Class Politics honestly now, what changes do you want to see

R

Ross B

Guest
lets flip the tables here

if you guys could change absolutly anything on the laser, and lets be kinda serious.... what would you change?

and lets not be negative, i want to try to accomplish something
 
traveler. the traveler could be change to somthing more effecient and does not interfere with the tiller in light air
 
I always thought a center traveler would be cool, but that would require actuall change to the deck, fiberglass work, and dunno how the rear trav vs center trav boats would compare, but i'm still open to it

anyone else?
 
Longer lastng dacron sail or less expensive one if it lasts as long as the current one. Somethng to keep top sectons from bending/breaking, (not carbon). Blades that don't warp in heat.
 
if you guys could change absolutly anything on the laser, and lets be kinda serious.... what would you change?

The JC strap is worth pushing. Won't cost more than a few bucks and will make sailing downwind in minimal breeze much more pleasant. No more contorted bodies :mad: and a chance to strategically look around! This has all been stated before in the other thread.
 
The JC strap is worth pushing. Won't cost more than a few bucks and will make sailing downwind in minimal breeze much more pleasant. No more contorted bodies :mad: and a chance to strategically look around! This has all been stated before in the other thread.

i love you
 
Changes I'd like to see...anything that makes it faster/easier to rig and de-rig.

It takes time to assemble the parts and tie all those knots.

The laser is better than most, but I'd like to get out on the water faster.
 
Changes I'd like to see...anything that makes it faster/easier to rig and de-rig...
I agree.

It would also help me to have a small electric powered propeller attached to the hull. It's application would be based on skill level.
 
Either improve mast/sail quality or reduce prices by at least 50% (here in Europe a sail costs 600+ euros and a top mast 180+ euros. Both can be ruined in a few hours sailing with 18+ knots.

JC strap is a good one, credit to Wavedancer.

Allow to work on the centerboard box, all the noises, water coming in when downwind in brezze, and the angle loss is annoying.

The traveler stopper moved, so we can sail with more tension without the tiller hitting it.
 
most of us seem to have the same veiws to have somthing donewith the traveller and cheeper sail and spars.


Actually, I don't want any changes for a while that could possibly change how we sail the boats. Neithere the traveler change nor the JC strap thrills me as much as it bothers me.
Reason? The local fleet is the majority of my sailing. When we changed sailcloth it took three eyars to get most of the sailors out there with equal sails again. Then North took over from Haarstick and we had a few more years of two types of sail that sailed at two different speeds.
Now we have about 50% of the fleet using teh new rigging. Probably 75% will have the new rig this year but only a few of us will have the boom sleeve.
A new raveler or hold the boom out gizmo will not improve racing but it will once again make the boats different.

Sorry. I don't look foreword to those changes at all.


BUT!! I would love to see a simple innovation for the reduction of top mast breakage.

If we put a shelf inside the lower mast, the collar and rivet would be unnecessary. I believe a bolt could be placed in the back of the lower section tapped through a biscuit inside the mast. The top mast lower plug could simply sit on that biscuit. The collar could simply sit at the top of the lower section and it would probably need nothing to hold it in place. If the collar had a tendency to float up and out of the lower section, it could be held in place by tape, glue or even a tiny fastener.
Thgis would change nothing in the performance of the boat except breakage would be less of a problem.
 
well gouvernail, cheaper sails dose not nesessarily mean we have to change the type of sail. its up to the class to say, "if you dont lower the price of these sails we will take are business somewheres else" or cutt out the middle man and dont have the stupid class button on the sails.

3" alluminuim tubing goes for $1.00 per foot plus tax with nothing done two it so why the hell are we payin like two hndred for different mast sections?

maybe we wont do aything to the rigging just yet wait for everyone to get back on the same page but the cost of sails and spars needs to go down, im only a high school student and i have to pay for anything to do with sailing and its linda hard whne im only making 8.25 an hour.
 
Gouv, you're spot on about the change that should be made to the top section. I seem to recall that someone had a preliminary design for something just like that several years ago in the days of the Laser e-mail list.

This idea seems like it should be a no brainer since it would allow the end for ending of top sections, you wouldn't have a weak point from the collar rivet hole and therefore wouldn't have to worry about aligning the rivet. I also doubt it could be more expensive when you consider manufacturing time needed to attach the collars currently. You could actually cut the plastic tooling needed to just two pieces now instead of three since the end plug would be used twice and you wouldn't need the connector sleeve (collar) or connector plug. Retail, you're looking at about $11.10 in plastic parts on the upper section compared to $22.50 currently. I would think that this new "shelf" fitting shouldn't cost much more than the $16.95 retail that the current connector sleeve (ie collar) and plug cost. And even if it costs a bit more it should be worth it, if it cuts down on breaking upper masts.

When they started all the talk about the carbon top sections I was surprised that the designs all seemed to include a collar in some fashion (either molded in or attached). Wouldn't making just a plain tube and capping the ends be easier, cheaper and better?

If there is any change made to the class in the near future, I think that this should be at the top of the list since it's relatively simple, inexpensive and would promote the longevity of the equipment (fewer broken uppers and torn sails) while it wouldn't affect performance and make old equipment obsolete and shouldn't be significantly more expensive than what we have now. Since the class rules already permit end for ending spars this might not even need a class rule change to do, the manufacturers could just make the new piece and start shipping. . .
 
its up to the class to say, "if you dont lower the price of these sails we will take are business somewheres else" or cutt out the middle man and dont have the stupid class button on the sails.
If I am not mistaken, the class is the middle man.

3" alluminuim tubing goes for $1.00 per foot plus tax with nothing done two it
I don't think so! This cannot be the same quality as the laser masts.
If you find marine quality tubing you can order the length, add the three pieces of plastic and - even while you did not buy an official laser mast - no one will ever find out, nor will it give you any advantage.

maybe we wont do aything to the rigging just yet wait for everyone to get back on the same page but the cost of sails and spars needs to go down, im only a high school student and i have to pay for anything to do with sailing and its linda hard whne im only making 8.25 an hour.
We have all been there. It is not impossible to sail on a tight budget. It will in fact make you appreciate your boat much more and will lead to better care of your gear and boat. I hate to see wealthy kids get a boat from their parents and they just leave it sitting at the club all winter with the sail still on it. When you have to work hard to make sailing possible in the first place, you will take much better care of your belongings...
Laser sailing can be done on a budget and you do not need a new sail every year if you only use it at the major events and take good care of it. Of course, I would also like to see the price go down, but since - at least I think this is the case - the class is financed through the sale sails, I am not so sure whether that is possible.

Georg
 
There are people out there fit, young and knowledgble enough to try an olympic campaign. Poor quality build is an issue, you need 3-4 sails, plus 2-3 top sections/season, this is a problem.

Not for Robert Scheidt, but for sure for the grown ups who want to be the next big guy on the fleet.


I nature my boat as it was a girlfriend, but a new top section won't resist me an hour sailing in a 18 knot breeze.

This is a sad fact, and something to blame the constructors and indeed, the fleet for tolerating. The sail will be useless too.
 
For me it's quicker rigging and derigging.
I had the pleasure of rigging and sailing a Byte recently. In case ya dont know - the mast stays up and the sail is raised on a halyard and zips around the mast. This is a one person job and takes seconds. Fitting the sail like a sock over the mast is just silly ! Also with the Byte, the cunningham and outhaul virtually stay fitted to the boat.
Rigging and de-rigging really takes minutes. No knots - its all done with shackles.

One of the few things i dislike about laser sailing is derigging after an exhausting sail. Undoing knots with cold and wet hands, lifting the mast out.

Thats my suggestion.

Oh i just noticed this,
(Ian Bruce put his 18 years of experience with the Laser into the development of the Byte. Just to name a couple of improvements: the Byte has a zippered main that can be lowered at the dock without taking the mast out of the boat)
http://www.onedesignplus.com/boats/byte.asp


Seems like its not my suggestion at all !
 
It would be too difficult to travel with, store and expensve to ship with new boats as they would not fit in the laser box.
 
this is true

but i think most every other boat on the planet finds a way to manage

and maybe then we could find a way to get rid of the sail sleeve/sock
 
All the other boats travel on regular trailers wth mast racks. Again, harder to store, more expensive to ship, more expensive boats. The sail sock will never go away. There's always the Finn to satisfy your needs for a haylard and one piece mast.
 
A halyard raised Laser sail has come and gone--the Radial M rig.

I'm really happy with the boat and don't want to see any changes in particular. I like the classes' glacial rate of changes. It keeps costs down in starting up and also saving with measuring fees, and we've got a great fun boat!
 
There have been a few experimental 2 piece carbon masts made (full rig), with sail track, and simple locking device at the head, but no halyard. The system is similar to what a few classes use, with a SS ring at the head of the sail, stiff luff rope (plastic actually) that is pushed up the track.

Interesting concept, but IMHO, the existing system of luff sleeve and webbing is simple and foolproof. Besides, who is going to leave their $$$$ carbon spar standing up day after day, so having a sail that you can raise or lower without taking down the mast seems pointless.
 
Interesting concept, but IMHO, the existing system of luff sleeve and webbing is simple and foolproof. Besides, who is going to leave their $$$$ carbon spar standing up day after day, so having a sail that you can raise or lower without taking down the mast seems pointless.

Not that I'm advocating it for the Laser, but the Europe has a protective system so you can leave the mast standing. After you lower the sail, you attach the halyard to a zippered sleave that you raise around the mast. It closely covers all but the tip of the mast, and if you wanted, the boat is small enough to capsize and cover even that exposed bit. I imagine the same would be true for a Laser on its dolly. The problem with the Europe is its expense (almost twice the price of a Laser, I believe), which is the reason that it lost out to the Laser Radial as women's single-handed dinghy in the Olympics.
 
if you guys could change absolutly anything on the laser, and lets be kinda serious.... what would you change?



I know it may be nitpicky but I would like to see the change to modern adhesives to bond the hull and deck together. The one design argument to use very old technology doesn't wash with me as it does not make the boat faster and old boats for the most part are not competitive with new boats anyway. So why not make the improvement?

The other change would be an improvement on the forward edge of the top of the daggerboard trunk. a replaceable plastic insert maybe? the fact that older boats have been worn away at that point seems to me to be avoidable.

An integral bow "bumper" to protect from those rare colisions might be a nice touch and if easily and inexpensively replaced then those pesky repairs might be minimized.
 
I know it may be nitpicky but I would like to see the change to modern adhesives to bond the hull and deck together. The one design argument to use very old technology doesn't wash with me as it does not make the boat faster and old boats for the most part are not competitive with new boats anyway. So why not make the improvement?

The other change would be an improvement on the forward edge of the top of the daggerboard trunk. a replaceable plastic insert maybe? the fact that older boats have been worn away at that point seems to me to be avoidable.

WORD, we gotta be serious here, and be able to change with the times
and possibly use more eco-friendly resins and stuff?
 
An integral bow "bumper" to protect from those rare colisions might be a nice touch and if easily and inexpensively replaced then those pesky repairs might be minimized.

what kind of material would the bumper be made out of?? would it be large and cumbersome, or be sleek and blend in?? I would prefer if lasers didnt turn into the bumper boat fiasco that is high school FJ sailing. (these FJs all have big rubber bumpers on the bow). Having the fear of a hole being punched into your boat by someone else's bow makes you a better sailor and boat handler...If you're really worried buy a beater and get good at handling before you buy a nice, competitive boat.
 
If instead of the top mast collar and separate top mast bottom plug might design a one piece nylon cylinder to serve both these functions (and at a standard length to reduce bend variability). If this was then fitted inside the top of the bottom section semi permanently (just force fit like the bottom plug) it would mean that the top section could be 'double ended" (i.e. have the same top cap at both ends.

Advantages of this would be no fasteners to waken or corrode, Could end for end the topmast and rotate it to even out wear - and although you might have to buy another one of these 'cylinder' things for your Radial bottom section - once fitted hopefully it would improve the fit with the topmast.

Currently it is a great annoyance when switching from the Standard rig to the Radial in that you have to add or remove tape to get a good fit. Otherwise a bottom top section plug that is a neat fit in my Radial bottom section is impossible to get into my Standard bottom section. Sanding it down to fit the Standard means it is way too loose in the Radial.
 
I am a 66 year old former Star (5347) owner that has been sailing since 1949. I feel that Harken blocks should be allowed for the main sheet and that a better two part block system for the travler needs to be allowed. The "tape" system used now on the travler blocks to keep them together is not really a first rate way to go. My proposal would be a small expense and would help us older sailers who lack the strength that we once had. The main sheet blocks on the Laser are out of date. This proposed change would not impact speed, only help older sailers keep going.

We own two boats 144123 & 135213
 
Fundimentally I would not allow any changes, however I would allow the ability to source and replace various components from anywhere as long as those components did not have the potential to effect performance. For example as long as people are not adding extra falls on the mainsheet or controls who cares if the blocks ar Ronstan, Harken, Holt or anything else. If someone damages a mast section they should be able to go down to the nearest aluminium supplier and buy a replacement as long as its the correct spec ( length, diameter, wall thickness) and the fittings installed are the same.

Sails, foils, hull, and placement and style of fittings need to be tightly controlled, as they are. As well as the fundimentals of how the boat is rigged.

The beauty of the Laser is that you can take a 20 year old boat and this years boat and race and it's the sailor that makes the difference. As far as I am concerned it you want to start changing the design go get yourself into a Development Class not One Design.

And by the way if you are one of the people complaining about the cost of sails, when you start buying custom built exotic cloth sails for your new development class boat, you will probably wish you were still sailing Lasers.
 
Fundimentally I would not allow any changes, however I would allow the ability to source and replace various components from anywhere as long as those .....

I think I would broadly go along with some of that - but maybe that's just because I'm unaware of some of the implications. I'm very keen that the Laser stay a strict One-Design, but it needs to be kept in some sort of balance. In practice I would think some expert advice would be necessary regarding what fittings could be "relaxed" and which not. For example, I could see problems allowing people to source their own alu tube for masts. Firstly, the bend characteristics could have a massive impact on performance (subject to crew weight, etc.). Also, when somebody buys a 2nd hand boat its nice to know that the mast is of a "known standard". However, that is a different matter to the manufacturer of blocks, etc.


Ian
 
yea, sourcing masts could be bad


but I see no problem with using what ever kind of traveler fair leads you want
 
Point taken, however I was thinking more about the situation of when you are at an event and you bend or break something and it's not a matter of cost but avalability that is the factor to go out racing again and be within class rules. I have seen the situation of going to a regatta, breaking something and essentially being unable to continue, it is disheartening.

Hulls can be patched, foils for the most part repaired, you can often put a damaged sail back together with sail tape and be within the rules. but you can't fix a broken mast or serverly bent one, or boom for that matter.

This is where and why I would like to see some more flexability.
 
Bigger rudder for a better balance between the foils would be good...

Although I don't see how this could be implimented, with some users on the original and others on the new, I guess it wouldn't work with hindsight...
 
Bigger rudder for a better balance between the foils would be good...

Although I don't see how this could be implimented, with some users on the original and others on the new, I guess it wouldn't work with hindsight...

Well..The rudder is behind you. About the only way to see it is hindsight.

Speaking of hindsight.

if you don't hurry up and sign up for teh laser masters NA Champs you will begin June with bad hindsight.

Go here>>>
http://www.2007mastersna.com/
 
back on topic...

a bigger rudder has been discussed at length before, it might be around here somewhere

the views on it are pretty mixed, I think its fine as is, but show me a prototype, and my view could change
 

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