Intensity sail observations?

Rob B

Well-Known Member
This weekend I had a guy tell me that he thought my Intensity sail allowed me to point higher than he could with his class sail. This is a first I've heard of a performance vairience between the two.

It was very shifty and puffy. I was REALLY playing my vang in the puffs and lulls. Moving my weight forward and aft. Really changing gears to adjust to every puff or lull. I noticed in the lulls I would point 10 degrees higher than him as I sailed up and over him while going to weather. I think I was just changing gears better and he got mad because I passed him on the last leg right at the finish.

Anyone else notice any differences?
 
Those conditions (racing, puffy, shifty) are meaningless as far as sail testing to compare one sail against another due to the fact that there are too many variables.

Real testing needs to be done in very controlled conditions, eliminating as many variables as possible (equal hulls, blades and spars, skippers of the same weight, and hiking ability when the wind is up, similar skill level and obviously steady breeze to name a few)
 
Those conditions (racing, puffy, shifty) are meaningless as far as sail testing to compare one sail against another due to the fact that there are too many variables.

Real testing needs to be done in very controlled conditions, eliminating as many variables as possible (equal hulls, blades and spars, skippers of the same weight, and hiking ability when the wind is up, similar skill level and obviously steady breeze to name a few)

I agree 100%. I think the guy was just hot about getting passed.
 
Fairly simple solution to specific cases like this -- offer to swap gear next weekend; he uses your sail, you use his. Then go out and kick his transom again, so he can learn it's not all about the equipment.
 
I think they give an unfair advantage in such conditions because they are cut differently and made of different sail material. ...But that's only my opinion
 
I think they give an unfair advantage in such conditions because they are cut differently and made of different sail material. ...But that's only my opinion

It will be interesting to see what kind of discussion if any occurs at our club on this. We have decided to allow these to be used in our club sailing. It's clear they trim differently. I"m not convenced of a speed/pointing advantage.
 
Who knows if your sail gave you an advantage or not?

But by allowing illegal equipment in your club racing you are opening the door to your fellow competitors blaming their losses to you on the fact that you have that illegal equipment. This goes against the whole spirit of Laser sailing. We are all supposed to have the same equipment so that we know who sailed the best on any given day.

Stop the rot now. What next? OEM masts? Clone foils?
 
Honestly, if its not the Olympics, Worlds, NA's, district champs, it doesent really matter, go ahead and use the other sails
 
What next? OEM masts? ...


These (OEM masts) are available in France (maybe elsewhere). they are about half the price of the Laser legal/official ones. I have no idea how widespread they are (after all, how would most people actually know ?


Ian
 
tell me more about these OEM masts, how are they different? I havent heard of them besides here

link? pics?
 
nicely done with the sources!

from what I was able to gather from the one english site, is that they are "school" spars, so I gather that they are tougher, and possibly a harder metal, withstand more abuse, etc..
 
Either that or they're designed for entry level laser sailors who won't put half the loads on them that you'd see in competition?
 
Here is my observation. I took my intensity sail out for the 1st time this weekend. Finished 4 and 5 in the 2 races out of 14. Last week was using my older class legal sail. Finished 2 and 5th. Same group of guys on the water.
 
Honestly, if its not the Olympics, Worlds, NA's, district champs, it doesent really matter, go ahead and use the other sails

That's your opinion, based on your program.

For the majority of others, local sailing, either at the club or district level, is their "Olympic campaign" and as Old Geezer points out above, it has the potential to change the game and that does matter to them.
 
That's your opinion, based on your program.

For the majority of others, local sailing, either at the club or district level, is their "Olympic campaign" and as Old Geezer points out above, it has the potential to change the game and that does matter to them.

Currently our laser crowd at our club is fine using the Intensity sails. We are a democracy so if the vote swings to no then its back to the class sails for our club series to keep the peace. That's my opinion anyway. Anything outside our club we don't even try to use the non-class sails or anything else.
 
Has this not been done to death? For god's sake lets move on and let this issue die. For those who have not heard all the arguments use the search function.
 
Has this not been done to death? For god's sake lets move on and let this issue die. For those who have not heard all the arguments use the search function.

Part of me says YES! YES! YES! The rest of me (the good twin) says what better place to vent than TLF?
 
I find it quite an interesting debate as it has wider implications than just sails. I regard it as the "one-design" issue. One of the main factors for me in purchasing a Laser was that it was a "one-design". Thus everybody in the race was on pretty equal terms. I think that most people purchasing a Laser are at least aware that it is a one design with strict rules. Prices for equipment are readily available and anybody buying a boat (new or 2nd hand) can easily find out the cost of any spares and how long different parts are expected to last - thus there are no surprises.


As a one-design, I personally would wish to be racing against others complying with the one-design rule - not because I'm just fussy, not because I can afford the proper parts (which I cannot always) but because, if I lose to somebody I do not want the "excuse" that they had a better e.g. intensity sail or stiffer Neuphar mast or ... . For me its about competing in as similar boats as reasonably possible. Of course I might have a brand new sail and somebody else a 20 years old sail and that can never be avoided. I see it as the rules keeping people on an equal footing as reasonably practical.


I think it is a valuable debate that will always be going on. this (and other threads) are about the Intensity sail, though there are other similar threads about JC straps, and other changes people would like (not like) to see.


I'm with those that regard the Laser as a one-design. If you want more choice of sailmakers (and maybe lower prices) and more capability to modify and tweak your boat then there are other classes well suited to such interests (and budgets).


Ian
 
Hello -

I have an 89 Laser that I still consider to be pretty competitive. I have not had to put a whole lot of money into it mostly due to the fact that almost nothing has changed in that time - apart from the control lines - which I finally got this year - Yippee

Part of the attraction of the boat is that it stays the same - that we all have the same gear and compete on a level playing field - NO Excuses. I would argue that if people start being able to substitute gear a few things will happen:

1) Some people will spend even more money to have 2 of everything - one legal for the regattas that need that and one illegal for the club races. The only folks that will end up with this setup are those that actually have the time to do both types of regattas.

2) For the rest of the crowd (those with families/other obligations that can only get out once a week and maybe for one regional regatta), the opportunity cost of two sets of gear is too high - so this group gets left not knowing if it is the gear or the themselves that sits them at the back!

As soon as people start thinking along those lines, the attraction of the boat is lost - instead of wanting more, of improving based on skill rather than gear, this group would feel that they are better off spending their one free night off playing golf (gagging sound here).

Now, the otherwise shipshape laser sits in the backyard unused for 10 years until JR says - hey Dad (or Mum) can I use that? To which Dad replies - don't bother - let's hit the links. Another potential sailor lost.

So yes, it is tempting to say - let's use the cheaper sails and the cheaper masts and the cheaper (insert expensive equipment here). But at what cost? I suggest that cost when measured in lost sailors is too high.

I have read the threads about this topic over the years - And always come back to the same thing, I got into the boat for the purety of the competition - not to sit there and question my gear.

So forget about it and sail already!

My two cents -
M
 
Who knows if your sail gave you an advantage or not? But by allowing illegal equipment in your club racing you are opening the door to your fellow competitors blaming their losses to you on the fact that you have that illegal equipment. This goes against the whole spirit of Laser sailing. We are all supposed to have the same equipment so that we know who sailed the best on any given day.Stop the rot now. What next? OEM masts? Clone foils?

You can buy OEM masts from OptiParts (McLaughlin) in the states right now. So let's hear it, no one using an Intensity illegal sail should have a a problem with different spars after all they are made out of aluminum and look to be the same shape and size. I think they are working on blades as well....Pandora's box is being pried open
 
Any chance we could get back to the OP's question: "Anyone else notice any differences?" [between the Intensity and Class-legal sails]?
 
To get back to the post -

I have not seen any difference - although I would be interested in someone setting up a test to really figure it out.

Would need to be in Constant Breeze, Few Waves and No Current. Then have the boats beat for 20 minutes taking readings on speed, heading and if possible wind speed.

Then switch the skippers, and do it all over again. I suppose you'd need to do this over a variety of conditions to make sure that one sail is not better in one set of conditions over another.

Not to get too geeky about this, but in order to get anything close to enough data points to be able to conclusively say that there is or there is not a difference, you'd need to use a large number of seperate sails and boats to eliminate all the variables but the sail. I think this process alone would take so long and be so cost prohibitive, that other than anecdotal evidence, any conclusions are purely speculative.

My (other) 2 cents.

M
 
- although I would be interested in someone setting up a test to really figure it out.

M

Out of interest, why ? If you found no difference a boat using the sail would still not be a Laser and if you found a difference, all those using it would be unlikely to rush out and buy a class legal sail.


Ian
 
I think they give an unfair advantage in such conditions because they are cut differently and made of different sail material. ...But that's only my opinion

This is not correct. While our material has a firmer finish, the cut is identical.

I have been using an intensity full rig sail for 2 years. My finishes are where I deserve to be. I have been up and down. The limiting factor has been my ability. As it should be.
 
http://www.laserforum.org/search.php?searchid=96930

Here are a few hundred more opinions on the same topic (again and again)

Not really. What's been beat to death is the "shold we use non-class approved stuff" topic.

What has NOT been discussed is weather or not there is a performance difference between the North/Hyde and Intensity sails. What wold be great would be to have someone like Andrew Campbell or Mark Mandelblatt, (soemone along those lines) try both and share his opinion. Same w/the radial. Lett Anna try one and give her thoughts.

However, these threads keep getting hijacked by the "it's a crime to allow non-class gear on the laser for ANY reason" crowd.

Ya'll do what you want and we'll do what we want. You can sleep knowing when we show up at an actual "Laser regatta" or non-home club laser event we'll be 100% legal with the class approved gear.

It's like this. When I'm in my house I'll do what I want, when I want, (as long as my wife agrees). When I come to your house I'll mind my manners.

Now, can we get back to the reason this thread was started?
 
Now, can we get back to the reason this thread was started?

I agree. You've successfully registered your disapproval. Please stop showing the Search function and also the discussion of whether non-class legal stuff should be allowed. People have a right to discuss this without having the thread hijacked.
 
This is not correct. While our material has a firmer finish, the cut is identical.
---snip---

While the two sails may have seams in the same locations, that does not mean the broadseaming and luff curve offsets are identical. (not like you can buy the design, pattern or plotter cut files on the street or can you :rolleyes: )

The fact that the material is firmer and probably has better stretch numbers (especially bias) then the class approved cloth would suggest that to achieve the same flying shape, the design would have to be different (fuller). If the design/cut was identical, then the flying shape is going to be flatter with the firmer cloth.
 
I am in the a position to comment (for the 5000 th time I will say the same thing) that one is no faster than the other. I have 2 boats both around the same age in the same shape. I have 2 sails both within a month of each other. One is class legal and the other is an Intensity. They are the same, one is not faster or slower than the other. I will do as well with one as I will with the other. The reason for 2 is I used one for practice (hence the reason that the manufacturer calls it a practice sail) and one for racing in regattas where it matters. If I had to choose I would pick the class legal sail if for no other reason than I hate this constant repeating debate. I am not racing lasers this year so I will be using the Intensity and my son will only be using a class legal sail. That way if he does have a good race he will not be whined at because he beat someone who feels they are faster than him.
 
I think folks would get a sense of the time and effort required to maintain and develope a level playing field - meaning - people are upset about the cost of laser sails - I think that there is more to it than simply the cost of making the sails.

If Intensity were to pony up the cash, the boats, the time and the effort to prove that their sails are the same as a class sail (in other words, pay someone independant were to do the testing), then I doubt that the price of the sail would stay low.

I guess I have no issue with a sailing school using the cheaper sails to help get people into the class. I do get nervous when clubs start racing with them as it may drive some folks away - and I think if we were all a bit more aware of how hard it is to make two things the same and to prove it, maybe this debate would die down a bit. That's all really.

M

You make some very good points. I would like to point out that if clubs use them because of price (good reason if you have to buy 10-20 sails) then don't allow them in races that you now don't allow your JR. club boats to be raced with the rest of the fleet in my area this would cut the fleet in half.

By the same token if I say then the JR club boats can use them how can I expect others not to be allowed to use them.

If I remember back a year or so ago the guy from Intensity mentioned that he tried approaching the class about becoming legal but was shot down. I will let him comment on that if he feels the need.

I have found that the mix is not a problem and the more boats that we can get on the line the better.

I would like to point out that I do know that we all want the same thing we just have a different opinion on what would happen to fleets if the sails were allowed to be used in racing even at the club level.
 
You make some very good points. I would like to point out that if clubs use them because of price (good reason if you have to buy 10-20 sails) then don't allow them in races that you now don't allow your JR. club boats to be raced with the rest of the fleet in my area this would cut the fleet in half.

By the same token if I say then the JR club boats can use them how can I expect others not to be allowed to use them.

If I remember back a year or so ago the guy from Intensity mentioned that he tried approaching the class about becoming legal but was shot down. I will let him comment on that if he feels the need.

I have found that the mix is not a problem and the more boats that we can get on the line the better.

I would like to point out that I do know that we all want the same thing we just have a different opinion on what would happen to fleets if the sails were allowed to be used in racing even at the club level.

You beat me to the punch. I actually deleted my post as I don't know anything about what Intensity has or has not done/offered to do and therefore, my comments were completely unfounded and pretty useless really.

The whole issue is an unsolvable double edged sword - You allow the sails, the JR's are involved, but you may tick off some others. You don't allow the sails, JR's are left out, but others are happy. So.... what to do.

I didn't really want to continue my involvement in the post as I don't think it will do any good - I'll just live with whatever rules come down either way. I am not nearly good enough to be able to tell the difference.

I agree with your post and I respectfully withdrawl my post.

Matt.
 

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