Class Politics Is it time to allow digital compass'

pugwash

Member
I searched the forum but could not find a good explanation why digital compass' are not class legal. The one thread I found mentioned that the digital compass is class legal in the Fin fleet.

Seems to me that our fleet could move forward with this change.

The cost of a Nexus plus fittings is in the same ballpark as a Tacktick micro, kids in particular are used to digital displays not analogue any more. Finally when you sail on other racing boats/dinghys digital tactical compass' are the norm - so it helps transitions between fleets.

I was planning to buy a Nexus plus fittings but was interested to know what the future holds!
 
IMO, No.

Once you allow digital compasses, you'll get a request (or worse suddenly appearing) for GPS units, wind speed indicators, speedos etc, some of which are built in features of some digital compasses. From a measurers point of view, it's simpler to ban everything than to ban specific items, I really don't want to learn the ability of every piece of electronic equipment, so I know which pieces of equipment do more than the class rules permit.

The class is meant to be simple, get back to basics sailing, where skill is important. Electronic devices in general, take away the basic skills and gives the person who can afford the best electronic equipment an edge over the competition.
 
IMO, No.

Once you allow digital compasses, you'll get a request (or worse suddenly appearing) for GPS units, wind speed indicators, speedos etc, some of which are built in features of some digital compasses. From a measurers point of view, it's simpler to ban everything than to ban specific items, I really don't want to learn the ability of every piece of electronic equipment, so I know which pieces of equipment do more than the class rules permit.

The class is meant to be simple, get back to basics sailing, where skill is important. Electronic devices in general, take away the basic skills and gives the person who can afford the best electronic equipment an edge over the competition.

The only electronic device except handheld radios the Lightning class allows is the digital compass. They do have some limits though:

2) An electronic digital compass with chronograph (timer and/or clock).
The compass must be entirely self-contained with either an internal battery and/or solar power. The compass shall have no external connection and shall neither provide wind or boat speed nor compute correlations between time and distance.

The rule seemed to work well. If someone was willing to spend $500 on a Tack Tick that does the compass, tactical compass and countdown, they can when an old fashioned $300 compass does the job just as well.
 
kids in particular are used to digital displays not analogue any more.

First, a compass IS a digital display - it shows you the bearing in numerical format - it happens that the compasses permitted in the Laser class don't electronically display the number, but it IS digital. If kids can only read numbers displayed electronically and cannot read numbers printed on a compass card, the entire world is in serious trouble.

Secondly, Alan is very likley right. We would probably get "compass creep." Sailing is expensive enough without having to fork over big bucks for a compass.

T.U.M.
 
It'll be time to re-ask the question when digital compasses are *much* cheaper than magnetic compass card compasses, and the latter become not commonly available and difficult to find.

Not yet. Guessing between 5 and 10 years out.
 
One thing I think the class must address very urgently is to allow digital compasses incorporated into watches (i.e. on your wrist). A high proportion of sailing watches (i.e. with 5,4,1,0 countdown) also include an electronic compass that one's choice of watch is becoming very limited. Of course a compass in a watch is totally useless but disallowing such watches is just daft (and shows how incapable the class is at moving with any times).

As to the boat mounted ones - I really don't care. When I had a top of the range integrated navigation system (B&G Hercules), with compass, connected to laptop computer with tactical software, etc. (on an 38' Offshore One Design) I never really used it other than to give a numeric heading reading. (Laptop records were interesting to review after the race). I would stick with a traditional spinning magnet compass and would be very happy for others to spend their time pressing buttons on the mast and ignoring their sails and other boats !! But it is their choice. I don't actually know what these modern dinghy electronic compasses include these days but assuming very high functionality then I tend to assume that if somebody cannot tell headers and lifts from a normal compass then an electronic aid is just going to implement a set of rules without consideration to tides, wind bends, wind strengths, location of the lay lines, other boats, etc. - all of which can be part of the tack/gybe or hold-on decision. Thus for the less experienced they probably help little (or even hinder) and for the more experienced are unnecessary - so allow them.

But the watch situation needs sorting out very urgently and is not really part of the same discussion.

Ian
 
The only electronic device except handheld radios the Lightning class allows is the digital compass. They do have some limits though:

2) An electronic digital compass with chronograph (timer and/or clock).
The compass must be entirely self-contained with either an internal battery and/or solar power. The compass shall have no external connection and shall neither provide wind or boat speed nor compute correlations between time and distance.

The rule seemed to work well. If someone was willing to spend $500 on a Tack Tick that does the compass, tactical compass and countdown, they can when an old fashioned $300 compass does the job just as well.

People within the class already try to get illegal equipment past the measurers, why wouldn't they try to get illegal electronic equipment past the measurers. 85-95% of boats do not comply with the class rules currently, mostly through the owners ignorance of the class rules. Why create another area for them to not comply with the class rules?
 
Of course a compass in a watch is totally useless but disallowing such watches is just daft (and shows how incapable the class is at moving with any times).

The laser is a one design class, it means old boats and new boats are relatively equal. Changing the class everytime someone thinks of something new is not what the class is on about. If you want to sail a class that modifies the rules regularly, I suggest sailing an open/unrestricted design class.
 
The laser is a one design class, it means old boats and new boats are relatively equal. Changing the class everytime someone thinks of something new is not what the class is on about. If you want to sail a class that modifies the rules regularly, I suggest sailing an open/unrestricted design class.

My comment on watches was more about having a choice of watch. I am very strongly in favor of keeping the class a strict one design but do think that allowing useless compasses that are built into cheap watches to be worn by competitors will not really outmode older boats. Compasses built into watches is not new but becoming very widespread as manufacturers add more and more features.

On a more general note and from a personal perspective (and outside the subject of this thread) I believe it is critical that the class remain a strict one design and that the class move with the times - and these are not conflicting. This does not mean they have to allow a wide range of gear and performance add-ons. For example, on a commercial basis the class with its pricing structures is very out of date and needs to adapt and be more responsive to the commercial pressures in todays market place. Failure to do this will start to dent the popularity of the Laser. Many other major and minor examples. The class being responsive does not mean losing the strict one design aspects.

(When I say Class I do not mean just the Class Association but all aspects of control and management of the class).

Ian
 
IMO, regarding price of compasses, I think that once you are thinking about buying a compass you are getting serious about your sailing. Those that choose to get serious will then end up putting more of their money they have into sailing, so IMO I don't think that compass prices should be an issue at the moment. I agree with bjmoose in how when there is a large difference in price changes can be made then.
 
I searched the forum but could not find a good explanation why digital compass' are not class legal. The one thread I found mentioned that the digital compass is class legal in the Fin fleet.

Seems to me that our fleet could move forward with this change.

The cost of a Nexus plus fittings is in the same ballpark as a Tacktick micro, kids in particular are used to digital displays not analogue any more. Finally when you sail on other racing boats/dinghys digital tactical compass' are the norm - so it helps transitions between fleets.

I was planning to buy a Nexus plus fittings but was interested to know what the future holds!

Hi Digital Compass Salesman,

Please refer back to the "Should we allow Weatherfax?" posts.

I hate the idea of a digital compass and the flood of expensive electronic devices that would follow. This class is designed to make only changes to reduce the time needed to rig, increase sailor comfort, or decrease the dollars required to stay competitive.

Would you really perform better knowing you are 46.51 degrees off the wind? Or that you are running at 95.45 down the start?

I am, however, very empathetic of the high cost of a Nexus with deck mount. I found a used one on craigslist for more than half off.
 
I hate the idea of a digital compass and the flood of expensive electronic devices that would follow. This class is designed to make only changes to reduce the time needed to rig, increase sailor comfort, or decrease the dollars required to stay competitive.

I don't recall seeing a flood of new devices hitting the market after the Tacktick Micro came out. It's basically the only electronic compass that is used by those classes that allow electronic compasses AFAIK

Would you really perform better knowing you are 46.51 degrees off the wind? Or that you are running at 95.45 down the start?

I am, however, very empathetic of the high cost of a Nexus with deck mount. I found a used one on craigslist for more than half off.

I think the argument has been made that there are a number of sailors whose eyesight is such that having the big digital number display is their only option.

In a perverse way, it might be to the builders benefit to allow it. Imagine if they licensed a specific model, acquired the distribution rights and made that the only electronic compass class approved. You might think a Nexus was a bargain then
 
First, a compass IS a digital display - it shows you the bearing in numerical format - it happens that the compasses permitted in the Laser class don't electronically display the number, but it IS digital. If kids can only read numbers displayed electronically and cannot read numbers printed on a compass card, the entire world is in serious trouble.

Secondly, Alan is very likley right. We would probably get "compass creep." Sailing is expensive enough without having to fork over big bucks for a compass.

T.U.M.

I think digital has something to do with the method that data is processed and not much association with an actual number. In other words a standard Laser is not and never will be defined as "digital". In the same way that a digital examination for prostate cancer is not that high tech.
 
First, a compass IS a digital display - it shows you the bearing in numerical format - it happens that the compasses permitted in the Laser class don't electronically display the number, but it IS digital.

Hi Unknown Master,

No, you are incorrect. There may be children learning to read on this forum and you are obligated to provide them a higher level of education than this. What is the world coming to with Mommy Boats radioing juniors wind readings and shifts from the weather mark and folks slinging false statements on this forum?

The magnetic compass you are referring to is not digital.

Digital instruments are discrete. They are countable or signal based. Our compass readings on a digital compass are a finite set between {0,1,2,3... 359} and are bound to increments or steps of ones, tenths, hundreths or thousands, or ten thousands or the degree of accuracy we pay for. We have a countable number of readings. If you have accuracy to the tenths place, your set is {0,0.1,0.2,0.3.... 359.9} then you have 3599 possible values. This is by defination discrete. A Tacktick is a digital compass.

A magnetic compass is analog. Analog instruments are continuous. Our compass readings on an analog compass can be anywhere on the real line between [0,360). We have an infinite number of readings. A Ritchie is an analog compass.

Children, furthermore, please do not confuse electronic and non-electonic things as a clear difference between digital and analog. The maritime flags and race signals that we manage races with are digital. Cassette players are analog.

Now you know.. And knowing is half the battle..
 
I 'sort of' agree with Nate, but in defense of us (known and unknown) masters, let me point out

The output of an analog compass, the cue that we really use when we talk about heading, is a number.

The technology to get there, the guts of the instrument in other words, can be digital or analog, as others have already stated.
 
I'll add a little to Nate's explanation:

Actually, the title of this thread is incorrect. It should be "Is it time to allow electronic compasses?" Electronic as opposed to magnetic.

A compass works by reading (or sensing) the Earth's magnetic field(s). The traditional compass contains a magnet to sense the field. An electronic compass contains something called magneto-inductive technology. A marketing term for electronic devices that sense the magnetic field (as opposed to the magnet.)

The analog/digital difference is in the internals of how the compass works as opposed to how the information is displayed to the end user.

Yes, I have glossed over a lot of the technical details, but I hope this explanation is understandable.

Scott
 
Ignoring the sensor technology and readout, maybe the question is, should we allow the additional functionality many of these electronic devices provide (e.g. head/lift indication/angle, etc.).

I think the sensor/readout is not the issue - which is why I have a real thing about compasses in digital watches where the rules should change as so many digital watches include (useless) electronic compasses.

Apart from the watch thing, I really don't mind if they are allowed or not. I would probably abstain from a vote so if people want them fine, if they don't fine as well. I used to love the high tech B&G compass and associated systems of my OOD 38' but on a Laser I would stick with the standard spinning disk magnet "tactical" one (whatever it is called). That does not mean I would stop others going hi-tech (though I don't think it would give them much advantage - might mask a few errors they make and might cause a few more and might stop newcomers getting a feel for the wind - but its their choice not mine).

Ian
 
It'll be time to re-ask the question when digital compasses are *much* cheaper than magnetic compass card compasses, and the latter become not commonly available and difficult to find.

Not yet. Guessing between 5 and 10 years out.


Depending on the size of the magnetic compass you're talking about the time is now:
http://www.rockcitymarine.com/ I use one on my Express 27 and love it.

I'm on the fence regarding if these devices should be allowed on a Laser. Part of me says yes the boats should be simple and it should be up to the sailor and there should be as few external factors as possible. Plus there's a learning curve to new technology.

The other part of me says the technology is getting cheap, people don't generally win races because of electronic gadgets. Also if everyone had a GPS compass they could track their races and replay their tracks with their competitors, there are many applications of race tracking that are beneficial.

On a side note I haven't been a Laser owner since 97', but my wife has a Laser and it's making me jealous, I'm going to buy one this afternoon. Just an old 81' to bomb around the cottage with, not for racing (I say that now). But suffice it to say I'm excited to get back onto a Laser!
 
We had a Tactic that came with our last Star Boat. Loved the countdown timer and the large easy to read display. The lift/header function was distracting and about useless because the apparent wind angles change radically with velocity. Most people I know ignore that feature after the first few times on the water.

I have the Nexus compass for the Laser and would not go out and buy a Tactic to replace it if the rule changed. However, had the Tactic Micro been allowed when I bought the Laser, I would have bought it because between the Nexus and a Ronstan watch, you have nearly paid for the Tactic.

If you own and race more than one type of boat, the Tactic is easy to move between boats, so you can just have the one rather than a different one on each boat. That was pretty much the rational behind Snipes finally allowing the electronic compasses.
 
People have a huge misconception; it's not about the price. I don't think the ILCA could care less whether a digital compass cost more or less than a magnetic compass.

A magnetic compass is just that, a compass that has no other navigational or data collection, no speedo, no VMG, etc it solely gives you a heading. A digital compass will usually have a whole heap of other data available to be displayed and as a result you'll get compass creep as mentioned above. The measurers aren't going to make themselves aware of every digital compass and their capability on the market in order to control their use.

It would be much better IMO to make the use of all compasses illegal than to go into the situation where you have a sudden flood of technology into the class which was never intended. Even though I use a compass the trick to using it, is not to look at it, just the occasional glance to confirm what you're picking up from what's happening around you.

The laser is about sailing skill, not who has the latest bit of technology.
 
People have a huge misconception; it's not about the price. I don't think the ILCA could care less whether a digital compass cost more or less than a magnetic compass.

A magnetic compass is just that, a compass that has no other navigational or data collection, no speedo, no VMG, etc it solely gives you a heading. A digital compass will usually have a whole heap of other data available to be displayed and as a result you'll get compass creep as mentioned above. The measurers aren't going to make themselves aware of every digital compass and their capability on the market in order to control their use.

It would be much better IMO to make the use of all compasses illegal than to go into the situation where you have a sudden flood of technology into the class which was never intended. Even though I use a compass the trick to using it, is not to look at it, just the occasional glance to confirm what you're picking up from what's happening around you.

The laser is about sailing skill, not who has the latest bit of technology.

I beg to differ. Cost does factor in to this. When you see a Tacktick around $500, compared to some magnetic compasses that are maybe half the cost and dealing with any importing to other countries, there is an issue of cost.

Also digital compasses exist that are nothing more than a compass and a countdown timer. They are widly used in many other classes when the rule is in place where you can only use a digital compass that is self powered and can include a countdown timer. That's a Tacktick. I see no reason why that cannot be used. Besides if the class decided that they only allowed a digital compass with a certain set of functions, someone will make one to those specifications and they will get a great market share because they (the measurers) know that the compass is legal. That's also why I say the Tacktick micro is exactly what the class should set their rules to (a countdown timer, tactical compass and normal 360 degree setting). It saves space, cheaper to move around on flights, and you can use it on other boats rather than use the just the laser.

I also disagree that a compass should be illegal.
 
Did you actually read my post? I suspect not.

The issue of cost: This is not why the class authority doesn’t want digital compasses. It doesn't matter if digital compasses are 4 times more expensive or 4 times cheaper.

Digital compass features: It doesn't matter if some only have limited features, there are others out there that have 20 features and as measurers we'd need to be able to identify those which only have the legal features. To do that, we'd need to have a deep understanding of all the digital compasses on the market, world wide. Just because someone says it only does x, y and z doesn't mean it can't also do a,b,c,d,e,f,g...x,y and z, as measurers, we'd need to be able to identify exactly every feature each compass is capable of and next years model which was legal last year might have extra features that make it illegal. With a magnetic compass, it's pretty simple to tell.

Sailors in the class are pretty aware of the class rules and it's a constant struggle as it is to get them to sail within the class rules and not try to get some advantage over others. Every time the ILCA gives an inch, you guys attempt to take a mile in the hope that no one notices and you aren't caught. Go to a restricted world championships where the guys are on the circuit and measured regularly and you'll be amazed that the competitors are still trying to get away with the same thing that they were told 3 weeks earlier was illegal, or worse still changing back to the illegal methods after measuring which is only picked up as the boats are launching to go out racing.

Legality of compasses: I didn't say they should be illegal, just that I would prefer them to be illegal rather than permitting both magnetic and digital compasses. Take away the tool from everyone, rather than opening up a can of worms, which I strongly believe permitting digital compasses would result in.
 
I wasn't there fortunately, it's a thankless task and we're not on a gravy train like the IJ's, IU's and IRO's. I'm really uncertain if I'll apply again for re-accreditation.
 
I beg to differ. Cost does factor in to this. When you see a Tacktick around $500, compared to some magnetic compasses that are maybe half the cost and dealing with any importing to other countries, there is an issue of cost.

Also digital compasses exist that are nothing more than a compass and a countdown timer. They are widly used in many other classes when the rule is in place where you can only use a digital compass that is self powered and can include a countdown timer. That's a Tacktick. I see no reason why that cannot be used. Besides if the class decided that they only allowed a digital compass with a certain set of functions, someone will make one to those specifications and they will get a great market share because they (the measurers) know that the compass is legal. That's also why I say the Tacktick micro is exactly what the class should set their rules to (a countdown timer, tactical compass and normal 360 degree setting). It saves space, cheaper to move around on flights, and you can use it on other boats rather than use the just the laser.

I also disagree that a compass should be illegal.


Here where I live, if one is clever, f.e. one gets the Silva 103R for about 120 Euro or less, the Tacktic Compass here costs about 3x more (about 300-400 Euro) , compared to the Silva ...

A Taktick perhaps is a nice "gadget/gizmo" but only for rich sailors, I say. Are most Laserites "rich", if they think to buy something new for the boat? I don't think so....

Personally, I wouldn't feel good, as a rich competitor, with a Tacktic Compass mounted on my boat, while the rest of the racing fleet not is able to pay the Tacktick (not even being able to buy a in the moment here cheap rolled new Hyde sail).

To the other side: what a blame for me, if I would be the only sailor in the racing fleet with a Tacktick Compass and others without any compass sail in front of me...

Also:
Where would be the fundamental aspect of competing "all with equal equipement"? We know, the Laser is "not new" and has it's disadvantages, compared to modern designed single-helmsman sailing dinghies... But, as long we are racing all the same "old & slow" stuff, only that competitor with the best sailing skills finally wins, independent of the boat and equipment. That makes Lasersailing unique and still winning against most of all other sailingclasses, I guess.


Somewhere in the past I read: The French ILCA head-chief-measurer did secretly permitted us to use a modern maritime-wristwatch (from China or Korea now only cost about 30,- Euro or less) with a small digi-compass as long as not used in major events. In reason: Most of the modern sailing wristwatches, also the cheap ones, in our days don't come without a small digi-compass. This digi-compass in maximum only is usefull to find the correct windward (or leeward) mark, if one is in a leading position. But that small digi-compass of course is useless to recognize any smal windshift.

Finally: Where would it end, aft such a Tacktick Compass would be class legal? Next step, I would fight to have the same "electronic-bag" on my back (and the same electronic-sunglasses) like Ed Baird (former times: very successful professional Laserite) that did used this "bag" during he was the helmsman of Alinghi at the AC at Spain... Sure that "gizmo" he did use, cost more than 3x of that electronic "vintage" compass like the Tacktic that is invented about 15 yeas ago..., but who cares...


Ciao
LooserLu
 
Perhaps we have lost sight of one of the main reasons for wanting the Tacktick - it's not for any advantage (it's just a compass and a stopwatch after all), it's for those folks whose vision may not be good enough to clearly/easily see the bouncing numbers on the compasses allowed now.

Anyone who regularly sails with both styles of compass will be quick to point out that they both do the same thing, no more, no less

Bringing up cost seems silly. We are talking about racing sailboats which by itself already excludes a large portion of the population who can't afford to play the game and where this cost is but a small portion of the whole cost of campaigning - the argument has also already been made that a Tacktick is allowed and used in other classes so for some Laser sailors, it would actually save them money if they race in these other classes. It's also a one time expense, holds it's value reasonably well etc, unlike, for example, having to buy sails.

Give us a list of approved models and the sailors can/will police it ourselves. We do this already at every event where there is no measurer present. It would certainly be a lot easier to spot someone using a non approved compass as opposed to someone who has re-shaped their blades, recut their sail, or using non builder supplied tubing for their spars (things that actually produce a speed difference, unlike a compass)
 
Youch! Feeling a little burned after the measurement at last week's world's, Alan?

Alan deserves a GREAT deal of credit for all his work. I don't always agree with him, or the Class rules, but we badly need people like Alan. They give us the 'official' class perspective and (re)educate the 'experimenters' and 'new idea' people.

Tracy Usher also deserves kudos. Follows up on issues raised on the Forum and 'defends' the Laser concept of fairness quite well.

Thanks Alan and Tracy!
 
And Clive
Absolutely corect, Alan.

Sorry, "we" 've forgotten to mention him.

F.e.: He is kicking the builders butt (worldwide) in place of us "197000", if the result of the Laser production probably loses quality..and additionally, he is doing much more work (behind the curtains) for all sailing Laserites ...

Thanks a ton, Clive.

LooserLu
 
Bringing up cost seems silly. We are talking about racing sailboats which by itself already excludes a large portion of the population who can't afford to play the game and where this cost is but a small portion of the whole cost of campaigning - the argument has also already been made that a Tacktick is allowed and used in other classes so for some Laser sailors, it would actually save them money if they race in these other classes. It's also a one time expense, holds it's value reasonably well etc, unlike, for example, having to buy sails.

Cost and availability worldwide are probably the final hurdles. The last I saw, the TackTick you reference (compass and stopwatch only - no tactical functions) is going for about $400 US and is significantly more outside of the US and Western Europe and is hard/impossible to get in some regions. Still, as time goes forward the price continues to drop and worldwide availability improves so at some point it would be silly not to allow an electronic compass.

An irrelevant anecdote... I stopped using a compass this last year... unitl I got to St Margaret's Bay and was trying to sail back to the club through the fog. Now that was an adventure! Visibility of about 20 yards, sailing for 30 minutes in a strange area heading for an unfamiliar shoreline. So, compass was sent out before the start of Master Worlds!
 
"The issue of cost: This is not why the class authority doesn’t want digital compasses. It doesn't matter if digital compasses are 4 times more expensive or 4 times cheaper."

Not what I was told by Tracy Usher - he said it was a cost thing and strongly objected to by various national assoctiations on that basis. I am sure it is possble now to market an electronic compass cheaper than the standard nexus ones, so the cost argument fails in my opinion. The issue for me is being able to read the damn thing in rough weather when glasses are not practical. I've spend many time more than the cost of an electronic compass messing about with sunglass/optical inserts etc. trying to read my Nexus compass. How about a Grand Masters and older rule to allow big digit electronic compasses? Or shall I spend more money going to contacts?

And who upset Allan lately?
 
I think you're missing the point. There are other issues involved than cost.

As for the other question, no one around here. This forums has been dead quiet lately.
 
In a perverse way, it might be to the builders benefit to allow it. Imagine if they licensed a specific model, acquired the distribution rights and made that the only electronic compass class approved. You might think a Nexus was a bargain then

Hmmm... that would just like the $600 OEM sail....:eek:
 

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