World Masters Entries for SF

Discussion in 'Laser News Desk' started by gouvernail, Mar 20, 2011.

  1. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    I just found out about this website tonight.

    Good luck to those of you who were sufficiently in the loop to apply for a spot.

    Here is the website. .
     
  2. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    Sorry you missed it!

    The notices regarding the entry deadline have been posted in a number of places. For example:
    1) The ILCA website, obviously, is the first place to look for all world championship information. The deadline was a headline news item.

    2) From the ILCA website you can find the NOR which is, after all, the primary source of any information regarding a regatta.

    3) The ILCA website has finally hooked up to Facebook and, like ILCA-NA, their news items feed to their page.

    4) This has been the lead news item at www.laser.org up until the deadline when it was dropped from the home page. There were two items, the first (see this article) announced the beginning of the application for entry process, the second was updated to remind everyone of the impending deadline (see this one)

    5) Articles that appear on the front page of www.laser.org automatically appear on ILCA-NA's Facebook and Twitter pages: http://www.facebook.com/LaserClass and http://twitter.com/nalaser

    6) Finally, all articles appearing on the front page of www.laser.org appear in the "Laser News Desk" section of The Laser Forum - the same section this thread is appearing in. Look down 8 entries to this thread and 9 entries to this thread.

    7) Ok, really finally, as a last last resort the above were also sent to the "masters" email list which is actually still used (see the archives here).

    8) Well, I should also mention that a number of District Secretaries posted the information to their District websites or otherwise distributed information within their Districts.

    About all that is left is to call you on the phone, or maybe drive out to Austin with a 3G iPad and make you sign up.

    THE GOOD NEWS is that ILCA has told me there will be a second application for entry period that will open in April and which will give sailors a berth based on availability. Currently there are still slots open so people will still be able to get in. If you really and truly want to sail in the event then keep your eyes posted on the ILCA and ILCA-NA (and TLF) websites to watch for news.
     
  3. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    cool. Actually I found out when I checked the masters email list for the first time in five years.

    Had you come by with that Ipad you could have stayed for the big SXSW music and film festival Austin just wrapped up a couple hours ago.

    it was an absolute mob scene of musical groups, celeberities and spring breakers.
     
  4. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    ....But more seriously...

    the current system is perfect and everybody loves it
     
  5. Eric_R

    Eric_R D10 Secretary

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    I thought they removed the First Come, First Serve, and it seems like they did.

    I don't think they should automatically enter someone. If someone wants to sail they should put in the time and effort to fill out an application just like everyone else.
     
  6. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    Fred, I have to admit to a little bit of frustration here. It only takes a tiny bit of effort to be able to find ALL the information you need to understand how the system works...

    1) start with the NOR, in particular paragraph 3.3 which describes how the Districts/Regions will be responsible for ranking the competitors on the application list once the application for entry period ends.

    2) You can go to the ILCA allocations page to see how many slots each country or region will receive for the championship. Note that there will be an "initial allocation" which is a number assuming that all possible countries will send sailors, and then a "total entry limit per country" which is an ISAF mandated cap in order to ensure a true World Championship.

    3) ILCA also has a very nice page describing the entire entry system.

    4) Having read some fraction of the above, it is time to understand the North American ranking system for the Master Worlds, located at this page (scroll to the bottom).

    Right now Sherri Campbell is busy going through the rankings for ALL the 2011 World Championships, including the Masters. Current North American Champions, current World Champions, etc., will be classified as "Group 1" and be moved to the front of the list (in the order they applied). Sailors who have attended a recent World Championship are in Group 2, etc.

    So, for example, while Peter Seidenberg, for some unknown reason, decided to sign up "late", as the current Great Grandmaster world champion he will most likely be in Group 1 and amongst the first to be given an entry. Initially, only 33 entries will be given to North American sailors but that will quickly increase as unused slots from the rest of the world are made available.

    This system reflects the requests that Masters sailors, through the Masters' Committee, wanted to see in a ranking system, past just a simple "first come, first serve" system. Personally, I thought that system had some merit, in particular it seemed to me that the most motivated sailors always found a way to be at the top of the list!

    Having said ALL of this... as I write this the event is undersubscribed so the only real limit a sailor from North America will see is the region limit of 165 sailors. We have around 140 sailors from North America already on the application list, meaning that around 25 more will still be able to apply for entry when the secondary application process opens.

    Going off topic a tiny bit, the tea leaves suggest that the event charter boats will all be taken by foreign entries. However, the local dealer, Svendsen's Marine, and also West Coast Sailing are planning to offer charter boats to North American entries. So, it should also be possible to get a boat and fly here, instead of driving.
     
  7. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    By all means, anyone who has proven themselves on the race course deserves priority in entries. However, they still need to take the initiative to fill out an entry by a certain deadline.
     
  8. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Guys...I am not suggesting we coddle bunch of sissy lazy good for nothing twits:

    I am suggesting everybody should go sail and have a great time.


    Need practice??

    Come play with us in April or any year on Easter weekend. The entry period is open for any easter forever and never closes. In fact, you can still register for the 1984 event with no late fee. .
     
  9. Eric_R

    Eric_R D10 Secretary

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    Compiling all the results is not as easy as you make it. Not every regatta is run through Regatta Networks (which I don't think it should be) so that pretty much eliminates that. Now if you were able to take any scoring program and upload those scores from any scoring program into some kind of database that kept track of them, that would be a great idea.

    But pretty much access to the major events from the year as well as worlds from the previous isn't too tough Just putting them all into a spreadsheet and comparing them takes time.

    Tracy could explain why it took time to get the applications up this year but usually we see these in January. Should it have been communicated better this year, yes. Should they have given a little time to let people know, yes ( I think once it was a go they just wanted it to start). But we did get a day, enough for many of us DSs to send information out to our group to let them know.

    But really those who want to go they will keep looking(email the right people just to keep checking or check the website) checking a website or email for information isn't tough.

    Oh and once again, I don't care if you won worlds, you shouldn't have any special priority in signing up, if you want to sail, you put in the time and effort to sign up just like everyone else at the same time and shouldn't know ahead of time either.
     
  10. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    I did my best when it was my responsability. Thanks for noticing.

    We will have to disagree on that one. All I care about is making certain our sailors find it enjoyable to participate ++++++++++++++++

    Mostly I hope everybody who wants to sail finds a way to get out there and participate.!!!
     
  11. Mike M

    Mike M New Member

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    I think about 60 people entered for the masters worlds within the first 24 hours of the application being up so it does not seem to me that there was any issue with people who are keen to go not being aware of the event.
     
  12. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    I would just like to make a small request with respect to editing of posts... If I read this, and then if Eric and not quoted the original post when he replied, then his response would not have made sense, nor would have Gouvernail's response to that.

    I'd like to suggest that the edit button is for fixing typos, grammatical errors, etc., not for changing your mind on what you posted.

    From my perspective, the LaserForum also serves as a tremendous archival resource and its often useful to go back and follow the ebb and flow of discussions. But if entire sections of posts are deleted, or rewritten after the fact, then it becomes less useful for that.

    ok, off soapbox.
     
  13. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    I removed as much of what I posted as poosible as some of you seem to think my position contains acrimony as opposed to disgust with the failure of the Laser class assocaition to serve the role I believe it should serve.

    My difference of opinion with respect to the currently preferred and supported management style is as fundamental as it is absolute.

    The current management practices are based upon the belief Laser sailing is only for those who want to come sail Lasers and who will make the necessary effort to become involved and stay involved.

    My experience on every level from afternoon joy rides to world championships and with sailors of every skill level is a huge percentage of those who could be my playmates on the water will not show up to play unless they are ruthlessly dragged out to have fun.

    I believe the highest priority function of sailboat organizations on every level from local to international is to gather information and disperse it to ANYONE who might possibly be interested in playing with us.

    Drag them out and they might stay.

    The entire concept of a sailboat association using a minimally announced, short period for application as a filter to test the resolve of those who might wish to enter a championship is so totally foreign to my "Let's see how many friends we can invite out to play" philosophy I have difficulty imagining what possible reason any fan of one design competition would have for tolerating such behavior by those we PAY to run our association.

    I don't think like you guys.

    I never will think like you guys.

    The reason the signature below will NEVER need to be modified is None of you is capable of comprehending that which I have been trying to explain about building classes since I began running sailing associations in the 1960s.

    Please don't take this as mean spirited. It is meant simply as , "I am very sorry!!! You just don't get it."

    I am sorry for all those humans who will NEVER experience the joys of playing with us.

    I used to think some of the fault was my own for failing to explain it properly.

    My posts above, which were edited, were written to vent some of my frustration and perhaps did so in an unkind way. They certainly failed to get across the difference between inviting and letting people find out.

    "Those who really wanted to enter found a way and lookie lookie...60 did so"

    Anybody who could write that crap simply does not have a clue.

    That's too bad... But I am incapable of getting that point across the huge void between "Let everybody know as much as possible and beg them to come play" and "post a notice somewhere and all those who want to play will show up."
     
  14. Mike M

    Mike M New Member

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    Interesting quote from goverenail …”Anybody who could write that crap simply does not have a clue”…I was under the impression that I was expressing a different point of view than Governails but it appears that I have no clue.
    Well for what its worth I do have a different perspective. The world has moved on from the 1960’s and the internet is part of everyday life. Its amazing the number of laser sailors (of all ages) who are on facebook. I think the class does a great job of using the internet to give timely information about events. In the case of the laser worlds I suspect that many people were doing what I did which was to regularly check the class website for information (I’m amazed governail didn’t as he/she appears to be one of the more active users of the internet). Once I saw that entries for the worlds were open I emailed all the people I could think off who may have been interested in going to encourage them to enter…I also put an entry up on face book. I suspect others did the same. This is one of the ways the modern world is changing. And I think the class is going a good job of embracing the changes.
     
  15. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Yes the internet is a wonderful tool. The class management policy is based upon, "Everybody who wants to sail lasers has internet access and those who would like to sail lasers will seek out information using the internet.

    I believe the management policy should be based upon, "people who use the internet have a hard time hiding. Let's seek all of them out, tell them hoiw much fun we are ahving and drag them out to play with us."

    example relevent to this thread.

    The way it happened under the regime with which I am thoroughly frustrated>>>

    The savvy internet user who had an interest in going to the SF worlds was able to figure out application periods for the worlds usually open in Septemer or October of the year before those worlds. Those savvy internet users who cared a lot about entering could regularly visit the site beginning sometime in August in an attempt to post an application within the first few hours of the first come first served registration period.

    Those who really cared a lot kept checking in October...every day many times a day.

    those who still cared checked many times a day in November.

    After 100 days of constantcly checking many of those sailors who really cared a lot were still doing their daily checks to see if the "infoirmation coming soon" note had been removed and replaced with real information.

    In December those who still really cared a lot continued to check on a daily basis for information updates.

    Then in February, those who still cared after more than half a year of constant checking finally saw a change in the website and knew when it was time to register.
    60 sailors registered that first day!!! Our class is so great we have sixty sailors who will perform daily checks on a special signing up for the worlds website kept under construction by our employees for over a half year just to sign up.

    The way I think things should happen


    In 2002 I set up a database for the class and began filling in email addresses for every sailor who would give us one. By making a couple clicks and typing a few words, anyone who is competent in the use of Microsoft Access can use the database I developed for the NA-ILCA and easily send emails to every person in any age group of the North American Laser Class Association.

    As I believe it is the purpose of the class to find sailors and invite them to come sail with us. Were my management philosophy in place, my employees would have spent the five minutes necessary to send an email to every Masters sailor in North America to announce, "The application period begins at ____fill in date___.


    Actually, that isn't true. Were I in charge, the NA Class would have taken over the responsability of making daily checks for any sailor who submitted an application to the NA office. ON official Application day, those qualified members would have had their applications officially submitted by their Regional Authority at the official opening of the application period.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    If we are to use the class as a tool to grow the game of laser, Our Class management team needs to comprehend a number of concepts and must act on a number of tasks.

    The class is there to remove obstacles which sailors might encounter which might cause potential playmates to stay away from our activities.


    in the meantime, each sailor we fail to invite out to play, may not show up.
    Those who we fail to tell where to find boats, may not show up. Those we fail to tell where to find fleets may not show up. Those we fail to tell where to sleep at night may not visit regattas.

    There are so many reasons NOT to play. We need to endlessly discover those reasons and prevent those reasons from having a negative impact on our fun.


    The task of the class in that regard is endless..

    We currently use the internet to post information and we pay for a website where organizers may post information.

    I believe we must use the internet to disseminate information.

    I am hosting a 28th annual regatta in a couple weeks. There are a dozen people who will show up even if tehy see noting anywhere indicating the event is happening. There are another dozen who will show up because there is so much information on line.

    The remainder of the entrants will be sailors who I have personally contacted and personally invited to please come and sail the event.

    if I spend a dozen hours sending personal emails and phoning those who have given me contact numbers, I might push the entry list past sixty. If I did nothing for the next couple weeks but beat the bushes there is a chance I could cause a 100 boat regatta.

    I have no problem with dragging sailors to my regatta as I know each one of those who come will see good friends and have some great sailing.

    Sometimes I get the feeling the NA laser class management is embarassed about loving our toys and our games and our fellow members and that constantly begging everyboldy within earshot to come join us would cause them personal shame..

    There isn't anything happening anywhere on the planet easter weekend that will be more fun and satisfying for those participating than to come sail in the easter laser regatta.

    I sincerely believe that and I believe if the Pope would come sail with us he would find the experience does more for his relationship with god and his fellow man than standing in some building where there are no waves, sunshine, windshifts, and 5 boat wide reach mark roundings to be enjoyed.

    I am not kidding one bit. The world would be a much better place if everybody got on a laser and played together every easter. ..and christmas...and fourth of july...and bastille day...and mayday..and chinese new year..and on and on.


    Unlike horses and water... You can drag a person to the lake and make that person sail.
     
  16. Eric_R

    Eric_R D10 Secretary

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    I don't think sailors would appreciate the class signing them up for international regattas. There are application fees and questions that the sailor should answer (charter, etc), not the class. It's a big commitment to sail the event and the sailor should decide. Notifying them its available is all the class needs/should do.

    The class did notify everyone on the NA class website about the application date opening when they found out from the International Class. Like Mike said earlier once, that got announced, people passed it around. I know I sent my entire district an email because I know people wanted to know when and were frustrated with the lack of information.

    As for seeking out sailors, how do you do that? You search for email addresses of former sailors? The District Secretaries do that job. They (at least me) search for clubs that have fleets or used to have them, get in contact and give them help. I do that all the time with my District. I'm always surprised with what I find. I pass all the class information out to Jr coordinators so they get the info out to their clubs.

    All of these rants Gouv don't make mention of the District Secretaries and what they do for the class. They help the overall class management do much of that work.
     
  17. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Class secretaries often do huge amounts of work. Some, however, can't even manage to get their act together four times a year to write a brief note for the Laser sailor.
    As I wrote above...I created the database. A couple clicks on the office computer can generate emails to any subset of the ILCA-NA membership the operator chooses to contact. I am frustrated because I spent thousands of my own hours and thousands of my own dollars establishing a management operation for the NA laser class and it has been disassembled, ignored, or underutilied for the last nine years.

    As for "sailors not wishing to be signed up."

    Please do not lower the level of this discussion by introducing absurdity. Those who qualify for the worlds can be offered the "we will watch the ILCA idiots and whenever those disorganied incompetent nincompoops finally tell us the dates we will sign you up" service and none would be signed up unless they responded positively and made the proper financial arrangements.

    In 2011 the allmighty ILCA made its announcement that its minions could sign up to play in the masers worlds sometime in january or february. In North America the vast majority of the sailors do not touch their Lasers between september and june. few of us waste our winters looking at the internet to check up on how things laser are doing as we have other parts of our lives upon which to focus and couldn't give a rats patoot about something we haven't done for four months and will not be doing for another four months.

    the timing of the announcement made it invisible to all but sixty sailors consisting of a few fanatics and sixty of their closest friends.

    I am truly sorry anyone thinks that is good enough.

    please note: You aren't reading endless "damn tootin'" posts following my comments because, those who don't pay attention to their summetrtime hobbies at this time of year still have no idea the worlds entry period just came and went.

    Only the wierdo laser fanatics post on this forum in the dead of winter.

    and yes, the class might die altogether were it not for the wierdo fanatics.


    Finally. I appreciate every second enyone spends doing anything for laser sailing. I am frustrated some feel the deed is done after posting information where people can find it.


    and last...

    come sail easter weekend
     
  18. Eric_R

    Eric_R D10 Secretary

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    All the laser membership information is on the Regatta Networks system. That's a good and bad thing but that's a whole other thread.

    I'll agree with ya on the Laser Sailor notes, that does bother me every time I see them. I went through the old newsletters you sent me (thanks again by the way) and there were barely any D10 reports. Back then I think it bothered me so when I got the job I did what I could to get as much as I could.

    Blame ILCA for the early registration but it does offer issues. I assume the people know when or at least where they are the year before so it's something.
     
  19. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    When it comes to communications we live in a rapidly evolving world. I can remember when I got my first Laser that everything happened through what many now call snail mail. And into the 1990's it was a great service to have not only the year's schedule, but event NOR's sent in District newsletters and The Laser Sailor (in fact, a great many pages in TLS were devoted to just that). Then along came email and suddenly we had "instant" communication, followed by the world wide web where people could easily find schedules, Notices of Race, regatta reports, results, etc. online at their leisure. Fast forward to today and the range of available media sources is staggering. And what worked best just 10 years ago is not necessarily optimal today.

    I'm not a complete luddite, I have an iPhone, laptop computer, hey I even won the magic ticket lottery a few weeks back and have an iPad2! But I am an old guy in that most of my communication is through email. Personally, I have never understood texting - it just seems like a short email to me. I do have a FaceBook page but I really don't know what to do with it, other than confirm anyone who wants to "friend" me (ok, I have learned that not everyone who is "friending" is interested only in Laser sailing so I try to be a tiny bit selective...), same with my Twitter account. But it turns out that there there are legions of people who ONLY communicate through texting and use various social media to get their information - and a great number of them fall into one of our main target demographics!

    As we lead up to the 4.7 Worlds I can't tell you how many parents tell me to email them and they will then text their kids to tell them what's goiong on. They tell me to not bother emailing their kids because they would not be caught dead reading email, except maybe in exchange for eating liver and onions.

    It should also be recognized that with the tremendous growth in spam email in the past decade, a good deal of which contains various nasty critters that can impact your computer, people have become increasingly guarded about giving out their email. When people join or renew online they can tick a box saying the want to opt out of any email messaging and you might be quite surprised how many people do just that. Other people (e.g. my wife) maintain a completely separate email account for use when signing up for things and only go to it when they are expecting to receive an email (like a registration confirmation email).

    I was also told about a big discussion regarding updating the high school sailing website before their championship last year where people couldn't agree on the new look. In the end the statement was "who cares? none of the sailors look at it anyway, they're all on Facebook!" So, they created a Facebook page and its been a big success.

    Anyway, in today's world its a challenge for the Laser Class Office to keep up with the best ways to communicate with the sailors. What may work best for one group is not used at all for another, etc. I think they are currently striking a good balance with the front page of the website connected to Twitter, Facebook and the breaking news section here at TLF. There is also the option to use the database to select "opt in" emails in various groups (by District, by membership category, by age, by city, etc.) but the office has learned to use that sparingly.

    And I simply can't imagine what forms of communication will be necessary 10 years from now, but I do know that whoever is running the Laser Class Office will need to try to keep pace as best they can!

    Finally, I should also remind everyone that in the 1990's the communication that goes on here at TLF was done via an email list which contained something like 800 members. There was quite a debate when TLF hit the scene and not many people were happy with changing - in fact I know that there are some people who refused to transition. But participation on TLF has dwarfed the peak of the email list and is much more worldwide in scope. The old Laser email list still exists (in fact, the Masters email list is even occasionally still used) but, clearly, TLF has shown itself to be the preferred method for discussing Laser issues at the regional and world levels.
     
  20. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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