Class Politics Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it was

Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Shouldn't the "new rags"
LiningUp.jpg
sails at the worlds be pretty?? Otherwise this would be a great photo.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Shouldn't the "new rags"
LiningUp.jpg
sails at the worlds be pretty?? Otherwise this would be a great photo.

That has to be a doctored picture. If not it is an embarrassment to the class and should cause the entire ILCA representatives to have returned home to be investigating alternatives as we speak.

Ian
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

So you want smooth, wrinkle free sails like the windsurfers and Finns have?

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Maybe wrinkles aren't too slow?

As posted before, in at least one recent class that recently moved to film sails, quite a few top sailors are now very disappointed with their durability. They are not a cure-all.

I run a class that uses mylar sails. They are great for a couple of seasons or more....but growth in the class is hurt by the fact that old hulls come with sails that are falling apart and there are not many (any!) decent second-hand sails around.

Ross, the rig you showed can come with its own problems. The camber induced pocket luff concept (far from new, it was seen in Moths in the '60s) normally means you have to rig with the sail lying down. That's fine in some clubs, but a disaster in others - the two Laser clubs I sail at simply do not have room room for everyone to rig their sails lying down.

One local high-speed class moved to rigs that mean that boats had to be put together lying on their side. They became a minute or so faster - and the class died totally at over a third of the clubs it was sailed at, because they had no room to rig boats that way.

Sure, sails could be better. But this should be waaaaay down on the list of priorities for the Laser class.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Maybe we should just copy a local Etchels idea here in OZ and organise races like the 'Old Etchels' squadron do. Racing instructions specify that no boat or sail under the age of 5 years can be used for racing without handicap penalty. (actually they may not even count them as starters if they show up and choose to sail - not sure)

Make builders supply all sails for official championships and insist they take them away afterwards.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Sure, sails could be better. But this should be waaaaay down on the list of priorities for the Laser class.

I am curious, now. What is on the priority that is much higher than an improved sail?
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

I have no idea what point is being made with this photo. The wrinkles in this photo are from EASING a halyard.
_DSC0063.JPG


EVERY other photo on this thread shows sails with wrinkles coming from STRETCHING if fabric.
EVERY other photo shows sails that are breaking down in use.

So, what other issues are WAY more important than advocating receiving decent product from our monopoly builders?
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

I'd say they are due to easing the cunningham, but the point is simple - getting a piece of cloth or film to change its shape to accomodate different winds, means that sometimes there will be excess cloth or heavily-strained cloth and they will cause wrinkles. These do not slow the boat significantly.

It doesn't seem to me that the Laser wrinkles are from sails breaking down. Certainly the multiple world champions and World Open team sailors I talk to tell me that sails do NOT break down inside a regatta.....or two regattas. One set of wrinkles comes from the mast joint, probably unavoidable. However the others are radiating to the clew, indicating that they are overbend wrinkles which come to play in any craft where the mast is bent beyond the luff curve and have been known by some as "speed wrinkles".

You could get rid of many of those wrinkles easily by straightening the mast and powering on cunno, but that would be slower. We've had the same sort of issues in J/24s, windsurfers.....unfortunately the boards tend to put their pics into galleries that I can't post, but the top board sails are full of wrinkles especially in the head AND they have an easier time as they don't cover the full 0-25+ of a Laser sail.

2007-08-event-photo-galleries


Or go to the UK OK class site and look at the pics of the '07 Worlds; I've only seen the first two but there's masses of wrinkles on display.

You have already written good articles and thoughts on more important things, like getting fleets moving.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

OK We obviously disagree on this one.
My understanding of your position:
You may believe the sails are quite OK and need no improvement.

Fine for you. NOT FINE FOR ME!!!

My position is based on so much information I could type all night. Here is some of it::
The Laser sail is sold to a reliable market where a manufacturer can gear up to build THOUSANDS of IDENTICAL sails.

The current Laser sail is a very simple sail to construct

The materials used to make the Laser sail are relatively inexpensive and the price can be negotiated even lower by guaranteeing a supplier who contracts to deliver cloth the purchase of large quantities of whatever cloth is used to make the sail.

There are other boats in the world whose sails are similar in size (material cost) and few are as simple to build ( labor).

The currently available mass produced Laser Sail is at least as expensive as many sails built one at a time whose material and labor costs are higher than those for the Laser sail.

I believe our mass produced sails should cost less than similar sized one offs or batch built sails...Ours are not less expensive.

Laser sails are currently built in very efficient facilities in countries where the skilled sailmaker does not receive very many dollars for his / her time.

Local sailmakers in the US whose cost of living and pay is much higher can build
one at a time "illegal but better" sails for less than we can buy official mass produced Laser sails that were made by people charging very little for their labor.

Knowing the benefits of mass production and mass distribution:

It certainly seems reasonable to EXPECT the Laser suppliers to be able to deliver sails of a higher quality at a lower price than anyone who purchases materials and makes sail one at a time.

I believe we are currently buying sails that are inferior to those not quite legal sails our local sailmakers easily build for a lower price than we are currently being charged for the official rags.

I am a huge fan of the Laser racing concept. I am a measurer for a reason; protect our ONE DESIGN game.

I do not want to have zillions of different sailmakers making many different "one off" designs for our use.

In fact, there are 15,000 members worlwide of the ILCA who have made it clear they will continue to buy mass produced identical Laser sails.

I will not accept being abused by those to whom I have extended my promise to buy.

I AM going to buy another Laser sail this year. The builders can borrow money based upon their known clientele. I am one of those people upon whom the builder relies.

I do not take kindly to being shat upon as the quid pro quo.

I do my best to hold great regattas...I expect the builder to do its best to supply great toys.

I did my best to run the Laser class and increased the size of the North American Boat buying group while I did that job. I expect the Laser builder to return the favor by building the very best product it can.


Certainly, I am willing to pay a premium price for the quality control expenses necessary to guarantee that all Laser sails will perform equally on the racecourse.

I believe the current "premium" is well past absurd.

I believe the builders have become complacent about quality and greedy about profit and are charging the premium price while failing to provide the premium service.

Last: Reasonableness:

Is it possible to make sails Like Fred wants?


I believe so.


In the early 1990s Haarstick was building Laser sails in North America. The sails were generally competitive FOR ME for as long as two years of MY use. The recent switch from 3.2 oz cloth to the more durable 3.8 oz cloth had virtually removed the need for concern about sail expense.
I finished a North American Interdistrict Championship regatta in the early 1990s in third place using a two year old sail. I know that sail was more durable than ANY sail I have owned since North began constructing Laser sails.


When North began to make Laser sails, the cloth was noticably more plastic coating and less thread. The sails made by North were slightly bigger and the new North's sailed faster than the new Haarsticks.
I had recently purchased a brand new Haarstick when the first North sails showed up at my Easter Regatta. The North Sails were as much as THREE INCHES larger in some directions than the Haarstick sails.

The North Sails were slightly faster upwind and much faster downwind.
The North sails did not last even for one season.

I had to bag my new Haarstick and buy a new North and another and another and at least 20 more since then. I would ahve made it with 9 Haarsticks.

Sail expense was back. Absure incomprehensible sail expense for sails that were NOT AS GOOD as the sails we had been buying for the previous years.
The Laser customer was being screwed.

I complained then and I have never stopped.

WHY THE HELL CAN'T WE HAVE NORTH"S
SIZE AND SHAPE AND WHATEVER CLOTH WAS USED BY HAARSTICK??

Reasonable and simple? Yes!! So what is driving us to accept less?

What is driving the builders to provide less?

Why the hell does ANYONE DEFEND LESS????

Finally. The Haarstick sails were made nearly two decades ago. Technology has advanced. We should have sails today with durability BETTER than the 1990 Haarsticks and shape that sails faster and the sails should be produced my more efecient factories so the cost in todays dollars should be lower..

I will not be content with merely going back to "as good as a couple decades ago."

MY boat repairs are better than those I did in 1990 and I EXPEXT the products I purchase with the money I earn by DOING BETTER THINGS NORE EFFECIENTLY should buy better products form others who are doing theor best to build better products.

MY computer is a hell of a lot better than the one I had in 1990.
MY truck is better than my 1990.

My new Laser sail is not as durable as the Laser sail I purchased in 1990.

What gives??

I expect better.

What gives??

I expect better!!

What gives??

I expect Better!!

What gives??

I expect better!!

Shouldn't you expect better??

If not...Why not??

HECS doesn't and I can live with that but ..The rest of you??

Don't you expect better??

Huh??

Don't you??

Well??

Are we going to ask for better??

Are we going to demand better?

Are we going to seek alternative suoppliers for our toys abnd then leverage the builders to do better??

Or shall we all hold hands, close our eyes and drink the Kool Aide
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

And Finally ...
This has to be my last entry on this thread for a while...

get%20off%20your%20soap%20box.jpg


Summarizing my intolerance for the crappy sails and even the throw away hulls our builders continue to produce:


Today I am working on a J-22 Keel. I am shaping to the exact same specifications I used on the keel that won the most recent Rolex Women's Worlds...

I shaped that championship grade keel 16 years ago. It has been actively raced for 16 seasons and it is still in such fine shape it just won a world championship..


The difference between this keel and the 1992 keel?? Nothing anybody will recognize when it is done.

I am using a more modern filler now and today's keel will have better durability than my 1992 products.


I am sick and tired of gathering dollars by producing high quality durable plastic sailboat products only to spend those dollars on substandard products made by greedy charlatans who deliberatly design and build in unnecessary obsolescence.

I know enough about sailmaking and the available materials to be POSITIVE we could be purchasing a better product and paying less for that product while still leaving plenty of profit for the suppliers in the chain.

Somebody else's turn....

1986-29-71.jpg
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Gov, how do you REALLY feel about this? I feel like your holding back a bit.

*grabs popcorn....
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

A- on that essay for going over on length. I completely agree with you we should at least open up the door to more manufactures so there is competition to make the most durable sail, Instead of just taking whatever north or hyde throws at us cause we have no choice.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

I agree the sail should be the current top priority. I liked the idea someone else suggested that ILCA open it up to a tender process. I would think with a guaranteed market of several thousand sails per year, most sailmakers would be very interested. Esp as Gouv says they are all identical and can be mass produced.
I suppose ILCA should just specify the design and as makers to supply say 10 samples along with the proposed sale price. Then check them out for performance and durablity.
Are we locked in with the current suppliers though, due to ILCA granting them exclusive licenses ?
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Bainbridge stopped producing the 3.2 cloth that used to be used. That is why we have 3.8 sails now, with cloth from North and Contender. Bainbridge didn't have enough demand for the 3.2 cloth. The 3.8 was supposed to be a more common greige good (pre-finished) to ensure supply and keep the costs down. The class however didn't/couldn't/hasn't demanded a narrow enough cloth spec's for what is allowed to be used in the class sail production. As a result you'll see they are using materials at the bottom of the spec barrel...
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

This may be of interest:
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=140114

will be good to see what these sails look like later this year - if they look rubbish then we know it's the cloth/crappy design. If they look good then we know the dodgy looking ones are just badly made.


I really don't think this will make any difference whatsoever. All the measurers/overseers are doing is making the sure the sails are built as close to the middle spec of Laser guidelines.

The problem is NOT the sail coming out of the factory. The problem is the specs the Laser class has within it's scantlings. If we want better sails, harping on North and Hyde will do nothing, change the specs and make North and Hyde build to a better spec.

just my humble opinion. Flame away.

Dan
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

The sail is going to be radically changed if trials work out (ie if it's longer lasting but no faster), according to an extremely good source.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

so they are testing new sails?
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

"They" better keep it secret until, the sail is ready and announced. Loose lips could cause the leaking of information to our mortal enemies the Force Five , Finn, Banshee, and Megabyte classes.

They might use the information about sail development to cut off our wind supply.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

I would think that if they were going to redesign the sail, it would be a good idea to redesign the whole rig (mast/boom) and get it over and done with, kill two birds with one stone
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

and the hull, deck and rigging too!!

mark_robinson.jpg
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

I was trying to be slightly serious.....
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Redesigning the rig and forcing everyone to switch would kill the boat. No one would buy everything again just so they could race. If they went the way they added the new Radial sail, allowing both and then cut off production of the old style, that would be fine. The class will never redesign something to force everyone to buy something new, that would kill the class.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

one would obviously assume that that is the way it would be done, as it has worked before
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

One might...but would anybody else assume along with One?
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

nope

because a person is smart, but a group of people are as dumb, as well, sheep!
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Dang, such a juicy thread, and I missed it.

Am I too late?

There WAS a new sail design passed around. Fred, you even tested it. It had humoungous reinforcing patches, better batten pockets, and was subtly re-cut to eliminate leech flutter and the diagonal misery that emanated from the mast join area.

It was determined that if a better (read:less stretchy) sail material was used, the mast and boom would also have to be re-designed.


NO idea what became of that effort. Tracy?

Cheers Lainie
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

no sail that is use within hours should look like that crapok and other than that most laser sails do suck spend the big bucks and come to erie and ave the local guy make the sail its alot cheaper and they are the best
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

There are some new prototypes being passed around. From a report on last Thursday's races in San Francisco>>>

"One sailor used prototype sail, rumor is that it is available for other sailors to give a test sail for next few thursday night events. "


Perhaps something will soon happen with respect to the Laser sail.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

I would think that if they were going to redesign the sail, it would be a good idea to redesign the whole rig (mast/boom) and get it over and done with, kill two birds with one stone

It would kill more than two birds; it would kill most Laser sailing, around here anyway.

Imagine the typical club racer, a person who is quite happy with what they have, having to fork out about what they may have paid for their boat, just to keep racing in the Laser class. Only a few would do it straight away. Lots of them are average middle class people who are not selfish enough to tell the family "stuff the holidays we were taking; forget about new bikes for the kids - I need the cash 'cause I wanna whole new rig so that I can finish 2 minutes faster".

The good guys, on the other hand, would lose most of the fleet they race against. And the guys they sell their old rigs to, so they can keep buying new ones.

And for what? The "joy" of finishing about 2 minutes faster. For god's sake, if people wanted to finish earlier they would buy Megabytes, or Hobies, or Bladeriders. BUT THEY DON'T!! They choose to sail the Laser.

Having a faster Laser is like having a bigger bonsai tree, it's just not what the class is about, or even very good at. And advocates for a "modern" rig have ignored the practicalities; what happens in the crowded rigging areas of many clubs, when rigs have to be rigged up with sails laid right out and laying down? What happens with fully battened rigs when boats are tied to a dock? (answer- they often fall over). What happens to these sails when they age (answer - they often have a much shorter back-of-the-fleet/cruising/training life and therefore are not available for entry level sailors).

My old club had rigs of this style 40 years ago and they dropped them partly for practical reasons. I've had cambered wide-luffed fully-battened sails for decades and they are great but they have significant problems for Laser-typee boats, which is why the big UK manufacturers who run the world's strongest dinghy market have largely abandoned them. These things are only new and exciting to people in backward areas.

I cannot see how you can get annoyed with people asking you to leave the class alone and go sail another boat if you want to change it. Many thousands of Laser sailors buy Lasers because they want LASERS. The basis of the class is that the boats are identical. Please stop trying to tell the vast majority of people in the class that they are wrong.

What you are doing is just like those people who come into a sailing club and then vote to put a pool in the rigging area and put in a new powerboat marina where the dinghies once sailed. It's like joining a baseball team and trying to get them to play cricket. I dunno, there seems to be something very, very wrong in joining a large group of people who are happy in their shared activity, and trying to make them change the basic rules that the group runs by.

It's even more wrong when there are already groups who do what you want them to do; in this case, the Moths, Finns, OKs, etc. If you do not like what Lasers do, then please stop whining and go find somewhere else to sail.

There seems to be some people who are convinced that those who support the status quo are conservative or do not know about faster gear. This is completely wrong. Guys I've recently fought out races with have sailed things like wing-masted dinghies, full carbon boats, 18 Foot Skiffs, cats, Cherubs, NS 14s. Just about all of these boats are much more sophisticated than just about anything sailed where most US sailors are. And yet these sailors choose to sail Lasers.

These people are not ignorant; they are vastly more familiar with ground-breaking boats; yet they choose to sail Lasers.

Advocates of Moth or windsurfer-type sails should note that windsurfing is now about 8% as popular as it was when in the days when windsurfer sails looked like Laser sails. Mothing is also a lot smaller than it was many years ago. Why follow the model of two areas of sailing that have crashed in popularity?

Okay, go for longer-lasting sails. Yes, let's reduce the excess cost. But for god's sake, no one is forcing anyone to sail Lasers so if you do not like the boat please go somewhere else.

By the way, I notice that most of the pro-change people come from areas where sailing isn't doing all that well. Have you considered that your failure to worry about current sailors and cost is part of the problem?
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

It would kill more than two birds; it would kill most Laser sailing, around here anyway.


xxxxxxx


Okay, go for longer-lasting sails. Yes, let's reduce the excess cost. But for god's sake, no one is forcing anyone to sail Lasers so if you do not like the boat please go somewhere else.

By the way, I notice that most of the pro-change people come from areas where sailing isn't doing all that well. Have you considered that your failure to worry about current sailors and cost is part of the problem?

HECS - one of the best worded and passionate speeches on the subject (did you get the Gouv to help?) which I am sure will be applauded by most on this forum and virtually every Laser racer who doesn't come here (if ever they get to see it). It should really end the debate for improvement - sadly it won't - Rossums will have some theory as to why, if he can't have carbon hydrofoils, he should be allowed a canard strapped to the luff for upwind and powerkites for the downwind!
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

It would kill more than two birds; it would kill most Laser sailing, around here anyway.

Imagine the typical club racer, a person who is quite happy with what they have, having to fork out about what they may have paid for their boat, just to keep racing in the Laser class. Only a few would do it straight away. Lots of them are average middle class people who are not selfish enough to tell the family "stuff the holidays we were taking; forget about new bikes for the kids - I need the cash 'cause I wanna whole new rig so that I can finish 2 minutes faster".

The good guys, on the other hand, would lose most of the fleet they race against. And the guys they sell their old rigs to, so they can keep buying new ones.

And for what? The "joy" of finishing about 2 minutes faster. For god's sake, if people wanted to finish earlier they would buy Megabytes, or Hobies, or Bladeriders. BUT THEY DON'T!! They choose to sail the Laser.

Having a faster Laser is like having a bigger bonsai tree, it's just not what the class is about, or even very good at. And advocates for a "modern" rig have ignored the practicalities; what happens in the crowded rigging areas of many clubs, when rigs have to be rigged up with sails laid right out and laying down? What happens with fully battened rigs when boats are tied to a dock? (answer- they often fall over). What happens to these sails when they age (answer - they often have a much shorter back-of-the-fleet/cruising/training life and therefore are not available for entry level sailors).

My old club had rigs of this style 40 years ago and they dropped them partly for practical reasons. I've had cambered wide-luffed fully-battened sails for decades and they are great but they have significant problems for Laser-typee boats, which is why the big UK manufacturers who run the world's strongest dinghy market have largely abandoned them. These things are only new and exciting to people in backward areas.

I cannot see how you can get annoyed with people asking you to leave the class alone and go sail another boat if you want to change it. Many thousands of Laser sailors buy Lasers because they want LASERS. The basis of the class is that the boats are identical. Please stop trying to tell the vast majority of people in the class that they are wrong.

What you are doing is just like those people who come into a sailing club and then vote to put a pool in the rigging area and put in a new powerboat marina where the dinghies once sailed. It's like joining a baseball team and trying to get them to play cricket. I dunno, there seems to be something very, very wrong in joining a large group of people who are happy in their shared activity, and trying to make them change the basic rules that the group runs by.

It's even more wrong when there are already groups who do what you want them to do; in this case, the Moths, Finns, OKs, etc. If you do not like what Lasers do, then please stop whining and go find somewhere else to sail.

There seems to be some people who are convinced that those who support the status quo are conservative or do not know about faster gear. This is completely wrong. Guys I've recently fought out races with have sailed things like wing-masted dinghies, full carbon boats, 18 Foot Skiffs, cats, Cherubs, NS 14s. Just about all of these boats are much more sophisticated than just about anything sailed where most US sailors are. And yet these sailors choose to sail Lasers.

These people are not ignorant; they are vastly more familiar with ground-breaking boats; yet they choose to sail Lasers.

Advocates of Moth or windsurfer-type sails should note that windsurfing is now about 8% as popular as it was when in the days when windsurfer sails looked like Laser sails. Mothing is also a lot smaller than it was many years ago. Why follow the model of two areas of sailing that have crashed in popularity?

Okay, go for longer-lasting sails. Yes, let's reduce the excess cost. But for god's sake, no one is forcing anyone to sail Lasers so if you do not like the boat please go somewhere else.

By the way, I notice that most of the pro-change people come from areas where sailing isn't doing all that well. Have you considered that your failure to worry about current sailors and cost is part of the problem?

Well said.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

I think all the average laser sailor is asking for is an incremental improvement, I used to sail snipes and was looking at a new Quantum main the other day. Still cloth but much improved.

It's more than time to improve the sail...
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Nothing wrong with private interests developing their own rigs and sails, since the likelihood of them being adopted by the ILCA is nil. What these dream rigs does do is explore what is possible and then what should be done under a brief that limits the changes to solutions to the obvious problems we have now. I'd prefer many people start private dream investigations now, rather than see a "think small" offering pushed through under political influence that has nothing to do with sailing.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

My sincere hope is the suggestions in this thread about wild changes are made in jest. I know mine certainly were.

Currently the Class and builders are working together to come up with some sort of proposal. Test sails are being pased around.

The sailors / consumers need to feel the value exiasts or they will not happily purchase new sails. The Laser sails as sold are unacceptable products that we only buy because there are no alternatives available.

My sincere hope is the buiilders and association will develop a new sails whose performance is as close to identical to the current sail as possible while making sails that last for years and years and years and look womnderful every day during those years and years and years.

At the very least, I want an honest comeback next time someone says, "I refuse to buy a new Laser sail. The things flutter on day one and stretch out of shape in the first puff of wind they encounter."

I want to be able to reply, "The builders finally solved the sail problem. The sails are durable. The sails look great. The sails are mass produced and sold for a very low price compared to the one off sails sold for other one design classes."

I really don't think my goal is unreasonable.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

There has been discussion on SA about the sail below, which supposedly would cost about $600-700 including carbon battens.

index.php

index.php


I know that this sail is obviously a big step forward from the conventional sail, but what do people think about it?

I think I'd rather have a better designed conventional sail as defined by gouvernail, but this sail would be fun for blasting around.
 

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