Class Politics Restricted Entry to Masters World Champs

Grant_in_Qtown

New Member
I have just found out that from 2009 onwards Masters World Championships will have a restricted entry with numbers of places being allocated to countries. Is this not against the general principals of the more social aspects of masters sailing? Yes, it is important for the top sailors to have good quality sailing but the fleet system can sort that out.

At Terrigal I am told there were problems with dealing with the number of fleets from a single start line. Surely then two separate courses with independent start finish lines would solve that problem.

These events are unique events to foster the sport and give those of us in our middle age years opportunities and excuses to travel to new places. It's disappointing that those of us who languish in the middle of the fleet can no longer do that.

So what do other sailors think? Should we lobby ILCA for a change? Do we need to have other events that can take the place of the WC's for those of us who would never qualify?
 
As usual...This writer thinks the Class is missing the point of its existence.

The job of the class is not to be in charge while exerting minimal effort.

The job of the class is not to keep us away and make it easy for the organizers of our various events to run things with minimal effort.

The job of the class is to organize the game and help it prosper.

When our class officers and employees start to act as though they are allowed to tell us we have to cut down our game to SUIT THEIR NEEDS, we need to remove them from a position of authority.
 
Maybe finding a club in the US with the capability to run multiple courses is difficult? They seem to pull it off at Charleston Race Week and Key West with no problems.

I was looking forward to attending my first Laser Worlds, but now that is in doubt.

Any specifics on the qualification requirements?
 
I have just found out that from 2009 onwards Masters World Championships will have a restricted entry with numbers of places being allocated to countries. Is this not against the general principals of the more social aspects of masters sailing? Yes, it is important for the top sailors to have good quality sailing but the fleet system can sort that out.

At Terrigal I am told there were problems with dealing with the number of fleets from a single start line. Surely then two separate courses with independent start finish lines would solve that problem.

These events are unique events to foster the sport and give those of us in our middle age years opportunities and excuses to travel to new places. It's disappointing that those of us who languish in the middle of the fleet can no longer do that.

So what do other sailors think? Should we lobby ILCA for a change? Do we need to have other events that can take the place of the WC's for those of us who would never qualify?

I sailed in Terrigal and thought it was a first rate event. Perhaps we could have squeezed in 1 or 2 more races if there had been two course areas, not clear given the weather that Mother Nature threw at us the first part of that week. And you could not convince me that one group had any "better" sailing over another because of the staggering of the racing. In the end it seemed even to me.

Anyway, ILCA has gone over to a new system (described on the ILCA website) for entering ALL world championships which will try to insure that as many people as possible, from all over the world, are able to enter. This has been mentioned before (e.g. in this thread) so it should be no surprise at this point. The basic idea is to let people sign up and then push back to the regions to have them decide how to order the list. If there are more people than spots then the remaining people go on the wait list, if there are fewer people than spots then there is no issue.

With respect to the Master Worlds...

1) Will there be a limitation on the number of entries? Yes. Just ast there always has been, the event organizers will, at some point, have a limit on how many boats they can handle. In fact, entries were limited in places like Ireland (300 though they took a few more) in 2001, Hyannis (again limited to 300 but they accommodated a few more) in 2002, Cadiz (again, the same) in 2003 and then starting again in Roses (400+ - the largest championship Laser regatta ever held) and in Terrigal (originally 300 but extended to, I believe, 350 in the end) this past year. Turkey in 2004 and Jeju in 2006 were undersubscribed, my recollection was that Fortaleza in 2005 was effectively limited by the 160 charter boats available even though the venue could have taken more, and the same was true in Cancun in 2000.

Entries to all Master Worlds in the past were first come first serve. If you didn't register early you ran the risk of ending up on the wait list. In some cases you didn't get in. This has happened to people who visit this forum. Under this system it was possible (and did happen) that certain regions were oversubscribed.

Going forward ILCA is looking for venues that can handle 300-400 boats for the Master Worlds (and already the pickings get to be slim).


2) Why go to a quota system? The bottom line is to try to prevent the host country from oversubscribing entries. The most recent example is the Terrigal Master Worlds where the entry limit was hit within days, locking out potential competitors from the other regions (though, in the end, a large number of people made it in through the wait list).

3) Will I have to qualify to go to the Master Worlds? It depends on what region you are in. In North America we typically send around 25-30 sailors to the Master Worlds which is a fair number. Some of those sailors are "regulars" at the Master Worlds, they train hard and are regulars on the North American Regatta circuit. Some are not and look at the Master Worlds as a great sailing vacation. Its not our goal to break up something which appeals to so many so the system which is under discussion will be pretty liberal and, in the end, will have the barest of filters, relying primarily on "first come first serve".

There may be pressure on North America in 2009 because the event is "local" to our region. My understanding is that the hosts have agreed to supporting a very large number of entries... I believe it is more than 300, perhaps Andy Roy (a frequenter of TLF) can tell us what the number is. And, as has been past history, I'm sure if there is lots of pressure to take more boats they will find a way to accommodate a few more... So, in the end, it is believed that the venue should be able to accommodate pretty much everyone who wants to go.

4) If I want to sail at the Master Worlds in 2009, how do I get in? Make sure you sign up the day that entries open. Which is the same thing I have always told anyone.

I should also note, the Master World's is not a cheap event, especially for those from the US (with the US dollar where it is now). While a great event, its worth noting that there are many Master's events in North America which are in interesting places, are great sailing and are also great fun - all for a lot less money. Check out the Master's Calendar for a great event near you this Summer!
 
Tracy,

Many thanks for your clarifications. I also have heard that Terrigal was a great event but if the limiting of numbers is because of issues with handling boats then that is something that can be fixed.

Selection criteria is a worry. Again I do not know for sure but have heard that New Zealand will only have 5 places allocated this year. We sent 38 to Terrigal (much closer than Halifax but still an indication of the demand from here). We may be a small country but we have many sailors. In the latest Olympic class rankings there are three kiwis in the top ten for Laser. No other country has more than one. So for a mid fleeter like me to gain a place at the Worlds would be difficult in the extreme. Likewise any selection races for NZ will be in the North Island and therefore expensive for southerners to get to.

Here's hoping that ILCA will ensure that venues can cater for large entries so that there is plenty of scope to get in on waitlists.
 
I sailed in Terrigal and thought it was a first rate event. Perhaps we could have squeezed in 1 or 2 more races if there had been two course areas, not clear given the weather that Mother Nature threw at us the first part of that week. And you could not convince me that one group had any "better" sailing over another because of the staggering of the racing. In the end it seemed even to me.

Anyway, ILCA has gone over to a new system (described on the ILCA website) for entering ALL world championships which will try to insure that as many people as possible, from all over the world, are able to enter. This has been mentioned before (e.g. in this thread) so it should be no surprise at this point. The basic idea is to let people sign up and then push back to the regions to have them decide how to order the list. If there are more people than spots then the remaining people go on the wait list, if there are fewer people than spots then there is no issue.

With respect to the Master Worlds...

1) Will there be a limitation on the number of entries? Yes. Just ast there always has been, the event organizers will, at some point, have a limit on how many boats they can handle. In fact, entries were limited in places like Ireland (300 though they took a few more) in 2001, Hyannis (again limited to 300 but they accommodated a few more) in 2002, Cadiz (again, the same) in 2003 and then starting again in Roses (400+ - the largest championship Laser regatta ever held) and in Terrigal (originally 300 but extended to, I believe, 350 in the end) this past year. Turkey in 2004 and Jeju in 2006 were undersubscribed, my recollection was that Fortaleza in 2005 was effectively limited by the 160 charter boats available even though the venue could have taken more, and the same was true in Cancun in 2000.

Entries to all Master Worlds in the past were first come first serve. If you didn't register early you ran the risk of ending up on the wait list. In some cases you didn't get in. This has happened to people who visit this forum. Under this system it was possible (and did happen) that certain regions were oversubscribed.

Going forward ILCA is looking for venues that can handle 300-400 boats for the Master Worlds (and already the pickings get to be slim).


2) Why go to a quota system? The bottom line is to try to prevent the host country from oversubscribing entries. The most recent example is the Terrigal Master Worlds where the entry limit was hit within days, locking out potential competitors from the other regions (though, in the end, a large number of people made it in through the wait list).

3) Will I have to qualify to go to the Master Worlds? It depends on what region you are in. In North America we typically send around 25-30 sailors to the Master Worlds which is a fair number. Some of those sailors are "regulars" at the Master Worlds, they train hard and are regulars on the North American Regatta circuit. Some are not and look at the Master Worlds as a great sailing vacation. Its not our goal to break up something which appeals to so many so the system which is under discussion will be pretty liberal and, in the end, will have the barest of filters, relying primarily on "first come first serve".

There may be pressure on North America in 2009 because the event is "local" to our region. My understanding is that the hosts have agreed to supporting a very large number of entries... I believe it is more than 300, perhaps Andy Roy (a frequenter of TLF) can tell us what the number is. And, as has been past history, I'm sure if there is lots of pressure to take more boats they will find a way to accommodate a few more... So, in the end, it is believed that the venue should be able to accommodate pretty much everyone who wants to go.

4) If I want to sail at the Master Worlds in 2009, how do I get in? Make sure you sign up the day that entries open. Which is the same thing I have always told anyone.

I should also note, the Master World's is not a cheap event, especially for those from the US (with the US dollar where it is now). While a great event, its worth noting that there are many Master's events in North America which are in interesting places, are great sailing and are also great fun - all for a lot less money. Check out the Master's Calendar for a great event near you this Summer!

Tracy,

Nice summation. You nailed all the points. I don't know if the 2009 organizers have an entry limit set for the Masters, but I will try to find out.
 
What are the rules for which country's quota your entry is counted against if you live in one country but hold citizenship in another? I am a citizen of Denmark and a resident alien in the US.
 
What are the rules for which country's quota your entry is counted against if you live in one country but hold citizenship in another? I am a citizen of Denmark and a resident alien in the US.

Mr. H are you trying to sneak in on this:D
 
Rob,

Nothing sneaky about it, but I need to know what the rules are so I can act accordingly when the qualification criteria become know. I would also think that this is a question of interest to other US resident Laser sailors who hold non US citizenship.
 
What are the rules for which country's quota your entry is counted against if you live in one country but hold citizenship in another? I am a citizen of Denmark and a resident alien in the US.

I would assume you only pay class dues in one country. I think it would be fair to use that country for quota purposes.
 
It sounds like bad news for the game overall.

Like others, I was looking forward to participating in a Masters Worlds. If NZ will further restrict placings, I know of at least five guys better than me, so the dream is over.

ILCA need to understand that one of the amazing selling points of the Laser is that a boy or girl can dream about becoming an Olympic sailor in the same class of boat he was sailing at age 12. He or she can actually sail an olympic class sail boat at an affordable price. As time progresses and realities become apparent, the olympics may fade from view, but other divisions are still possible. The only thing holding the sailor focused on improvement was themselves and a lofty goal. That's how it works, einsteins! Now the ILCA have stepped in and elimiated the choice. The horizon has been unecessarily removed from view.

The argument of social event vs serious racing need not be mutually exclusive. Since we're all familiar with the structure of International rules, whether you come mid fleet because you weren't as serious, or as skilled, as the guy who came first over the line is irelevent.

I agree with gouvernail: Once officials start fluffing their nest and deciding they know everything about everything it's time to turn them out.

Now you brain boxes at ILCA tell me: What's keeping me and hundreds of others in this class?

I doubt you give a damn, since there are at least another 100,000 candidates to choose from. But this is how the decline starts. Business sense lads, you're losing it.
 
Rob,

Nothing sneaky about it, but I need to know what the rules are so I can act accordingly when the qualification criteria become know. I would also think that this is a question of interest to other US resident Laser sailors who hold non US citizenship.


Just razzing you:D I realize the topic is serious, but I just wante to poke at you some:p
 
I agree with gouvernail: Once officials start fluffing their nest and deciding they know everything about everything it's time to turn them out.

Now you brain boxes at ILCA tell me: What's keeping me and hundreds of others in this class?

I doubt you give a damn, since there are at least another 100,000 candidates to choose from. But this is how the decline starts. Business sense lads, you're losing it.

How is this about ILCA fluffing their own nests???

All they are doing is trying to find a way of controlling the entry numbers for the Masters Worlds that is fair to all. The numbers have to be restricted in some way and have been for several years now - without restrictions of some sort, ILCA wouldn't be able to find anyone to host the regatta. I'm sure they have enough trouble as it is.

Terrigal entries were on a first come first serve basis. This led to 75% of the fleet being from Australia and NZ. Plenty of people from other regions rightly said that this wasn't fair or representative and complained. ILCA are responding and trying to do something about it. Sounds to me like they are doing what they were elected to do.

I'd be amazed if anyone in the class management would even consider doing anything that might change the fun/social nature of the Masters Worlds. Remember they're mostly Masters sailors who like having fun too. They are simply looking for a better solution to a long standing problem. If you have a better solution, I'm sure they would love to hear it.
 
Here's one:

Schedule a master's Worlds at Kingston, Ontario.


Require a $100 Canadian money deposit to secure a spot and close acceptance of deposits if and only if the entries exceed 1000 boats..

Let anybody who can find a boat and get there enter and, unless the 1000 boat threshhold is exceeded, don't close entries until the night before the event.

I imagine the venue that hosts CORK in Europe could handle the same sort of numbers of entries.

My take??
The goal ought to be to find a venue that can handle 10,000 entires and to get the 10,000 to show up.

There are places

We are tourists with money

There are places

Giving up and chopping the game down to fit the ambitions of our officers and hirelings is unacceptable
 
So, is this restricted entry thing set in stone for the 09 masters worlds? What will the total entry limit be? How many US slots will there be?
 
Selection criteria is a worry. Again I do not know for sure but have heard that New Zealand will only have 5 places allocated this year. We sent 38 to Terrigal (much closer than Halifax but still an indication of the demand from here). We may be a small country but we have many sailors. In the latest Olympic class rankings there are three kiwis in the top ten for Laser. No other country has more than one. So for a mid fleeter like me to gain a place at the Worlds would be difficult in the extreme. Likewise any selection races for NZ will be in the North Island and therefore expensive for southerners to get to.

I'm wondering if you might be confusing the Laser Senior Worlds with the Laser Master Worlds here? The Laser Senior Worlds are limited to 160 entrants and have many more countries participating so entry quotas for all countries are much tighter (indeed, the NA Region - the US and Canada - only had 14 last year). Given that New Zealand had four sailors at the Laser Senior Worlds in Terrigal, I'm guessing that five is probably the number for the 2009 Laser Senior Worlds in Halifax.

For the Master Worlds it has to be much higher since there will be something like twice the number of boats sailing (or more) with many fewer countries participating.
 
So, is this restricted entry thing set in stone for the 09 masters worlds? What will the total entry limit be? How many US slots will there be?

Yes, it is set in the same stone that it has always been in: the regatta hosts will set a limit above which they feel they will not be able to provide the quality event that the Master's sailors demand. If demand is very high then, as in the past, I'm sure they will try to raise that limit to attempt to let in as many sailors as possible while trying to compromise the event as little as possible. I'm gathering from Andy's post that this limit has not yet been determined but I can't imagine it being below 300 which is pretty close to what the demand was when the event was last in North America (Hyannis, in the heart of the bulk of Laser sailing in North America).

What is new next year is that ILCA is being proactive in putting in place a system that will try to make sure that the event is not oversubscribed by the host region before people from other regions have a chance to enter. It means that initially many people from the host region may end up on the waiting list but I'll bet nearly everyone makes it in once ILCA goes through its reallocation process (which they do already for every event).

As I type this I don't know that the initial US and/or Canadian allocations will be. But that probably doesn't matter, once the allocations are used up the remaining people will go on the wait list and probably get in when ILCA does its reallocations (and remember that one thing Halifax has going against it here is that it violates the eleventh commandment: though shall not hold a Master Worlds in a non-tropical location!). In the end, I'm pretty confident that most, if not all, the sailors who really want to go will be accommodated.
 
What are the rules for which country's quota your entry is counted against if you live in one country but hold citizenship in another? I am a citizen of Denmark and a resident alien in the US.

The apple pie and motherhood response:
If you have legal residence and actively race in the North American Region then you should have membership here and should enter the event that way.

The reality response:
However, if you are also a member of your home country's association then nothing would stop you from entering through that association. ILCA will send the list of people wanting to sail in an event to the secretary for the association you list in your entry and it will be up to them to decide what to do with your entry. I'd imagine if there were slots available and you were a member it would be no problem.

We're not the police, the number of people that can exercise this loophole is small, the end goal is to get as many sailors in to the event as possible and, besides, it leaves one more spot in system of the country/region you live in.
 
How is this about ILCA fluffing their own nests???

All they are doing is trying to find a way of controlling the entry numbers for the Masters Worlds that is fair to all. The numbers have to be restricted in some way and have been for several years now - without restrictions of some sort, ILCA wouldn't be able to find anyone to host the regatta. I'm sure they have enough trouble as it is.
Well bummer for them, fancy having to do their job!

If the class grows, the organisational structure needs to be increased, what would you do?

1) Remove your participants and associated cashflow?

2) Or Streamline and improve your adminstration?

Basic stuff.

Who do they think is buying all their ILCA class legal gear all these years?

I don't have too much respect for politicians who whine their job is too big for them. It's no surprise that they then limit participation to cover their short comings and then try to sell you that their ineptitude is reasonable.

If you'd just all remain controllable and not question that you can't participate anymore and keep buying our class legal gear that'll be just peachy!

And mate, I'm sure someone can pick the difference between the senior worlds and the masters.
 
My take??
The goal ought to be to find a venue that can handle 10,000 entires and to get the 10,000 to show up.

I don't agree that a bigger regatta is automatically better. For me, the quality of racing is degraded once there are more than 75 or so boats in the fleet. About 55-60 seems perfect, as long as there is enough space to set a decent length course. Multiplied by a potential 11 fleets at a Masters Worlds (not counting 4.7s which I'm sure will happen one day) and that's already a massive regatta - I don't see how going even bigger would improve anything.

Of course there are ways of fitting more boats in (split fleets, multiple courses, staggered racing, etc) but I don't think that this improves the experience for the sailors - it just adds to the management and cost to the sailors and keeps the sailors sitting around the venue for longer, rather than in the pub where every true Masters sailor should be when not racing.
 
Well bummer for them, fancy having to do their job!

If people start thinking that the ILCA is a 'they' rather than a 'we', the class has problems. The ILCA is run by unpaid volunteers elected by us who are supported by a handful of paid staff. They (both the volunteers and the staff) seem to do a pretty good job most of the time. I don't agree with everything they do, but I have a huge amount of gratitude to them for doing it, especially after the great time I had in Terrigal. At the end of the day they are doing it for the love of Laser sailing, nothing more.

I've been lurking on this forum and the Laser email list for too long not to know why Gouvernail has an axe to grind. I'm not sure why your criticism is so harsh, but it seems to me to be uninformed and misguided. It's the kind of thing that, if I were one of the class volunteers, would make me wonder why I bother.

And by the way, we buy our class legal parts from the Laser builders, not the ILCA.
 
I don't agree that a bigger regatta is automatically better. For me, the quality of racing is degraded once there are more than 75 or so boats in the fleet. About 55-60 seems perfect, as long as there is enough space to set a decent length course. Multiplied by a potential 11 fleets at a Masters Worlds (not counting 4.7s which I'm sure will happen one day) and that's already a massive regatta - I don't see how going even bigger would improve anything.

Of course there are ways of fitting more boats in (split fleets, multiple courses, staggered racing, etc) but I don't think that this improves the experience for the sailors - it just adds to the management and cost to the sailors and keeps the sailors sitting around the venue for longer, rather than in the pub where every true Masters sailor should be when not racing.

To me the issue is whether the World Masters is for the best sailors or for all the sailors. If selection is required then there needs to be other international events for us mid-fleeters. I can think of nothing better than using sailing as my excuse for an exotic holiday but if I have to qualify through my country selection process then I have no chance.

Management is an issue with a large event. I would have thought that 11 fleets from a single start line was not manageable anyway and should have been on 2 or 3 separate courses. Yes management does need to be ramped up for these events and perhaps that is where the professional efforts of our class association should go.

By all means have some places reserved for selected sailors (perhaps 100 places based on world rankings) but why can the rest not be on a first come first served basis with each venue having to cater for a large number of sailors. I'm with Gouv - if we could get thousands of lasers on the water at a single venue that would be fantastic.
 
By all means have some places reserved for selected sailors (perhaps 100 places based on world rankings) but why can the rest not be on a first come first served basis with each venue having to cater for a large number of sailors. I'm with Gouv - if we could get thousands of lasers on the water at a single venue that would be fantastic.

Insert here one of those dynamic emoticons showing me banging my head against the wall... repeatedly.

At this point I guess I would suggest that you put the question to your national authority about what they think they are going to do. I've already said that in North America the system will be, effectively, first come first serve AS IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN.

I just don't know what else I can say on this topic.
 
smiley-bangheadonwall-yellow.gif
 
Anyone who thinks that making the regatta bigger will solve the issues is dreaming. The only reason these regattas exist is due to the massive army of volunteers who donate their time freely. These people are not ILCA elected officials, and in many cases not even association members. They just donate what time they can. At Terrigal volunteers had to take a full week off work to assist for the senior regatta. Another week then had to be taken for the Master's worlds. Massive effort - these people should never be allowed to pay for their own beer.

Was this not the reason the Master's worlds were moved from Portugal to Roses last year? The volunteer army turned up for the senior worlds, but couldn’t commit to another week for the Masters. Bigger event = more volunteers and more clubs lending their response boats. If you want a regatta with more participants you would be looking at outsourcing the event to paid professionals. That really would be going against the spirit of the regatta.

This whole issue seems to come about from events at Terrigal where 75% of entries were from the home nation. Why not just restrict the home nation to 40% of entires? There were heaps of sailors at Terrigal who bought a laser just to do this one event. They just joined the class for half a season, and are now off to whence they came. The host nation could then split the entries as they see fit, taking into account length of membership in the class.
 
Here's one:

Schedule a master's Worlds at Kingston, Ontario.


Require a $100 Canadian money deposit to secure a spot and close acceptance of deposits if and only if the entries exceed 1000 boats..

Yeah, I want to be clinging to that wall waiting for 999 other boats to get pulled up the one launch ramp!:p
 
The ILCA is run by unpaid volunteers elected by us who are supported by a handful of paid staff. They (both the volunteers and the staff) seem to do a pretty good job most of the time.

I don't think they are "unpaid". The ILCA has an office where people answer the phone during the week. If everyone is unpaid what do our dues cover?

A class of this size takes management to turn out quartery publications and assist with organizing events, sending out items to new members and so on. Management = $$$.

Honestly, I think they should be paid. They do too much work.
 
I noticed that the qualification criteria are now posted on the ILCA-NA site. The filter they are using is not very restrictive.
 
I noticed that the qualification criteria are now posted on the ILCA-NA site. The filter they are using is not very restrictive.


Can you post a link or something? I couldn't find anything about that subject...


Thanks in advance!!
 
Can you post a link or something? I couldn't find anything about that subject...


Thanks in advance!!

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http://www.ilcana.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=482&Itemid=47

Master Worlds: 2009 will be the first time that the Master World Championship will have a restricted entry process. We do not have any preliminary information with regard to the number of berths that will be allocated to North America (CAN & USA sailors only). The regatta will be held in St. Margaret’s Bay, Nova Scotia in late August, 2009. We will utilize the following system to qualify sailors for our allocated berths:
1)To be eligible you must have:
a) Competed in a Laser World Championship (Master, Senior or Radial) in the past 5 years, or
b) Competed in a major North American Master's event (North Americans, US or Canadian Nationals, MMWE, etc.) AND finished in the top 75% of your fleet.
2)If, after satisfying the above, there are more applicants than spots available then entries will be taken in order of registration.
NOTE: You must notify the ILCA-NA of your qualification under 1)(a) or 1)(b) in order to be ranked before those who fall into category 2) above. Do so by sending an email message to Sherri Campbell at [email protected]This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it prior to the close of the ILCA application period. Include your name, master’s category, and description of most recent qualifying regatta and year of that event.
 
I noticed that the qualification criteria are now posted on the ILCA-NA site. The filter they are using is not very restrictive.

Good to see it is reasonaly open. Does anyone have any idea when initial allocation of numbers from each country will be made?
 

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