Class Politics Are Intensity Sails Faster? Etc.

Re: Are Intensity Sails Faster?

Unfortunately it would not necessarily have a good effect. In the UK you buy your sails direct from PSE (the builder) and they are a lot more expensive than in the US. Thus, eliminate one set of delivery and profit charges and the price to the customer goes up.

I think it is an issue of the modern economy - no longer "a fair product for a fair price" but as much profit as possible. Shareholders/owners often clamour for ever increasing profits and they have to come from somewhere.

Ian

I presume that when you say "direct from PSE" you mean from www.lasersailing.com, which is the "Laser Centre" in Northhampton. My understanding is that this is a retail outlet owned by PSE. So, I'd expect all their prices to be equal to the dealers... and in any case if they are to support their dealers in such a small geographical area it would not make a lot of sense to undercut them.

When Vanguard took over Sunfish/Laser they also tried this, for example the "Vanguard Superstore" in Orange County. I don't know for sure, but I think they decided this wasn't working for them and got out of it. Probably someone from SoCal (who, hopefully, is still in their home!) can let us know...
 
Re: Are Intensity Sails Faster?

If the class allows the builders to abuse the class members as you describe, then perhaps the class should start considering other arrangements.

I couldn't agree more. We currently get a sail that can't last one day in breeze and have no options about it.

It's not a production cost issue to make a better sail for the current selling price point. It's just a matter of getting enough members to demand a sail for $600 that isn't junk.

If the current suppliers aren't willing to change the status quo, we should vote to use a new production/royality/distribution model for Sails.
 
Re: Are Intensity Sails Faster?

I couldn't agree more. We currently get a sail that can't last one day in breeze and have no options about it.

It's not a production cost issue to make a better sail for the current selling price point. It's just a matter of getting enough members to demand a sail for $600 that isn't junk.

If the current suppliers aren't willing to change the status quo, we should vote to use a new production/royality/distribution model for Sails.


What he said!

But can our class pass rules changes that might reduce the income of the suppliers?

That remains to be seen.
 
Re: Are Intensity Sails Faster?

I presume that when you say "direct from PSE" you mean from www.lasersailing.com, which is the "Laser Centre" in Northhampton. My understanding is that this is a retail outlet owned by PSE. So, I'd expect all their prices to be equal to the dealers... and in any case if they are to support their dealers in such a small geographical area it would not make a lot of sense to undercut them.

Yes, I did mean the Northampton www.lasersailing.com. As I understand things in the UK local chandlers do not stock things like sails. The will often stock the smaller parts (blocks and things like the clew sleeve, etc.), but not stuff like sails, masts, etc. Thus, for such products there is not the same dealer network as probably exists in the US and thus not the same competitive aspect. My (limited) experience anyway. With other dinghy classes I've sailed you tend to get the sails direct from the sailmaker.

I'm not complaining about the price, etc. just pointing out that these days the "fair price for a fair product" ethic has long ago left much of business and these days it is to "extract as much money from the customer as possible". Thus, the various companies will tend to charge as much as they can get away with - reasonable margins for their work and profit are not the consideration they used to be.

Ian
 
Re: Are Intensity Sails Faster?

Just to show my ignorance of how the class operates; is there any reason why the class cannot vote and allow e.g. Bogus Sails Inc to make and sell sails for the Laser (e.g. direct) and that as they are "Class Approved" they would be fully legal. i.e. to bypass the builder, etc.

I admit it might not be a "good idea" as (if it could be done) it would undoubtedly annoy builder, retailers, North/Hyde, etc. but just the thread that they could do it might make the supply chain think again and at least try to keep people a bit happier as far as the pricing issue goes.

Ian
 
Re: Are Intensity Sails Faster?

Yes, I did mean the Northampton www.lasersailing.com. As I understand things in the UK local chandlers do not stock things like sails. The will often stock the smaller parts (blocks and things like the clew sleeve, etc.), but not stuff like sails, masts, etc. Thus, for such products there is not the same dealer network as probably exists in the US and thus not the same competitive aspect. My (limited) experience anyway. With other dinghy classes I've sailed you tend to get the sails direct from the sailmaker.


Ian

Only Vanguard dealers sell legal sails in North America, as well. As for the dealer network, I think the nature of that is going to change here. When we bought the Bahia at Annapolis, I spoke to the PSE rep and asked him how things were going to change in America. For one thing, he said that distribution would change. There will no longer be sales districts in which dealers can't work out of. I'll let you draw your own conclusions. He also said that production would change and that we would get better boats.
 
Re: Are Intensity Sails Faster?

Since the suppliers are rather powerful in the class association, it is unlikely that this discussion is going to change anything.
 
Re: Are Intensity Sails Faster?

Just to show my ignorance of how the class operates; is there any reason why the class cannot vote and allow e.g. Bogus Sails Inc to make and sell sails for the Laser (e.g. direct) and that as they are "Class Approved" they would be fully legal. i.e. to bypass the builder, etc.

I admit it might not be a "good idea" as (if it could be done) it would undoubtedly annoy builder, retailers, North/Hyde, etc. but just the thread that they could do it might make the supply chain think again and at least try to keep people a bit happier as far as the pricing issue goes.

Ian

There are four parties that have a say in what happens: the class (i.e. its members), the builders, Bruce Kirby and, finally, ISAF (though it would be hard for ISAF to go against something the other three agreed to).

It would be a hurdle to get the builders and Bruce Kirby to agree to a change in the Fundamental Rule. Clearly it would reduce income to the builders, an obvious hurdle in getting them to sign off, but, more importantly, it would also be a complete paradigm shift with respect to the Laser philosophy. Still, if the class membership, worldwide, were solidly behind it then I would think it would be hard for the builders and/or Bruce Kirby to reject it. Note that "solidly" means a very significant fraction of the membership would have to nearly universally support it (and remember that current rules votes barely get 5% response, even with, typically, 6 months of online balloting available).

But... this is not the message that the membership is communicating to the ILCA office. Rather, the message ILCA has received, with respect to sails, is that people do not want to see a radical change to the game. Rather, they want to see the same sail made more durable. And that is the challenge that has been put to the builders/sailmakers.
 
Re: Are Intensity Sails Faster?

As for the dealer network, I think the nature of that is going to change here. When we bought the Bahia at Annapolis, I spoke to the PSE rep and asked him how things were going to change in America. For one thing, he said that distribution would change. There will no longer be sales districts in which dealers can't work out of. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
If true, this means the damn fools do not recognize the value of a strong local enthusiastic Laser dealer. Few fleets begin without a strong local dealer. Few fleets grow without the support of a strong local dealer. No fleet can survive without a strong local dealer.
Dis assembling the local dealer network has killed growth in every sailboat class where a foolish builder has disassembled that network.

He also said that production would change and that we would get better boats.

What?? All Llasers are either 100% alike or they are not Lasers!! if the builder decides to buiuld a different boat...

Well what the hell will be the excuse for the rest uf us not to just build any old thing and call it a laser.
Or as this thread beagn...If the builders can change the boat why can't we use any old sail we can find??

Goose

gander??

huh???
 
Re: Are Intensity Sails Faster?

Merrily said:
He also said that production would change and that we would get better boats.

What?? All Lasers are either 100% alike or they are not Lasers!! if the builder decides to build a different boat...

huh???

Yeah, it's not a Laser(TM) if you don't have to file a warranty claim in the first twelve months. ;-)
 
Re: Are Intensity Sails Faster?

There are four parties that have a say in what happens: the class (i.e. its members), the builders, Bruce Kirby and, finally, ISAF (though it would be hard for ISAF to go against something the other three agreed to).

It would be a hurdle to get the builders and ...

But... this is not the message that the membership is communicating to the ILCA office. Rather, the message ILCA has received, with respect to sails, is that people do not want to see a radical change to the game. Rather, they want to see the same sail made more durable. And that is the challenge that has been put to the builders/sailmakers.

Interesting to learn more about the procedures. I suppose my question was more one of "motivational threat" (i.e. if the builder see what might just happen they might me more positive about a part way there solution).

I am keen on keeping things a strict one design, but feel that sails is one area where the fact that they wear out means that, if a change was made there would not be too long a period where people with differing bear were competing (e.g. change the boards and most people will be stuck with their existing boards for many years as they don't wear out too much).

If improvements can be made whilst keeping the "even playing field" (even if it takes a couple of years for the field to become even again) then I would be in favour.

Ian
 

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