Class Politics The class IS listening

Well, I'd agree they are listening. It's giving them ulcers and headaches and pain where they sit, but yeah, they're listening.

Bottom line is, I agree with Fred, there's nothing the Class can do. The builders hold all the cards. They own the Laser trademark, and have the exclusive right to market everything for the Laser toy boat.

Fred's also right that we could form a US Laser group, make our own rules and allow any brand of sail to be used in our US regattas (built to specs, of course). But . . . we're sailors and we just want to go race our Lasers, not get involved in petty politics, right?

For all the years I served as a Class officer, I tried my damnedest to be the consumer advocate that the Class reps should be. Made myself E X T R E M E L Y unpopular with the builder, who viewed me alternately as a pain in the patootie or an outright threat to his profit margin.

I'll never forget a wise fellow once sent me an e-mail saying "the more they try to slap you down, the more you should be convinced you're doing the right thing for the Class members"

But it takes SO much energy to keep on spitting into the wind. Your elected Class reps are doing as much as they can, that is to convey the needs of the members to the builder, and to keep hammering away for changes, like a moth against a light bulb.

I would pin my hopes right now on the economic downturn. If the builders think they can boost sales of sails this next year or two (while those of us without sponsors or wealthy parents scrape to buy anything discretionary) by introducing the new sail design, they'll do it.

But don't look for a price reduction until everybody gets together and boycotts sail purchases for a year or two. (It's possible to herd cats, too) Lainie
 
..

The Class could decide AT ANY TIME to approve any sails or equipment it chooses to consider legal for racing.

..

Thanks for the 'xplainin'.

Bottom line is: we could if we wanted to. Apparently we don't. That's not cynical at all.

Cynical in my eyes is when people here try to make us believe that the existing system, to rely on a monopoly, is in the sailors best interest.
 
It sounds like you have a sail from our first batch. Our thread tension was off on the foot. This has been corrected in all other sails. Our quality control has kept our consistency for t past 3 years after the first batches corrections. We build sails now in 100 piece batches and are able to increase production as needed. Our firmer cloth is the cause of the difference in cunningham tensions. It provides longevity so we go with it. In my personal sailing I have always found our sails to sail level with the class legal sails. I have always sailed to my level with no advantage or disadvantage coming from the sail.

BTW please contact me so we can swap out the sail with the bad foot.

Interesting to know and (IMO) good customer service offering to replace a 2 year old sail FOC (aside from postage costs maybe). I agree here though that although the sail does trim slightly differently due to being made of a firmer cloth there really is no difference between that and genuine sail (aside from price).

If only there was an importer of Intensity sails in the UK. There is someone who does this intermittently and sells them on Ebay. Most of the UK replicas are made of the same weight cloth as the class sails and dont have the lifespan on the Intensity.
 
One more trump card that the Class and builders hold is Olympic status. This is a prestigious thing that worldwide holds a lot of weight with Class officers.

ISAF and IOC base the choice of Olympic classes upon some strict parameters, and opening up the rules to allow any brand of sail would compromise the "one design parameters" of the Laser in their narrow minds.

There are those of us who think Olympic status has not enhanced the quality of the Class as it attracted the elite group of prima donnas who buy a new sail for every regatta, and are sponsored to sail full time. They are able to "buy" every advantage available to enhance their performance, which discourages the weekend sailor who shows up at a big regatta with virtually no chance of winning a trophy. But I digress . .

The basic premise remains - the sails are poor quality and cost too much. Even if the new design is adopted, the cost of Class-legal sails is still an issue for most people. I still think limiting sail purchases is one step the Class could EASILY take to help level the playing field for the majority of Laser sailors. They propose it, then you have to VOTE for it.

FYI a further aspect of Olympic status is that Olympic contenders tend to make the most noise to grab the attention of your Class reps, who tend to forget that they comprise less than 5% of their members. The sqeaky wheel gets the grease, so

SQUEAK, PEOPLE! SQUEAK!
 
Let me do a 180 and explain why it IS in our best interest to let the monoply builders control their own businesses..

The builders have bills to pay, employees to feed and families of their own to feed. They want the Laser game to continue so they can continue to feast of of it. They MUST keep their product good enough to maintain the customer base or their financial world will crumble.

Messing with the boat must always be done carefully.
1. The boat has to continue to be marketable
2. The builder must continue to make a profit

Buy our really great boat that is built with a very short serviceable racing life...


Has fed lots of families for over 30 years.

and the game played by the customers has been teh best one design single handed sailing game for a very long time.

It is reasonable to believe in continuing with that which works.


Note: I think they are screwing us royaly by failing to build the very best product they can possibly produce, but by gum they are PROFESSIONALS!!!!
 
... and opening up the rules to allow any brand of sail would compromise the "one design parameters" of the Laser in their narrow minds.

I had never realised this was what was being discussed. I thought the new sail idea was for a limited number of manufacturers to provide a better lasting sail, ideally giving no performance advantage (or penalty). Certainly opening-up the supply of sails to any manufacturer would be something I would be against as it would definitely take the boat a long way from its "strict one design". It would very quickly result in endless discussions about this that or the other sail designer having a faster sail. Some people would attribute their (poor) results to a duff sail and winge about company x being "slow". There are loads of classes with that available and for me one of the attractions of the Laser is that this happens less.

Of course I would like a cheaper sail and/or a sail that lasts longer, etc. but that is very different from wanting to allow "any brand of sails".

Ian
 
I had never realised this was what was being discussed. I thought the new sail idea was for a limited number of manufacturers to provide a better lasting sail, ideally giving no performance advantage (or penalty). Certainly opening-up the supply of sails to any manufacturer would be something I would be against as it would definitely take the boat a long way from its "strict one design". It would very quickly result in endless discussions about this that or the other sail designer having a faster sail. Some people would attribute their (poor) results to a duff sail and winge about company x being "slow". There are loads of classes with that available and for me one of the attractions of the Laser is that this happens less.

Of course I would like a cheaper sail and/or a sail that lasts longer, etc. but that is very different from wanting to allow "any brand of sails".

Ian

The only thing being tested/discussed is a new design from the existing suppliers.
 
Let me do a 180 and explain why it IS in our best interest to let the monoply builders control their own businesses..

The builders have bills to pay, employees to feed and families of their own to feed. They want the Laser game to continue so they can continue to feast of of it.

...

I would have thought in an ideal world it should be an equitable balance. Of course a company has to make a profit, pay employees, etc. and of course a customer wants a keen price. When the balance is right most people should be happy. However, maybe in the world today the greed factor takes over and it is no longer about a fair price for a fair product giving a fair profit (etc.) but more about separating the customer from as much of their money as you can.

I'm not an economist but can see that when you have good free competition, whilst the greed factor is still present, it has to be balanced against your competitors greed. It is about making as much money as you can rather than making as much profit per article as you can (OK I accept its a bit more compex as you need to bring in return on investment and profit as a percentage of turnover, etc., plus some aspects of maintaining your market, etc, etc.).

In some respects a Laser is a monopoly. The builder is only really competing for market share rather than against equivalent products. Given that the Laser is so dominant in its class (i.e. one design, single hander, large fleets, quick to rig, etc.) the builders have to do little to sell the boat to people looking for such a class. Competitors face something of an uphill struggle. Thus, the builders have much greater scope to set their pricing independant of other companies. Less competition means they can exploit their customer base more and greed (excessive margins) can become a bigger factor.

How I see it anyway. As to if/how much this happens with Lasers - everybody will have their own opinions.

Ian
 
There are lots of businesses where a similar investment could make more profit for the builders.

They must in some way be in the small boat business out of a love for small sailboats.

But the fact they might make a bit less money if they supplied fabulous sails does not deter me the customer and end user from wanting a high quality product.
 
Let me do a 180 and explain why it IS in our best interest to let the monoply builders control their own businesses..

The builders have bills to pay, employees to feed and families of their own to feed. They want the Laser game to continue so they can continue to feast of of it. They MUST keep their product good enough to maintain the customer base or their financial world will crumble.

Messing with the boat must always be done carefully.
1. The boat has to continue to be marketable
2. The builder must continue to make a profit

Buy our really great boat that is built with a very short serviceable racing life...


Has fed lots of families for over 30 years.

and the game played by the customers has been teh best one design single handed sailing game for a very long time.

It is reasonable to believe in continuing with that which works.


Note: I think they are screwing us royaly by failing to build the very best product they can possibly produce, but by gum they are PROFESSIONALS!!!!

I haven't been involved in sailing that long and in laser sailing for just over 2 years. I saw my first finns up close this fall at a regatta & the first thing that came to mind was the difference between the finn & laser is like the difference between a porsche and my miata.

my miata is a cheap easy way to get into a really fun 2 seat convertible, but you can't mistake it for a porsche. Likewise my laser was a really cheap and easy way to get into some fun & very challenging sailing, but its a whole different thing from sailing and owning a finn & both the miata and the laser are a whole lot more accessable to me that the porsche or the finn!

So as the gouv so eloquently says they are screwing us royally -- and I still love sailing my laser and driving my miata
 
There are lots of businesses where a similar investment could make more profit for the builders.

They must in some way be in the small boat business out of a love for small sailboats.

But the fact they might make a bit less money if they supplied fabulous sails does not deter me the customer and end user from wanting a high quality product.


earlier I tried to make the point that they could come out with a much better product and sell it for a higher price & still make more money and have happier laser sailors. So here goes again:
only a very small percentage of sailors buy a new sail every major regatta (2%- 5%?). A significantly greater percentage buy a new sail every year (25%-50%?). The rest of us buy a new sail less frequently or buy the old sails from the ones buying new sails once a year or more.

If the new sail stayed competitive for 2 years of racing, then the 5% would still be buying multiple sails a year because of the number of days they sail. The ones who buy a sail once a year would now go to once every 2 years, but that means that I don't have nearly as many old sails to buy, so I am more likely to buy a new one every other year too.

So if the cost of the sail that stayed competitive for 2 years is 1.25x the current cost, and the builder/dealer sells it for 1.5x the current price, then the builder/dealer probably makes more money & we gripe about the exorbitant price, but if the quality really is such that it is competitive for 2 years, then I think people are happier & willing to pay & the builder/dealer makes more profit per sail and probably more profit per year.

...of course as you said somewhere else - they are the professionals and they have real marketing gurus with real excel spreadsheets that must prove the above logic all wrong. So I will continue with my crappy old class legal sail that I use once a year and otherwise I'll use my intensity sail -- both ways I'm on the water and having fun!!

... btw Sunday it was 24kts 10min average gusting to 30+. Some people actually had their boats flat for most of the upwind legs. I wasn't one of them, but I did survive it and had a blast and we had 14 lasers plus 4 other boats in our portsmouth fleet
 

Back
Top