racing Junior MkII", lower: "Racing CL211 Mk2") at the 2nd photo are permitted by the actual ILCA rules to use. I prefer to change to the Camcleat in the meddle of the photo. It allows the traveler line to run more independent of the bungee for the hikingstrap at the Camcleat.

Do the rules permit me the change to the "Racing Junior MkII" Camcleat? Your opinion please, thanks.

Ciao
LooserLu
 

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I'm interested in this, too. I have the same shock cord problem as Lu. I don't know if I'm enterprising enough to actually swap cleats though!
 
A lot of people use thicker shock cord make it go like that on purpose, if I'm not mistaken.

When you pull the traveler tight, and then have the shock cord pull up like your first picture, it makes it that extra bit tighter and helps the cleat hold it in place. (The cleats slip to a certain degree.)

But yeah, some people (myself included) do that on purpose.

I see nothing wrong in your picture.
 
Rule 26(b) does not permit you to move away from the standard cleat. Further, if you think about why you're changing the cleat i.e to give you a bigger lip to prevent the shockcord riding up over the front of the cleat is changing the essential characteristics and shape of the cleat, hence prohibited by 26(a).
 
Thanks Alan, and I'm afraid, also rule 3-"a"-"vi" does not allow. "Sh.t".... Okay. I don't want to go into a useless discussion here, what is: "...identical size and shape...". I want to get a decent solution (and Merrily sure want to get such a solution, too) to sail with, in future.

How do the "pros" do handle this? Or, do they "just don't care" and always pull the traveller to maximum tension before they go out and never change this duning their sailings?

Is it perhaps permitted to tape the shockcord to the CamCleat in a way that the shockcord do not "cleat" the traveller line before the traveller line runs into the Camleat hole?
 
Guess I'm not understanding the need to worry about adjusting the trav. line. At least for racing there are just two settings, tight and super tight (the difference in line movement is less then 3 cm) and the shockcord doesn't impede the movement enough to cause problems adjusting it. It's pretty rare to adjust it while racing, at least in the areas I sail in.
 
...there are just two settings, tight and super tight ... and the shockcord doesn't impede the movement enough to cause problems adjusting it....
Thanks. But exact, when loose a bit from super tight to tight the shockcord "pinches" the traveller line at my boat. This is, if one sails in gusty situations, where not always it is blowing constant, but sometimes strong and then, in longer periods, the wind is lower (typical lake sailing conditions, where I sail at.). Then I loose the t-line a few (those 3 cm), to make it easier for the t-block to move over the tiller if I roll-tack etc.
 
Thanks. But exact, when loose a bit from super tight to tight the shockcord "pinches" the traveller line at my boat. This is, if one sails in gusty situations, where not always it is blowing constant, but sometimes strong and then, in longer periods, the wind is lower (typical lake sailing conditions, where I sail at.). Then I loose the t-line a few (those 3 cm), to make it easier for the t-block to move over the tiller if I roll-tack etc.

Are you saying you have so much tension on the hiking strap shock cord that when the trav is eased, it's able to take up the tension on the traveller (in effect causing the trav to be tight again so your blocks have trouble clearing the tiller ) ?

If that's the case, I would back off the tension in the shock cord

What tiller shape are you using ?
 
Hi Lu,

Is it possible that the ridge of silicone (or 5200 or whatever the green arrow below is pointing to) is contributing to the issue of the bungy slipping off the cleat?

As the bungy is only needed to hold the hiking strap away from the bottom of the cockpit I use quite a thin bungy that is not much higher, if at all, than the rear of the cleat (maybe 3mm). I also make sure that no silicone escapes out when replacing the cleat. As a result, I don't recall the bungy ever slipping off my cleat.

Just a thought.
 

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a smaller diameter shock cord should help. after all it's only being used to suspend the hiking strap. also, a small bit of plastic tape wrapped on the bungie right where the bungie is wrapped around the cleat. this will reduce the friction from the slick traveller line.
you just have to reduce the amount of bungie under the traveller. the current diameter of bungie looks a little overkill.
 
And you may find yourself being asked to remove it. This refers Bungo Pete's cleat (Rule 26(a) & (b)) and possibly Stick's tape, but a Jean Luc would need to see a picture of it to determine whether it's legal or not.
 
I would say that maybe the shockcord in the pic is either:

1) too tight
2) too thick

Haviing said that I have thick shock cord on my boat and do not suffer from the same problem so I reckon it is down to tension.

You will never want that little tension on the traveller (I sail on a gusty, shifty gravel pit) or that much tension on the toestrap. remember all that shockcord is doing is lifting the strap up to make it easier to get your feet under it.

Cheers,

Paul
 
Hi all,
thanks a lot, for the very much help. Am I permitted to say, I am not the only one that did had to think about this issue? ;)

----
Shatty, I have read your reply but I first want to wait what others think. I'll keep your hint in mind, thanks.
---------
@49208
"Are you saying you have so much tension on the hiking strap shock cord that when the trav is eased, it's able to take up the tension on the traveller (in effect causing the trav to be tight again so your blocks have trouble clearing the tiller ) ?

If that's the case, I would back off the tension in the shock cord

What tiller shape are you using ?"

Yes, the tension of the shock cord is high, perhaps to high, I guess.

I use differnet carbon tillers, Greg. I am still testing, which one is the best personally for me ;) I sometimes use: ACME's Black diamond (I do not own it, but sometimes the club permits me to use theirs, no chance to by an own one here at GER in the moment, there is no dealer here for it), Lasers "oval" C-Tiller (identical with the one of Windesign/Optiparts, but my one is original of PSE), Lasers first C-Tiller (is not oval but has a circular diameter, it is very light and good in very low winds), the "Kiwi"tiller with the roller, made in NZL (as to be seen on the photo).

Most problems I had with the oval C-tiller of PSE, altough it is the one I most like to use (it is my "VW beelte" under the C-tillers). The metal plate did fall off, 3 times in 3 times of sailing, in reason the blocks did hit to strong to the tiller there. To this I plan another TLF-thread in winter.
----------------------------------

@Zoohyte

"Is it possible that the ridge of silicone (or 5200 or whatever the green arrow below is pointing to) is contributing to the issue of the bungy slipping off the cleat?"

Hmm, perhaps, but I did use other hulls this last summer, too. But there I have the same issue with the shockcord.
---------------------------
@stick
"a smaller diameter shock cord should help. after all it's only being used to suspend the hiking strap. also, a small bit of plastic tape wrapped on the bungie right where the bungie is wrapped around the cleat. this will reduce the friction from the slick traveller line. ..."

Oh, yes, I guess I better try a smaller diameter in future. To use a small bit of tape is what I am thinking about, too, but is this class legal?

Additional, my thoughts go to lead the (in future a smaller diameter but longer shockcord) around the triangle-edge (the edge nearest to the camcleat) of the traveller line (there where the small loop end / "halfknot" is).

But is this permitted?

(Additional I lead the shock cord, in the way Steve Cockerill do: through the eyes of the hikingstap-fixing at the rear wall of the cockpit)

---------------

@ Bungo Pete

"... http://www.clamcleat.com/cleats/clea....asp?theid2=98 ..."

Oh, this is a nice Camcleat! But, I "feel": it is in the same way "not class legal", like my "Racing Junior MkII". Both do "change the essential shape" of the original Camcleat and rule "3 (a) vi" does not permit that (also Alans rule "26 (a)")

Would it be successful to send an official offer for a permittion to change classlegal to such a Camcleat to Clive and the technical board of the ILCA? I guess the boat dosent gets more fast by this Camcleat and it is the same size of the original Camcleat (only the shape is a bit different). Perhaps Tracy keeps this in mind for the next votes for changes at the class rules.
-------------------

How ever, I gues I have to take a lower diameter of shock cord and a bit lower tension. and do test if it is better (for me) to lead the shockord through the eyes for the hiking strap. I let you know here, if this works for me or not.

Again, thanks for all hints above

Ciao
LooserLu
 
...
You will never want that little tension on the traveller (I sail on a gusty, shifty gravel pit) or that much tension on the toestrap. ...

Paul, thanks, if it is blowing strong in gusts constant and the periods of low winds are few, I agree.

But, I guess we often sail in the same winds (they are only a few hours earlier at you, then at my pont more to the east on this line of latitude :)) ), don't you have this situations, too?

If there are peroids of big tricky gusts where you have to hike hard and quick have to go in and out and out and in of the cockpit etc. Then one needs a super tight traveller. But, then there are larger periods where the wind lulls down. Then it is a need to ease the traveller, to allow the boom to stay more to the side, where you want to have it on an upwind course. If the traveller line is not to tight, in such situations, it is also easier for the blocks to get over the tiller druring a roll tack. If I pull the traveller line again, if the windforce rises up suddenly for the next big puffs that I see to come over the lake, the eased the traveller line doesn't run well through the Camcleat in reason the shock cord pinches it. I lose some concentration (for to separate the shock cord from the travellerline) that I better need for other things to do on the boat in such moments ( f.e. trim optimal the Cunningham control / outhaul control) to be prepared for the next fight with the tricky gusts... You understand? If I then have not pulled the traveller line early enough to "super tight", I later on nearly have no change to do it, while hikning out hard (mainsheet nearly block to block) to hold the boat flat and "steering out well the windshifts". It is "in contra production" then, to sail with a not super-tight traveller line but "block to block"(Sorry, it is not easy for me to translate into English such situations, I hope you understand in general, what I try to express.). That's why it is a need, to have separated decent, the shock cord and the traveller line.

I have another idea additionally: to knot a small loop (a piece of low diameter dynema rope) to the bridge of the Camcleat and lead the shockord through this ... do the rules permit that ?

Ciao
LooserLu
 
I have another idea additionally: to knot a small loop (a piece of low diameter dynema rope) to the bridge of the Camcleat and lead the shockord through this ... do the rules permit that ?

Unfortunately the rules do not permit it. The rule 17(d) permits a single piece of shockcord and nothing else.

I suspect that you're easing your traveller too far if you are experiencing this problem. While the shockcord will always ride under the traveller rope, it shouldn't be impacting on the traveller rope.

For what it's worth I use 4 or 5 mm D12 rope for the traveller and 5mm shockcord. The traveller has a large bowline tied at one end and the rest of the rope is then feed through the fairleads and a half hitch used to tied around the original bowline and then the tail is feed through the cleat. The loop formed by the the half hitch and the fairleads is as tight as I can make it. For adjusting the traveller, you are probably just easing it at most by 10mm, but it goes from being tight to super tight. The shockcord for the hiking strap is also very tight.
 
Unfortunately the rules do not permit it. The rule 17(d) permits a single piece of shockcord and nothing else.

I suspect that you're easing your traveller too far if you are experiencing this problem. While the shockcord will always ride under the traveller rope, it shouldn't be impacting on the traveller rope.
Okay, I understand.

For what it's worth I use 4 or 5 mm D12 rope for the traveller and 5mm shockcord. The traveller has a large bowline tied at one end and the rest of the rope is then feed through the fairleads and a half hitch used to tied around the original bowline and then the tail is feed through the cleat. The loop formed by the the half hitch and the fairleads is as tight as I can make it. For adjusting the traveller, you are probably just easing it at most by 10mm, but it goes from being tight to super tight. The shockcord for the hiking strap is also very tight.
See photo below (its the full photo of my first words in this thread). I use "FSE Wega 3000" rope, diameter 5 mm.

Thanks
LooserLu
 

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Paul, thanks, if it is blowing strong in gusts constant and the periods of low winds are few, I agree.

But, I guess we often sail in the same winds (they are only a few hours earlier at you, then at my pont more to the east on this line of latitude :)) ), don't you have this situations, too?

I tend to tension the traveller very tight and then go out for a sail before the race. The only time I find I need to ease it is if the blocks will not go over the tiller without getting stuck.

My traveller is nothing special rope wise just some 5mm pre-stretch I had floating around. It seems to work well with the new Harken traveller blocks because they fall across nicely but do not seem to creep like I have seen on the more 'slippery' ropes.

The lake i sail on is so small that doing things like messing around with traveller tension will lose you a lot more than it will gain you. Best to concentrate on getting the shifts right and driving the boat ashard as you can.
 
And you may find yourself being asked to remove it. This refers Bungo Pete's cleat (Rule 26(a) & (b)) and possibly Stick's tape, but a Jean Luc would need to see a picture of it to determine whether it's legal or not.

To which I will respond with two words, and they won't be "Bottle Port."

I find it incredulous that something so inocuous yet which solves a simple problem and again, does not in any way enhance, alter or change the performance of the boat would be thought of as illegal. It would seem to me that if a rank amateur like myself could find out that Clam Cleat makes a version if the so-called "class legal" cleat with a hole in it, then Laser Performance or the esteemed members of the ILCA Rules Committee could do the same and take more of a proactive approach to this sort of thing. Otherwise, they will end up like NASCAR.

Nevertheless, I will submit a pic of the offending infernal device to the powers-that-be for their assessment. Regardless of the outcome, I will be putting one on my boat.
 
Hi again,
today was the last chance for me in this year to test a new setup for the shock cord of the hiking strap. Our Boats go in hibernation next Saturday.

In attachment I did add some photos of today.

I would like to take the set up with the tape in front of the Camcleat (Photo 2).

Is it permitted to fix the shock cord at the traveller line ( like I already did mentio at my answer to "stick" above)? -> Photo 3

To the photos: This is one of our old club Lasers you see and her hiking strap is to long, I know. Next season I use a different hull with a shorter hiking strap. So, at the photos you see a not optimal hiking strap adjustment. I did add the adjustment only for demonstration.

BTW: Is it permitted (class legal) to fix the inhaul shock cord, like it is to be seen at the photo 4?


Thanks


LooserLu
 

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Photo 1: Illegal, you can do either the eyelets or the cleat, but not both.
Photo 2: Possibly illegal
Photo 3: Illegal
Photo 4: Legal, it's a recent new interpretation

Mattcm as mentioned above, those cleats are illegal. You can only use the identical cleat to what comes supplied with the boat or is currently supplied with the boat (i.e. the original cleats were plastic and they can be replaced by the metal cleats).
 
Mattcm as mentioned above, those cleats are illegal. You can only use the identical cleat to what comes supplied with the boat or is currently supplied with the boat (i.e. the original cleats were plastic and they can be replaced by the metal cleats).


Such Drivel. I obviously can't say for sure, but what if this Vanguard cleat came w/ a vanguard era boat? How could it be illegal?

If you go to Mattcm's site you will notice that he drilled holes in his boom endcap to make sure water drains out after a knock down. Now according to the twisted logic applied to things like this cleat and the bottle port, the evil perpetrator has changed the function of the end cap from an endcap to a drain. OH NO!!!!!!! We can't have that sort of innovation going on! Call out the guards! Man the Parapets!! Smite the scoundrel!!!:eek:
 
Hi again,


In attachment I did add some photos of today.

I would like to take the set up with the tape in front of the Camcleat (Photo 2).

Is it permitted to fix the shock cord at the traveller line ( like I already did mentio at my answer to "stick" above)? -> Photo 3

To the photos: This is one of our old club Lasers you see and her hiking strap is to long, I know. Next season I use a different hull with a shorter hiking strap.

LooserLu

You could achieve the same result as photo2 by just terminating the shock cord at the fairleads. Running the shock cord up to the traveller cleat serves little purpose.

Lu, your original photo is how your traveller should be set up. Ideally you could change the rope from a braided spectra one to a slippery core type rope.

Nothing wrong with using thick shock cord but generally 3-5 mm is adequate.

If I understand your problem it is that the shock cord causes the rope to ride up and get in the way. Lessen the tension on your shock cord and tighten your traveller rope.

You dont need the shock cord to do anything more than hold the strap up so you can get your feet under easily.

In regard to drilling out end caps on booms or changing cleats to ones that are slightly different models, why bother? Yes, your boom now drains better but it also fills up far quicker(maybe why changes like this are illegal). The same clam cleat design has been on the boat for 25+ years now and does the job.

2 things to keep in mind when rigging a Laser:

1. KISS. Keep it simple stupid. Self explanatory really, most people make their boats unnecessarily complicated.

2. Unless you have a very good, well thought out and improved method of rigging your boat, set your boat up like the leading sailors do. If you have a lighter or simpler way of setting up the vang for e.g it will soon be adopted by others.
 
Photo 1: Illegal, you can do either the eyelets or the cleat, but not both.
Photo 2: Possibly illegal
Photo 3: Illegal
Photo 4: Legal, it's a recent new interpretation
Hi
Okay, I understand, thanks Alan. Perhaps all the variations I did mention help others also, to not get a surprise at the next official measurement at a big event. For me it is new, that the way it is shown at photo 1 is not class legal. I got this idea from a photo of TLF (~2004) and it was said under the photo it is the way Steve Cockerill did lead the shock cord. I can imagine he was doing it illegal.

Me would help to be permitted to tape the bungee, like shown on phtoto 2. I can't imagine, taping a bungee is not class legal.

Ciao

LooserLu

@ Sean (You did post your reply meanwhile I was writing this reply. ;) )
Thanks for your advises. In generally I admit to your thesis "kiss", but since 2001 things have changed a bit (f.e: Harken power vang, Harken power equipment for the vang and Cunningham/Outhaul and, many more). I do not want to discuss this here in each details. I only want to keep a simple solution to the pinching of the shock cord to the traveller line.
The other (now obviously illegal) ways I did add, is: to show others, too, how better not to do it, to not make the same faults like me. Perhaps my photos are something for the ILCA Homepage at the "cheating" photo album ;)

In future I take the smaller diameter and less tension for the shockcord, and lead the bungee the common (legal) way. Perhaps I add a small piece of tape like it is shown at photo 2 (If the measurers in future say "it is not permitted", it is easy to put the tape away).
As shown on the last photos, I now use a "core type rope". I can't say what type it is, I got it from a pro.

Additionally, I did already mention above, that I use a diferent hiking strap than shown on the last photos. I usually use the Zhik hikingstrap (I am not permitted in the moment to install it to a club Laser here), that is less in length (and weight) like the one that is to be seen on the last photos.
 
Photo 1: Illegal, you can do either the eyelets or the cleat, but not both.
Photo 2: Possibly illegal
Photo 3: Illegal
Photo 4: Legal, it's a recent new interpretation

Mattcm as mentioned above, those cleats are illegal. You can only use the identical cleat to what comes supplied with the boat or is currently supplied with the boat (i.e. the original cleats were plastic and they can be replaced by the metal cleats).

Hi Alan,

You are inconsistent here. You say photo 1 is illegal becase the cleat and fairleads are both being used then you say photo 2 is possibly legal but if you look you can see that the way the shockcord has been led is exactly the same as photo 1 just with some tape round it on the cockpit side of the cleat....

Useful to know about photo 4 though, I may be having a fiddle with my inhaul shock cord as it does foul a little bit...

Can you clarify please?

Cheers,

Paul
 
Hi Alan,

You are inconsistent here. You say photo 1 is illegal becase the cleat and fairleads are both being used then you say photo 2 is possibly legal but if you look you can see that the way the shockcord has been led is exactly the same as photo 1 just with some tape round it on the cockpit side of the cleat....

Useful to know about photo 4 though, I may be having a fiddle with my inhaul shock cord as it does foul a little bit...

Can you clarify please?

Cheers,

Paul

Thanks for pulling me up. :)

Photo 2 is illegal as it is set up because the shock cord runs through the eyelets and also utilisers the cleat. I had only noticed the tape, which I believe is possibly illegal.
 
Thanks for pulling me up. :)

Photo 2 is illegal as it is set up because the shock cord runs through the eyelets and also utilisers the cleat. I had only noticed the tape, which I believe is possibly illegal.

Thanks Alan :)

In my opinion taping the shockcord as in photo 2 (but having it go straight to the strap legally) is more likely to make it 'pop' up on the cleat because of the increased tension.

Just my opinion mind you.....
 
Hi
Okay, I understand, thanks Alan. Perhaps all the variations I did mention help others also, to not get a surprise at the next official measurement at a big event. For me it is new, that the way it is shown at photo 1 is not class legal. I got this idea from a photo of TLF (~2004) and it was said under the photo it is the way Steve Cockerill did lead the shock cord. I can imagine he was doing it illegal.

Me would help to be permitted to tape the bungee, like shown on phtoto 2. I can't imagine, taping a bungee is not class legal.

From memory at the Terrigal Master Worlds in 2008, we did pull Steve up for something, but I can't remember what, I think we also got Tracy, but you'd need to ask him as my team measured 400 boats in 3 days.

There is definite benefits of avoiding surprises, the ILCA website has a new measurer's area where Jean-Luc is trying to be pro-active with the whole measurement thing. When things come to intrepretations, you'll find some measurers will mention it and others won't, this is also probably the case even when there is no shades of grey. When measuring large numbers of boats, things will get missed on some boats.

As for the tape, unless the specific rule says you can use tape, such as 14(d) for the centreboard, then it's covered by rule 24, whch specifies you can use it to secure shackle pins and clips, bind sheets, lines and rigging, the shockcord for the hiking strap does not meet any of these criteria.
 
As for the tape, unless the specific rule says you can use tape, such as 14(d) for the centreboard, then it's covered by rule 24, whch specifies you can use it to secure shackle pins and clips, bind sheets, lines and rigging, the shockcord for the hiking strap does not meet any of these criteria.
Hi
In this case I did understand your words of my photo 2, that with the tape. Of course, if photo 1 show an illegal way to lead the shock cord, it is illegal at photo 2, too.
Well, it seems rule 24 would probably let open a big discussion. I do not want such discussions. (Such as: "Do I really construct a new fitting..."? / "Do I really "modify the function" of an exsisting fitting..."? / "Is a shock cord not even just a "line" / part of the "rigging", that I bind to secure to its place..."? / "In which way the tape makes the hull more fast?"... etc. ... etc. ... Although, if one says / defines: The gudgeons are "fittings", too (this is not explicit said in the class rules!) LP-Europe themself "modify" this fitting "upper gudgeon", because they now fix it "topside down" to the transom to give the rudder pintle a better lead. In my opinion (and viewing to this issue here): "illegal" .. but... Does Jean Luc ever would forbid the original builder to do something they like to change? I guess: No ...). So, finally there is no other "exit" for me than to not tape the shockcord, finally. So, I'm afraid it is better now go and join 49208's smiley to eat a big bag of "chips" today (salt or pepper? what do you prefer)....

Cheers
LooserLu
 

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