Class Politics Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it was

gouvernail

Super Opinionated and Always Correct
Look at this garbage!!!

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Re: 4 Year Old Sails For US Trials??

i don't get your point. if all the competitors start with the same sail, regardless of age, mfg, style, it's a level field. right?
 
Re: 4 Year Old Sails For US Trials??

Guessing, but I think the point is why do we accept the status quo as far as the sail, material etc.. These are brand new sails that look pretty bad - yes, they all look equally bad so it's level, but we could also have a level field with sails that look/perform better and last longer.
 
Sailcloth too soft and stretchy for women's undies?

Guessing, but I think the point is why do we accept the status quo as far as the sail, material etc.. These are brand new sails that look pretty bad - yes, they all look equally bad so it's level, but we could also have a level field with sails that look/perform better and last longer.


At least one person gets it.

The photo says the thousand words.

The folks who make Laser sails have guys like Stick so conditioned to shoddy garbage, they can send sails that wrinkle and stretch to the US Olympic Trials and be defended for making equal garbage.

Look at those rags. What was the material used in construction?

Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it was too soft and stretchy to make women's undies?

If Laser sailors had any self esteem what so ever, they would form a Laser Class Association.
Standards of materials, shape, size, and durabliltiy would be written by the Laser Class Association for sails used in the game of Laser sailing. .

Once instituted, no supplier would EVER be able to EVER sell another Laser Class Approved sail like those in the photo without losing the rights to EVER supply another "class approved" sail.

LOOK AT THOSE WRINKLES!!
Those sails wre used by the very best sailors for one regatta. Those best sailors needed to go fast. There is no way any of the sails in the pictures were abused by incompetent sailors. Those sails were babied by our very most talented sailors....
and ruined in a week!

WHAT WILL SAILS SIMILAR TO THOSE RAGS LOOK LIKE IN ONE YEAR??

Our supplier has already told us ALL the sails are produced inside the same standards.

Certainly our supplier did not select the very worst trash that still meets the standards and send the worst to the US Olympic Trials.

My guess? The supplier may have carefully inspected these rags and found them to be the best available.

In North America we spent a MILLION DOLLARS this year for 1200 SAILS our builders tell us were built with the same set of quality control standards as those wrinkly embarassments to the world of modern technology.

favorite excuses:

1. They are the only legal sails for Laser racing.

2. The game would die if we allowed anybody to make any sail he wishes and sell it to us.


I don't know. Maybe Laser sailing would die if we all demanded a quality durable product.

Maybe we better not rock the boat or stir the pot. Laser sailing is the world's most successful singlehanded sailing game.

I do not believe anybody has a valid count of the following group.

How many people simply refuse to spend $600 on a piece of crap sail and therefore quit or never bother to join a fleet whose rules require the use of substandard equipment?

How many people looked at that Laser Trials photo and said, "THERE is the PRECISE reason I will not buy a new Laser sail."?

Why do we self impose these restrictions upon ourselves???

Is this the best we are willing to have?

I am so damn programmed, I WILL be buying another new Laser sail this winter. I am that insane.

In fact, I suspect I just might end up with a sail that was not GOOD ENOUGH for the US Trials and simply shipped to a small dealer in a desert state..

What about you people with brains?? What is your excuse?

WHY?????
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Nice scream Gouv, but what can be done?

Since this was a US event, the appropriate officials from the North American Region should consider the issue. They could follow up by registering a complaint with either Vanguard or North. Or take the issue to the ILCA (in England).

By gently ;) pointing out that substitutes exist (Hyde), some teeth could be put into addressing the problem. Moreover, it can be pointed out that such sails are NOT good advertising for North (or the Class).

PS: I assume that the sails used at the trials were from North, not Hyde.

PS #2: I was hoping to buy a new North sail this winter, but now I am reluctant to do so

PS #3: Clearly an issue for Ross to pick up once he gets elected :) ....
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

It is interesting how taking a picture of a Laser sail in breeze freezes and displays all of the sail's flaws. Here is a (not so good) picture taken at the Laser PCC's in Santa Cruz in 1996... (can it really have been more than ten years ago?!?!?) and at least one of these sails is a Hyde sail!
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A lot of the "problem" with the sail results from the leech fluttering and the ripples in the sail get captured in the photograph. As a sailor, we tend to see the leech flutter and not really notice the rest of it. So... the sail might actually look ok to us on the boat.

Here is a picture from the Master Worlds in Roses taken on a light air day. The Canadian sail is a North, I'm pretty sure...

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Re: Sailcloth too soft and stretchy for women's undies?

LOOK AT THOSE WRINKLES!!

Are you mainly referring to the diagonal wrinkles?

Or those resulting from the leech flutter?

Or those from having to use too much cunningham to fix the diagonal wrinkles?

Or??
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

OK ....I love starting on line brawls as much as anybody but, Bradley helped fire the flames by editing the title for this thread.

And I approve!!

The sails in the photo I posted are just Laser sails as Laser sails look.

If you take a similar photo of a group of Thistles, Lightnings, Snipes, or any other one design boat where capitalistic competition is allowed among suppliers, the sails on boats sailed by the top competitors will not look wrinkled and stretched .

Laser sails could be made to look pretty.

I don't even care if the sails would all be less effective if the leeches didn't flutter and the things looked smooth and like a wing should look.

In any other class, All I need to know about setting a sail is, "Make it look pretty." A pretty sail generally has better wind flow than an ugly wrinkled sail and the sailmakers carefully design the sails so we can adjust the draft for various conditions by simply REMOVING the wrinkles caused by the wind, mast bend and control lines.

If I hung up a new sail from ANY sailmaker and it set up as crappy as a brand new Laser sail, I would take it back to the sailmaker immediately. IN FACT, I would do my best not to let ANYBODY else see the sail before I gave the sailmaker the opportunity to see his HUGE mistake.
The fact is. NOBODY in the sai making business builds anything remotely as horribly wrinkled, fluttering and shortlived as a Laser sail except..The OFFICIAL APPROVED Laser sail suppliers.

Only in Lasers .

We lemmings tolerate it.

I tolerate it.

I am about to purchase another damn new stretchy ugly temporary sail.

We should ORGANIZE and do something about it.

Currently Laser sailors are NOT organized.

Of the 80,000 Laser owners in North America we have a few people worrying about oganizational pedanticies and a builder supported advertiser supplemented professional scheduling and publications team.

Nobody involved in the NA Laser Class Organizatrion DARES tro say ANYTHING which could be taken as unsupportive by our builder.

I know why. When I was the NA Secretary I shut my pie hole and took the annual $30,000 from Vanguard and used it to spread the word about Laser sailing. I sold out. I justified it with some self centered bullcrap about the general good of the game.

I finally broke down and let my morals surface and it cost me my job as secretary.
When I griped about another new totally incompatible drain plug, I was accused of "hijacking the newsletter" and Vanguard withheld $15,000 in advertising and new boat membership fees until the day after I was gone from the secretary job.

My successors know the lesson well. Shut up. Be a lemming. Receive $$$. In fact my successors made certain they stayed in good favor with Vanguard by refusing to pay any of the $20,000 odd funds I was still owed under the class' management contract with me.
I understand, The NA Class as we know it would die without Vanguard's support.
( Of course, that might force the sailors wo actually form a class of their own but I rant and digress)

refocusing:

The NA Laser Class is simply an extension of our builder's advertising department.

There is no owner driven and controlled consumer advocacy organization and none of us complacent lazy bums is about to start one.


I love to race singlehanded sailboats and the best available game is played in Lasers.


So I will buy another piece of crap this winter and play with it for a few weeks...Then buy another one when I want to play more.

Spending a few hundred bucks beats spending thousands to maybe or maybe not do something about it.

Meanwhile...
Once in a while I cannot resist pointing out to myself and others how damn easy it is to keep us pigs face down in the feed trough.

Love and kisses to ya all. I need to get back to work
 
Re: Sailcloth too soft and stretchy for women's undies?

Are you mainly referring to the diagonal wrinkles?

Or those resulting from the leech flutter?

Or those from having to use too much cunningham to fix the diagonal wrinkles?

Or??
NO to all of the above!!!
Something pulled toward the back corner of the sail with a force which exceeded the toleration of the material. The material has stretched and big wrinkles are radiating from the clew.
Decent sails have clew patches designed to prevent such stretching and generally stretch marks like the ones shown do not show up for years...not hours.

Look again>>>
07_19157USOLYMPICTRIALSEAST.jpg
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Silly me, I thought this was going to be an incredibly timely, and therefore really useful, thread on what might be done to improve the durability of a Laser sail without compromising its current performance. Timely because it turns out that in Roses the ILCA Technical and Measurement Committee met with the builders where a major topic was just this (and, interestingly, it may be that we have arrived at a moment in time - due to a number of factors - where something might actually get done about it). Useful because maybe there was something overlooked in the brainstorming of things that could be done to make a more durable sail which we could try to add to the list.

Sorry to have stumbled into a brawl.

Carry on!
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Any chance to list what was already brainstormed ? Just so we don't spend a lot of time throwing out ideas that are already on the table.
 
Re: Sailcloth too soft and stretchy for women's undies?

NO to all of the above!!!
Something pulled toward the back corner of the sail with a force which exceeded the toleration of the material. The material has stretched and big wrinkles are radiating from the clew.
Decent sails have clew patches designed to prevent such stretching and generally stretch marks like the ones shown do not show up for years...not hours.

Look again>>>
07_19157USOLYMPICTRIALSEAST.jpg


Nobody is arguing that there are not problems with the current sails, see my previous post.

But... we all know that those large diagonal wrinkles are the result of a single size sleeve on the sail interacting with the mast collar and then the smaller outer diameter top mast. And if the bend characteristics of the top mast are not matched to the lower it can be made even worse. Look in that picture closely and you can see a discontinuity at the mast joint.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Any chance to list what was already brainstormed ? Just so we don't spend a lot of time throwing out ideas that are already on the table.

From my memory, ideas on the table included better patches at each of the corners, using a better adhesive for gluing the seems together before sewing, investigating a leech cord, investigating the material specs, reinforcing the batten pockets, etc.

The goal is to improve the durability of the sail without changing its performance. This is not a Laser 2050 project, this is what can be done to improve the problems everyone recognizes with the current sails.

Several of the ideas are leftover from the 1998 project to do the same (e.g. the leech cord). I don't know why nothing was done back then...
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Well, we can always count on Fred to get a lively discussion going :) thanks Fred!

If you put aside strong feelings about the state of affairs and look objectively, truthfully we all have gripes about different aspects of the manufacture of the Laser. Let's not even start talking (again) about the cheezy plastic blocks that cost more than a Harken ball bearing equivalent.

Certainly the Laser sail is an area where much improvement could be made. If in fact a dialog has started towards that end it should be encouraged. It should also be an open process that can be followed and commented on by the class members. Technology has advanced a long ways since that sail was developed, and the class should be pushing the sailmakers for an improved product.

Tracey, can you provide any additional details as to what transpired at the Worlds with regards to this topic?

thanks, Mike S
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

It is interesting how taking a picture of a Laser sail in breeze freezes and displays all of the sail's flaws. Here is a (not so good) picture taken at the Laser PCC's in Santa Cruz in 1996... (can it really have been more than ten years ago?!?!?) and at least one of these sails is a Hyde sail!
attachment.php


A lot of the "problem" with the sail results from the leech fluttering and the ripples in the sail get captured in the photograph. As a sailor, we tend to see the leech flutter and not really notice the rest of it. So... the sail might actually look ok to us on the boat.

Here is a picture from the Master Worlds in Roses taken on a light air day. The Canadian sail is a North, I'm pretty sure...

attachment.php

Tracy, That's me in 187740 and it's actually a Hyde sail I'm using (first time I've used a Hyde). From what I understand, Hyde uses Contender cloth which (IMHO) is superior (firmer) to North's in-house cloth. This is obvious in a side by side "feel" comparison. Unless both companies start using the same cloth, I will only buy Hyde from now on.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Gouvernail states in his later posts, I think, that these sails were within standards as prescribed by ILCA. From his first post, I got the impression that these sails were due to faulty quality control at the North loft in Sri Lanka. It's important for this discussion (brawl :eek:) to be sure about what we are writing about. Please clarify.

I admit to know very little about the art/science/technology of sailmaking. Therefore, I am dependent upon the knowledge of Gouvernail, SFBayLaser and others, in helping me, and presumably other less informed souls, to make up our minds about what course of action to take.

In summary, are these sad looking sails due to poor quality control at North or are they within ILCA standards?
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

I was astonished as to how quickly and how bad the sails looked at the end of the Trials from one sailing with them, not to mention the end of the first day. The change in the whole leech was amazing to see over the period of 9 consecutive days of racing.

Yes, they were North built.

The upper leach was the first to dump off, then the mid and lower leech. I wish I could have taken a photo from on the boat.

Come to think of it, everyone in the qualifier was complaining they just ruined their new sails after one day of sailing in breeze.

The cloth spec's need to be addressed!

I hope they give out a second new sail, with these boats...
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Once again, Tracy, I'm sorry I have once again made life more difficult for you..

If you did a search on this forum you would find a long list of those apologies...

I meant every one of them.


Briefly.

having said it before...

I think the Laser and its rigging and sails could be made much more durable and for a lower price if we would accept a one time step up improvement in the equipment.

We have done this many times before. T
The game evolved from wood to fiberglass boards.
The game evolved from fiberglass to foam boards.
The game evolved from 3.2 sails to 3.8 sails
The game evolved from durable Haarstick sails to the larger North Sails
The game evolved from having metal gudgeons to plastic gudgeons.

The game has survived becuase the changes were good for the game.

In each case the improvements made the old equipment obsolete.

It is way past time for new sails built to last and last and last.

So what if the old sails are obsolete?? We can simply place our old sails on the shelf next to our old ones that look like this>>>
80589%20whumping%20Ian%20L.jpg
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

There is no reason the Contender Dacron being used right now can't be made to better handle the loads of Laser sails. As has been mentioned previously in the thread, a head patch and clew patch would go a long way toward eliminating the stretch factor. It also wouldn't be very tough to make a "harder" leech to eliminate the flutter. You could do this with a leach cord but it could distort the desired sailing shape of the leach if pulled.

A good example to look at for head and clew patches to distribute high loads better would be in the MC Scow sail (yes I realize they are a stayed boat). That class has a very bendy mast and when looked at from behind the profile of the MC and Laser are very similar. Perhaps some building techniques could be taken from there.

I have to agree with Gouvernail on this whole heartedly. I raced on sunday with a sail that was used in 3 regattas last year and hasn't been used since. It was a complete disgrace, had it not been the only sail I had available at the time, I would not have put it up. The leach fluttered so hard it was deafening, I had to crank on the cunningham just to pull out the wrinkles at the luff and the draft was still way back. It was a truly nauseating experience to sail with something that looked like that.

Dan
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

I would be very interested to hear more about what the technical people are considering. Whilst I am very keen on Lasers remaining a strict one-design, sail do wear out and need replacing. Thus and new (even better) sail would probably have an overlap old/new in same fleets for a relatively short time. Sails wear out quicker than e.g. Vangs or Cunninghams. I thus think it an aspect that could be changed without too much disruption to the one-design principal.

Ian
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

From my memory, ideas on the table included better patches at each of the corners, using a better adhesive for gluing the seems together before sewing, investigating a leech cord, investigating the material specs, reinforcing the batten pockets, etc.

The goal is to improve the durability of the sail without changing its performance. This is not a Laser 2050 project, this is what can be done to improve the problems everyone recognizes with the current sails.

Several of the ideas are leftover from the 1998 project to do the same (e.g. the leech cord). I don't know why nothing was done back then...

Those changes sound reasonable - better patches and looking at/moving the specs would make for a longer lasting sail - the performance may change slightly.

My guess is if they spent some time working on panel alignment and (possibly a lower stretch window material) in the lower sections, they could clean up the problems you see just aft of the window with stretch and wrinkles.. Tradeoff might be more cloth wastage.

Forcing both sailmakers to use a single sailcloth supplier is an interesting proposal - was the reason it never happened before because the ILCA didn't want to run into a situation where the cloth supplier decided to stop weaving that style (or jacked up his prices since he was the sole supplier ?)
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Reading through this thread brings lots of questions to mind, that would be helpful if someone was able to answer for those like me who are less knowledgeable in these matters:

In no particular order then:

What is it that causes the current 3.8oz sail to be not very durable? Is it that we use extreme rig controls, especially the cunningham to depower the sail, and has this has got worse over the 21 years since the 3.8 was introduced? I remember that when the 3.8oz came out, the top sailors would set up their boats for hours on shore with a new sail with the cunnningham on full to stretch it and make easier to adjust.

Or are you saying that the sailcloth now used for the 3.8oz sail is less durable than that used when it was introduced in 1986 to replace the 3.2oz sail?

I thought that the cloth specifications for Laser sails were supposed to be very tight, much tighter than used in most other sails. One of the reasons given for the change to 3.8oz sails was that only Lasers used 3.2oz cloth and were being asked to take it whether or not it was in spec. Is this a case of "deja vu"?

Would a heavier cloth solve these problems or does the whole sail need a recut / redesign so that it looks good first time up and stays that way for a reasonable length of time.

What is/would be considered to be an acceptable life for a sail?

How long do the alternative non-legal sails such as those from Intensity, Rooster etc that are made from slightly heavier cloth last, compared to a legal sail? (Ignoring pricing here). Do those sails look any better? From other threads about Intensity sails, they don't seem to have any performance advantage.

If a heavier cloth was used, would that increase the ideal weight of the sailor as it would be harder to depower, as with the change from 3.2 to 3.8?

How does a leech cord work? Is it adjustable whilst sailing? Would it increase the cost of the sail!!? How would it improve the durability of the sail.

What was the 1998 project about and how come these things never seem to be discussed in either official ILCA publications like Laser World or get mentioned in the UK? (As an aside for example, but I don't think there has been any mention of the new foils available in Australia either nor much (anything?) about carbon top sections since the vote a number of years ago rejected them! You just have to read the Laser Forum to find out about these things!)

Tracy mentioned matching the top section to the bottom, but isn't it time we got a better method of joining the two, rather than the plastic collar that breaks at the rivet and that we are now supposed to be voting in a new rule to allow taping the top section just so the rivet stays at the back.

www.laserinternational.org/rules2007/

It looks like Laser (PSE) already make Laser sails for greater durability for holiday companies with reinforced batten pockets and possibly other refinements that could help the longetivity of the sail. The sail patch looks to say "Laser 3.8 New Numbers" but I wouldn't like to swear to it. Is there anybody out there who has been to a Sunsail Club and is sufficiently knowledgeable to say whether these sails offer any difference in life of the sail or performance.

Finally, perhaps I need to look more closely, but what is wrong with the coloured sail in Gouvernail's picture?

Any chance of a return of coloured sails? The four Worlds that used them were certainly the most photogenic, but asking here the sailors that attended some of those, were there any complaints about the use of coloured rather than white sails (ARoy and Gouvernail)?
 

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Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

In response to a couple of your Q's:

Leech cord would not be adjustable while sailing, although I imagine the cleat could be led along the foot somewhere so it could be adjusted, say, before or between races. It would certainly add some cost.

I sailed in the 79, 80, 82, 83 Worlds, and each one used a colored sail (or a few panels). I don't recall if the sails were any different to the standard, and I don't think anyone worried about it since we all had the same thing.

You mention the Aussie blades. I believe this is an issue. A few of us were looking them over at the recent Masters Worlds, and we invited the ILCA Chief Measurer over to explain how they can be legal. They are made with some kind of hot poured liquid/curing process, and are undoubtably stiffer than the standard blades (see: http://www.lasersailing.com.au/race_parts.html#). The trailing edges of these babies are unlikely to warp like we see with the white blades. The measurer told us they have almost completed testing of these Aussie blades (somewhere in the UK). What is curious is how they've been deemed legal before completion of testing/examination.

Strange things do indeed take place in this class. It takes a year of meetings and voting to allow simple things like the centreboard shock cord to be wrapped around the bow, or to allow use of duct tape to hold down the bailer pin, yet people show up at a Masters Worlds with high tech blades (?).
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

I don't think opening up the Laser to class to multiple sail vendors would be the death of one design. In fact, it's about the only class I can think of with such a restrictive rule (though I'm sure there are others). Doesn't even the Flying Scot class have multiple vendors?
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Strange things do indeed take place in this class. It takes a year of meetings and voting to allow simple things like the centreboard shock cord to be wrapped around the bow, or to allow use of duct tape to hold down the bailer pin, yet people show up at a Masters Worlds with high tech blades (?).


Moving a shock cord's location does not provide profit for any builders.

The builders do have an obligation to their families and investors to make an effort to be prosperous.

my experieces at the Laser worlds are the same as Andy's except for my number of appearances and location in the fleet. Everybody is smart enough to know equal is equal. Also mostly all the competitors are happy to be there and not in a mood to whine and complain.

My complaint about the current laser sails is not related to equality.


My complaint relates to teh entire definition of what is legal.

Currently, our class rules and the builder manual describe a sail that is made from materials which wewre readily available and CHEAP when the specs were written.

Today the specs require sailmakers to use obsolete materials and to assemble those materials in an archiac fashion.

Translation> WE require them to buy expensive garbage and assemble it stupidly.

The builders control the design and control the contracts with sailmakers.

Unless we figure out a way to convince the builders ir they decide themselves it would be more profitable to supply modern sails...They cannot consider it. They will not do it.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

For the sail situation to change who needs to do what ?

Do we just continue to post dissatisfaction until somebody in some committee picks up the idea (which might be happening already but can we speed it up) ? Does somebody (class member rather than on a committee) get a load of signatures for a rule change ? Does somebody have to persuade a reputable sailmaker to come up with a proposal to the class ?, etc.

The issue regularly comes up and generally there is a reasonable agreement that things could be changed for the better. Maybe if there were something people could actually do to progress this.

Ian
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Well there you have it.

The Gov hit the nail on the head

The cloth specs, as well as design and construction requirements needs to be redesigned.

Put a committee together, a couple of class member sail makers, as well as some designers from Hyde/North, and come up with something that would work, to allow durability and reasonable cost.

$600 for a tiny sail that is mass produced, sold with virtually no marketing cost, and that last only a few races, is completely outrageous.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Do we just continue to post dissatisfaction until somebody in some committee picks up the idea (which might be happening already but can we speed it up) ? Does somebody (class member rather than on a committee) get a load of signatures for a rule change ? Does somebody have to persuade a reputable sailmaker to come up with a proposal to the class ?, etc.
could we start a thread and make it like a petition to change the sail and get as many signatures as possible on the thread. the first post would be what the petition is for (redesigning the sail) and then below that who ever is for it just types their name and email address (signature).
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

How about Hyde/North just copy the Intensity sail...

Or, the class could sell Intensity Sails, red royalty buttons for $400 and the class would make some money and we could have racing sails that have a decent amount of resin in them and sails that last more than one day.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

could we start a thread and make it like a petition to change the sail and get as many signatures as possible on the thread. the first post would be what the petition is for (redesigning the sail) and then below that who ever is for it just types their name and email address (signature).
The North American Region Chairman (Tracy Usher, aka SFBayLaser) posted that ILCA already has this issue on the agenda. Therefore, we need his input whether an E-mail writing campaign will serve any purpose (other than venting frustrations). ILCA has a process (whether we like it or not) that is slow, but changes have taken place from time to time. For instance, the radials went from Mark V to Mark VI sails a few years ago. Therefore, change does happen. That was before my time as a Laser sailor, but maybe others can fill in some detail(s).

BTW, Tracy also serves as the Technical and Measurement Chair on the World Council.
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

The North American Region Chairman (Tracy Usher, aka SFBayLaser) posted that ILCA already has this issue on the agenda. Therefore, we need his input whether an E-mail writing campaign will serve any purpose (other than venting frustrations). ILCA has a process (whether we like it or not) that is slow, but changes have taken place from time to time. For instance, the radials went from Mark V to Mark VI sails a few years ago. Therefore, change does happen. That was before my time as a Laser sailor, but maybe others can fill in some detail(s).

BTW, Tracy also serves as the Technical and Measurement Chair on the World Council.


OK so it's on the agenda to be discussed amongst the world council, obviously the "powers that be" either see or sense a problem and are trying to address the situation.

When will be that we (the Laser class) are made aware/asked for input regarding any possible change? I'm sure this process is going to be a slow one just like it was getting the 2001 upgrades done. What was that a 3 year process?
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

Is it the case that; when a committee who decide to investigate something they do it "because it seems like a good idea". Quite valid reason to look into something, see if there could be improvements, implications of change, etc.. It can all be a bit like an academic exercise with little pressure to report or progress changes with any urgency or time-scales. (Not being critical here but sometimes I wonder if I should decorate the spare bedroom, costs, implications, etc. and I can reflect on the decision for many months or even years if I try hard enough). Would the committee investigating be a bit more motivated or more receptive to the concept of change if they felt there was a strong feeling within the class that it would be ready for or even keen on having a vote on a change.


One Idea
No idea if its ever been done but when the class (International Class that is) has a vote on a change (i.e. the adopt it or reject it vote), might it be an idea to also allow a "how do you feel about ..." vote as well. Sort of allow the various committees to get a decent appreciation for how the class feels about issues. Thus, with the current vote maybe a "How do you feel about carbon masts for the Radial ? and "How do you feel about broadening the options for Laser sails ?" Maybe with options being "Sounds very interesting", "Depends on what is proposed" and "What is available is fine". Nothing binding but it would allow committees to recognise if they were investigating a complete non-starter or something people really wanted a.s.a.p.


Just a thought
Ian
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

I dont want to start anymore contoversy, but why not have local (North American) chapters that vote independently? We dont all sail in International events, and even the ones that do, how frequently? My question is basically, why cant we vote for ourselves?
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

we invited the ILCA Chief Measurer over to explain how they can be legal.

SFLaser, as the technical measurer dude and the NA class head mukety muck, please explain how NON LEGAL blade are allowed and more importantly, how the laser class whihch I pay for, has spent time and effort with new blade, while ignoring the sail issue - which goes back a long way - you can see post on this site alone back in 2004!!!

This does somewhat leave me shaking my head and asking myself - why all the time and effort on a new blade (I know the current ones are not awesome - but unless you drop it or leave it in a hot car, they are ok) whilst pretty much ignoring the members of the class about the sail quality issue.

I don't see too many threads about blades, but I see a hell of a lot about the sail quality issue.

frustrating!

Matt
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

The North American Region Chairman (Tracy Usher, aka SFBayLaser) posted that ILCA already has this issue on the agenda. Therefore, we need his input whether an E-mail writing campaign will serve any purpose (other than venting frustrations). ILCA has a process (whether we like it or not) that is slow, but changes have taken place from time to time. For instance, the radials went from Mark V to Mark VI sails a few years ago. Therefore, change does happen. That was before my time as a Laser sailor, but maybe others can fill in some detail(s).

BTW, Tracy also serves as the Technical and Measurement Chair on the World Council.

As I said before, what is "on the agenda" right now is to look at what could be done to make the sail more durable while not changing its performance characteristics. So, same sail but, hopefully, with a longer competitive lifetime (and, I'm sure, with the side benefit of looking much prettier in the pictures). If people are happy with that then, no, I don't think you need to do an email campaign of support. That message has already been communicated.

On the other hand, if what people are asking for is a new sail design, then that is a different kettle of fish. First, of course, you need to decide what you mean by "new sail"... and if you are designing a new sail then probably you also want a new rig and are thinking of something like in 49208's post... etc., etc. Then you need to rally the membership to send that message up to ILCA that this is what it wants.

Personally, I think you will find that the bulk of the membership wants to see the same sail made more durable (changing the game as little as possible right now) or at least this is what has been communicated to ILCA so far. I don't think you will find much support for a new sail design at the current time (with all due respect to certain TLF posters).
 
Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

SFLaser, as the technical measurer dude and the NA class head mukety muck, please explain how NON LEGAL blade are allowed and more importantly, how the laser class whihch I pay for, has spent time and effort with new blade, while ignoring the sail issue - which goes back a long way - you can see post on this site alone back in 2004!!!

This does somewhat leave me shaking my head and asking myself - why all the time and effort on a new blade (I know the current ones are not awesome - but unless you drop it or leave it in a hot car, they are ok) whilst pretty much ignoring the members of the class about the sail quality issue.

I don't see too many threads about blades, but I see a hell of a lot about the sail quality issue.

frustrating!

Matt


Blades are "builder supplied" and the Laser Construction Manual, apparently, has always allowed the "GRP" process to be used along with the "PU" process for constructing them. If the builder can demonstrate that his "GRP" foils are reproducing the dimensions (including foil shape) AND characteristics (e.g. bend) AND gets all the parties to sign off (builders, Bruce Kirby, ILCA, ISAF, etc.), then they are "legal".

The GRP foils have actually been floating around for quite some time now with the first versions appearing, as I remember, back in 2003. PSA took on this project because there was concern that there was only one supplier of blades (Crompton) and there was a feeling of genuine need for a second supplier in the event "something happened" to the single source (a good reason to have two sail suppliers too!). And... if you search I think you can find several threads on them here at TLF.
 

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