News Worlds - Day 2 - or not!

beldar boathead

beldar boathead

Married to Primat Boathead
I talked to a sailor at Brant Beach today, and they did not sail due to winds at a fairly steady 25 with gusts to about 30. It sounds like they were right on the edge of sending them out, but decided against it. Another nice day at the beach - 65 degrees and raining.

I saw Geezer was complaining about low international competition, and am sure he will have some complaint about not sailing in breezes of 25 knots. I am positive the class would appreciate his assistance in boosting international participation - please consider volunteering to help, contributing ideas, suggestions, etc. I don't think either Clinton Edwards, USSCA president or ISCA President Andres Santana would decline if you offered to volunteer or possibly run for office.

BB
 
beldar boathead said:
I talked to a sailor at Brant Beach today, and they did not sail due to winds at a fairly steady 25 with gusts to about 30. It sounds like they were right on the edge of sending them out, but decided against it. Another nice day at the beach - 65 degrees and raining.

I saw Geezer was complaining about low international competition, and am sure he will have some complaint about not sailing in breezes of 25 knots. I am positive the class would appreciate his assistance in boosting international participation - please consider volunteering to help, contributing ideas, suggestions, etc. I don't think either Clinton Edwards, USSCA president or ISCA President Andres Santana would decline if you offered to volunteer or possibly run for office.

BB
Click to expand...

I would have been frustrated not to be sailing in 25 knots, but I'm not there so I have to respect the judgment of the PRO who knew all the factors involved in the decision not to race.

As for the invitation to volunteer and run for office... been there, done that. I've done my bit for the class in the past and decided, for various reasons, to move on to other things in sailing. I wish Andres Santana every success in rebuilding the class to be a major international class with genuine World Championships with strong international attendance. He's a great guy and if anyone can do it, he can.
 
ClintonEdwards said:
Charter Boats have anything to do with it?
Click to expand...

What do you mean sir? That Vanguard pressured the organizers not to race on Tuesday in what Scuttlebutt reported was "wind in the 15-20 knot range and gusts well over 25"? Are new Sunfish not capable of standing up to these conditions? I find that hard to believe. Please explain your comment more fully.

Or was it perhaps that the race committee had seen the standard of the fleet and worked out that a significant percent of the sailors would not be able to handle the conditions safely?

Here's a suggestion to improve the Sunfish Worlds. Go for quality (of sailors) not quantity. Strictly apply the first few paragraphs of the published Worlds qualification standards for US sailors. No wild cards. No begging anyone who can hold a tiller to enter the event (as happened this year for this event).

Sailors who were in the top seven at the NAs or have won a regional (plus the other qualifiers from midwinters, masters, junior champs etc.) can probably sail a Sunfish competently in 15-20 knots. So what, if we have a fleet of 30-50 boats instead of 100? We all know that there are at least 70 sailors in Brant Beach who have no chance of winning the Worlds.

I've already done my whining about the lack of international attendance at this regatta. All I will add is to ask what it's going to do for future interntational attendance of top sailors when they read on Scuttlebutt that if the wind is 15-20 knots there won't be any sailing? Do you think that motivates the kids from the Dominican Republic and Aruba and Curacao to show up for a future Worlds? Hell, it's even a turnoff for a fat old geezer like me.
 
If you were not there, you can not make any assumptions on the conditions. You also can not believe everything written in Scuttlebutt.

I was there, and can tell you that it was blowing 20-30, with higher gusts...and it was building during the day. There was also heavy rain with extremely limited visibility, and a forecast for heavy thunderstorms.

Where we were sailing there is only 5 feet of water, so any capsize ends up being a big deal very quickly as the upper spar digs into the mud.

On shore, several sailors preparing their boats were setting up to use reefs + jens rigs.
 
adavid said:
If you were not there, you can not make any assumptions on the conditions. You also can not believe everything written in Scuttlebutt.
Click to expand...

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't believe anything I read on the Internet (especially on this forum) unless I was there myself and then sometimes I don't believe myself. But I wondered where Scuttlebutt got their incorrect information? It reads almost like an official press release from the regatta organizers and why would they want to downplay the wind conditions?

Irrespective of how strong the wind was, nobody has responded to the two real points in my rambling post...

a) what has charter boats got to do with the decision?

b) how about going for less quantity and higher quality of sailors at future Worlds?
 
Old Geezer said:
Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't believe anything I read on the Internet (especially on this forum) unless I was there myself and then sometimes I don't believe myself. But I wondered where Scuttlebutt got their incorrect information? It reads almost like an official press release from the regatta organizers and why would they want to downplay the wind conditions?

Irrespective of how strong the wind was, nobody has responded to the two real points in my rambling post...

a) what has charter boats got to do with the decision?

b) how about going for less quantity and higher quality of sailors at future Worlds?
Click to expand...

a) A lot, obviously. OG likes to tease us, but the reality is that these are charter boats that need to be sold. They are still the property of Vanguard (and/or the dealers, who have bought them). It's quite simple: damaged/repaired fish won't sell well. Vanguard is a commercial enterprise that needs to answer to the accountants (now in GB).

Even though a damage fee is paid by contestants (which may not cover the cost of the repairs), just consider all these bent spars and damaged hulls (collisions in heavy weather with boats/sailors out of control at the leeward mark etc.) that would need to be fixed.

b) Limiting the participation isn't in Vanguard's interest. It's my understanding that Vanguard really wants 100 boats on the water, to be sold ASAP. So what if 70% of the participants aren't likely to become the next champion. A World's with the 30 top sailors would be so boring. And the fact of the matter is that the Sunfish class doesn't have the following of the Laser class anymore where certain championships are oversubscribed. On the other hand, all participants in this year's World's are still excellent sailors, winning club races etc., as far as I can tell. I recognize a few who ended close to the bottom a week ago; but they have outsailed me at the few regional regattas where our paths have crossed. It's just that competition at the World's level is not one, but two steps up from the club and regional level.

We need to make compromises and I think that the Sunfish World's is a great compromise for (all) Sunfishers.

OG knew most of this all along; he has been around the Sunfish class for a long time. He may even have participated in a World's himself. I hope he had fun and has good memories of the event. Isn't that what's it all about? Except for the very young, we know we are not going to the next Olympics.
PS: Paul Foerster has already done that (and a few other Sunfishers (in the Laser class), come to think of it. But I digress...
 
Thanks for the long and considered reply Wavedancer. But you seem to imply that Vanguard were calling the shots on whether or not to race on the windy day, and on the format for the Worlds. Is that really true?

Surely the PRO at Brant Beach YC should have had the call as to whether or race or not? Did Vanguard influence him?

And if the class said we only want, say, 70 boats at the Worlds and we will strive to attract only the top sailors from more countries to fill those slots, would Vanguard tell us we can't do that?

Yes I have been to a few Worlds. Yes it was a hell of a lot of fun. But are we really saying that the Sunfish Worlds should be a fun vacation for your average weekend sailor like me, or a genuine competition between all the top Sunfish sailors in the world?
 
Actually I’ve heard rumors that next years Worlds will be restricted to roughly 70 boats.

I think it’s a great idea. Over the last 4-5 years the registration for the Worlds has eventually been opened up to the general membership. I think that is wrong, don’t get me wrong I understand why we do it ($$$) but I still think it’s wrong. Fewer boats means fewer spots to fill which should result in less likelihood of going to open registration.

The Worlds should NOT BE OPEN TO JUST ANYONE!!!! Where is this class’s integrity? For Christ sakes I spent YEARS trying to qualify for a World Championship and now all I have to do is pay my dues. :mad:

I really hope Andres and the rest of the Board can get this event back on track.

BTW I also heard that the 2008 Worlds will be held at Buffalo Canoe Club. That will be the 4th venue that is essentially on the east coast of the US in the last 5 years…not very worldly!
 
I was there, I qualified, and yes the race committee left it up to Vanguard to decide to race that day. I believe it was totally due to conditions and potential problems. $150 deposit hardly covers damage that could have occured in those conditions. I've raced there many times and yes it is very shallow.

I know they were concerned about the fact that last year a competitor died on the race course. They had EMT's on the water and on land just in case.

I also heard next year it's limited to 75 and yes, you have to qualify.

Yes, I did not fair well and yes I have won my fair share of regattas locally and regionally. I was happy to be there, I learned more about rigging for heavy air, I weigh 125. David Mendenblatt shared how he put on a Jens Rig at 24 " and quite a few people made comments about it prior to the race he won. I should have done the same. Mine was at 12".

I'm not sure what the answer is as to who should or should not go. If the purpose is to sell boats then I guess open it up. If the purpose is to have only the best Sunfish sailors there then more restrictions need to apply.

It's hard to get practice starting in 100 boat fleets unless you race in numerous large classes which most of us don't unless you are a professional sailor.

If rebuilding the class is an issue then keep it open to 100.
 
Great. I heartily approve of the reduction in numbers and the idea of imposing real qualification standards. The years I went to the Worlds I was invited by the class office to be part of the US team. Sure they were digging deep in the list of potential qualifiers to get to me but I did have good enough results in NAs or Regionals to mean that I was invited. I have never applied for a wild card entry for the Worlds. It may be perverse but I kind of feel that if I'm not good enough to be invited on my merits I don't want to go just to make the numbers up to 100. If they get back to real qualification standards again it will motivate me even more to work hard to meet those standards.
 
Old Geezer said:
And if the class said we only want, say, 70 boats at the Worlds and we will strive to attract only the top sailors from more countries to fill those slots, would Vanguard tell us we can't do that?
Click to expand...

No, Vanguard would be so happy, I imagine.

I can think of many reasons why 'foreign' participation was down this year. I guess anybody can, so I won't list them. Too bad that so few sailors from the Caribbean participated this year.

More in general, now that Vanguard has been taken over by the British company, I am concerned about what might happen with the way the championships are run. Vanguard sponsors quite a few other major league events by providing boats.
 
I'm writing from Brant Beach. Another factor in the decline of partcipants might be the fact that BBYC was not going to host the Worlds but the NAs. We were approached by the class to do the Worlds instead and it wasn't finalized until Fall 2006. Wouldn't some of the overseas sailors need more time to apply for visas, etc. We were also told the timing of the Pan Am games affected our numbers. Oh, by the way, congrats to Judy!


joanne McCarthy
 
Wavedancer said:

I can think of many reasons why 'foreign' participation was down this year. I guess anybody can, so I won't list them. Too bad that so few sailors from the Caribbean participated this year.
Click to expand...

Well I can't think of "many reasons" why international visitors would pass up the chance to sail in a World Championships that's close to several major airports and that was being run by a club with a great reputation for running superb regattas. Please enlighten those of us that are too dumb to think of all those reasons. And, by the way, if it were so obvious that attendance of Central and South American sailors would be down, did our class leaders anticipate that? And, by the way, will those same factors affect next year's Worlds?

Wavedancer said:
More in general, now that Vanguard has been taken over by the British company, I am concerned about what might happen with the way the championships are run. Vanguard sponsors quite a few other major league events by providing boats.
Click to expand...

Well, I do know that PSE provides major Laser regattas on Europe with large numbers of charter boats so I don't see why they would want to change Vanguard's policy in the US for supporting major Laser and Sunfish events with boat charters. Surely these events are very positive for the manufacturers... they make money on charter fees, they then sell all the boats to dealers, and they get a lot of publicity for their product.
 
jackjackcrew said:
I'm writing from Brant Beach. Another factor in the decline of partcipants might be the fact that BBYC was not going to host the Worlds but the NAs. We were approached by the class to do the Worlds instead and it wasn't finalized until Fall 2006. Wouldn't some of the overseas sailors need more time to apply for visas, etc.
joanne McCarthy
Click to expand...

Good point Joanne. How long does it take to get a visa to come to the US as a tourist these days? Is it really longer than the time from fall to summer (9 months)?
 
Old Geezer said:
Well I can't think of "many reasons" why international visitors would pass up the chance to sail in a World Championships that's close to several major airports and that was being run by a club with a great reputation for running superb regattas. Please enlighten those of us that are too dumb to think of all those reasons. And, by the way, if it were so obvious that attendance of Central and South American sailors would be down, did our class leaders anticipate that? And, by the way, will those same factors affect next year's Worlds?
Click to expand...

We discussed some of these "many reasons" in a 2005 thread: http://www.sunfishforum.com/showthread.php?t=620

In addition,

Getting a visa is a hassle, so I have read. An applicant needs to pay a personal visit to the US Consulate General. That can be a problem.

Participating in the World Championship is expensive; even more so for sailors from abroad.

The initial info stated that it would be difficult to find a place to stay if one weren't to reserve early, because the area is so popular with tourists in late August.

The wind prediction for Brant Beach in late August wasn't promising. Of course, the reality turned out quite different, but who was to know.

It's nice when the racing site and the place(s) to stay are quite close (Charleston 2006, Hyannis 2004, St Maarten 2003). I didn't think that was the case this year.

I am afraid the same factors will play a role next year if the event will be at the Buffalo Canoe Club. But now the US sailors will have to get a passport....


Old Geezer said:
Well, I do know that PSE provides major Laser regattas on Europe with large numbers of charter boats so I don't see why they would want to change Vanguard's policy in the US for supporting major Laser and Sunfish events with boat charters. Surely these events are very positive for the manufacturers... they make money on charter fees, they then sell all the boats to dealers, and they get a lot of publicity for their product.
Click to expand...

That's good to read.
 
Wavedancer said:
We discussed some of these "many reasons" in a 2005 thread: http://www.sunfishforum.com/showthread.php?t=620
Click to expand...

Back in 2005 the main reason for the dismal showing of Americans at the Worlds seemed to be that it was too hard or too expensive for Americans to get to Martinique. Now in 2007 we seem to be saying that it's too hard for foreigners to get to the US because of our visa rules.

This all sounds a bit lame to me. People travel all over the world for business and pleasure all the time. If you really want to travel to location X to sail in an event that promises to be fun, exciting, challenging, rewarding, whatever, you will find a way to do it... save up your vacation, save up your money, plan ahead to get accomodation, visas, air tickets etc. It's not hard if you really want to do it.

Sadly I think the truth is that in recent years the Sunfish Worlds has not had sufficient "pull" to persuade people to make the effort to attend. And I still don't know why.
 
Once again, we had a 100 boat world with an extremely strong top 25. 12 countries represented, and many of the representatives competed at the PANAM Games as well. For all those that were there, you couldn't have asked for a better time, and the 150 volunteers from Brant Beach YC were phenomenal. Vanguard made the boat setup/packup go so much smoother than I have seen before this year. Personally, i'm disappointed they are dropping down to a 72-boat worlds as I like the big fleets, and if you could seen all the happy juniors at the regatta, you would agree it was a good usage of wild card spots.

Things to bear in mind:

1400/1800 members of ISCA membership are from the USA. Also, when you are the host country of the worlds, you are allocated 5 extra spots to the worlds, which means a best case scenario for a US worlds will be around 75% american, 25% the rest of the world. The ratio gets better as we travel to countries outside the USA, like Canada next year, and 2009-10 are rumored to be heading to the Caribbean. There were at least 3 former World Champions in the fleet, with a total of 7 World Championship won between them. There were at least 5 PANAM games competitors, and competitors that have won all 3 of the continental championships that the class holds. There was also numerous former North American Champions that did not make it into the top-30 in this fleet.

There are things that we can do as a class to help improve the situation. We can work on finalizing Notice of Races ASAP and promoting regattas well in advance which will assist with travel arrangements and allotting time to save money for the trip. We can encourage those who legitimately qualify by winning regionals, etc. to actually go use their spots at the world. We can consider adding more qualifiers, the current system as designed does not produce even close to 100 qualifiers in round 1, probably not even 50 of the 100 spots could possibly be filled by first round qualifiers. We can have some perspective when discussing class issues. Quite often, we have 80+ nationals/north americans, which is a very strong showing among ANY class of boat, and 100-boat worlds. I have seen results from other class where their national/worlds turnout is weaker than some of our smallest regions. We can also improve communications between the 3 major continents that race Sunfish (North/South Americans and Europeans). That is why I encourage people to join groups like the facebook group, where over 120 members have profiles with pictures, contact information, photo-sharing, etc. Sites like that just make it easier to keep in touch with fellow sailors from around the world. We should also strive to keep our operating costs reasonable so that we can keep our regattas affordable and accessible to the youth sailors.

We should also take pride in the fact that we are a PANAM Games class, and the 2008 O'Day Singlehanded Championship and 2008 Champion of Champions regatta will all be competed in Sunfish. There are many other good things in the pipeline including a new website look and feel to be launched within a few weeks, and some other notables that I'm sworn to secrecy on. Keep your heads up folks, next years going to be a fun one, and there still is a few good regionals left this year to try to qualify for next years 72-boat worlds at Buffalo Canoe Club in August 2008.
 
oompanyc said:
We can also improve communications between the 3 major continents that race Sunfish (North/South Americans and Europeans).
Click to expand...

Great post Brian. There are indeed many positive things going on with Sunfish Worlds sailing. As you say, Europe is one of the major continents that race Sunfish. How about hosting a Worlds there? There must be many venues there that would be attractive to sailors from the Americas.
 
Maybe we'll see European built fish again now with the new owner. It's been a while since there was a builder over there. With the exchange rate and shipping charges Fish prices have been going up quite a bit in Europe.

There have been a couple of European worlds http://www.sunfishclass.org/results/index.htm
But it takes a strong class in the host country to pull it off.
 
Back in the 70s, 80s and even early 90s, the class was populated by 22-30 year olds whose major focus was on sailing. Nowadays the class is mostly populated by older folks who have other priorities in life - careers, families, etc. I think the younger folks are either sailing Lasers or not sailing. It is imporant to note that in the US the Laser and Sunfish classes have the same number of members - it is internationally where Lasers have the huge strength. So I think the "problem" for Sunfish is an aging class and lack of a big international presence.

The solution is not a quick one, but I think it is solvable. In the US, we need to stress the depowerability of the boat that will allow everyone to sail together, unlike in the Laser class where you need to have a totally different rig to get around the course and the fleets are split as a result. Globally, our new President is doing a great job promoting the class internationally. But gettng the worlds back to the Carribbean in 2009 is going to be critcal. And you are right, hopefully we can get more new boats to Europe under the new ownership (I hope we can somehow work with the owner to convince them that they can make money doing this - after all that is what they are in business for.) A sunfish built in the US and shipped to Europe is probably going to cost more than a European built Laser, so I guess teh question is can anyone make Sunfish in Europe and make money at it, and will the builder think that is a good idea? They may prefer to put their money in the Laser, which is proven in Europe, as opposed to putting money into Sunfish, which is not. A better first step might be a Fish builder in South America - I believe now in South America and the Carrib a South American build Laser is either the same price as a Fish imported from the US, or the Laser is actually cheaper.

I am a firm believer that change creates opportunity, and we have change right now - I hope our class can work together to turn that change into growth. BB
 
Just an aside from here at BBYC, in the last couple of weeks since the worlds, the number of fish in our club races has doubled, my son is seriously considering dropping the laser to go back to the Sunfish, other clubs are getting more people out and alot of people who have pooh-poohed the Sunfish as not being as competative as the Laser have shut up!! I'm not saying any of this is going to last, but hosting the worlds has really helped our little Sunfish fleet here!

Joanne McCarthy
 
jackjackcrew said:
Just an aside from here at BBYC, in the last couple of weeks since the worlds, the number of fish in our club races has doubled, my son is seriously considering dropping the laser to go back to the Sunfish, other clubs are getting more people out and alot of people who have pooh-poohed the Sunfish as not being as competative as the Laser have shut up!! I'm not saying any of this is going to last, but hosting the worlds has really helped our little Sunfish fleet here!
Joanne McCarthy
Click to expand...

That's good to know Joanne. And, of course, that is one reason why it's good to move the Worlds around to different countries. I think many of the Caribbean and South American countries that have hosted the Worlds did so partly because of a hope that it would spark more enthusiasm for Sunfish sailing in those countries. Hope it worked for them too.

Perhaps hosting the Worlds in Ontario next year will trigger a massive growth in Sunfish sailing in Canada? We can only hope, eh?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top