Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it was

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by gouvernail, Oct 15, 2007.

  1. Laser of the Corn

    Laser of the Corn Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Great, we'll look forward to your report after the Worlds?
     
  2. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    My position respecting sails follows:

    I believe the ILCA should host a contest among anyone who chooses to enter a prototype. Certainly the current sailmakers would be invited along with everyone else on the planet.
    Entrants would be expected to either show an ability to produce consistently identical sails in the large numbers needed by our game or donate their design rights to the ILCA.

    The prototypes would be passed around among world council members or a small committtee of those members and tested.

    The sail which the WC decided was the "best for the money" would be supported by the WC as their choice for use by Lasers in Class Sanctioned Laser Class Events.

    The next step in such an endeavor would be to convince the builders to supply new Lasers with the new sail.

    I believe the class could hold the contest with a goal to be able to approach the builders with the following proposal:

    We have a better, less expensive, and more durable sail for you. It can be controlled in various conditions without imparting nearly as much stress on the rig or pulling as hard on the control lines. Its performance is slightly better in all conditions than the current sail but it is not so much faster that every sailor in every local fleet will be forced to immediately purchase a new sail. Production costs are within pennies of the production costs for the old design and there will be no need to modify the marketing shares for anyone in the current supply chain.


    I would appreciate it if the North American representative to the next meeting of the World Council would campaign to begin the process which might possibly end with such a proposal for our builders.

    MInor details would include:
    1. A date when the sails would be allowed in sanctioned events.
    2. Defining and publishing a minimum number of years during which the new sail would be "the official sail." ( so purchasers could buy with confidence that THE OFFICIAL sails would remain THE OFFICIAL sails)


    Please note. The above is a concept. It is not meant to be a FINAL proposal.
    If yopu agree with the concept...let our president know.,

    if you disagree with the concept shoot it down.

    If you simply want to tinker with the proposal but agree with the concept, please make that clear before you begin your criticism...so others will understand your intentions and even help modify the proposal.
     
  3. mfrymier

    mfrymier New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    If we are really going to be productive about this, might I suggest we TOTALLY revisit the sail material? You can totally laugh at me, but I would love to see some sort of mylar / kevlar type sail, similar to what they use on the Megabyte. Although these sails would likely cost marginally more, they would last SOOOOO much longer (read: actually cheaper for local racers over a couple seasons).... I would suggest not changing the actual draft / etc.
     
  4. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    I posted a pic of a sail that someone had made, exactly what you wanted. It was gunned down.





     
  5. fracisco

    fracisco New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    You posted a windsurf sail photoshopped onto a Laser on a reach. It did not have the same planform or batten layout as the current sail.

    This is more along the lines of what is being discussed:

    http://www.laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=7685
     
  6. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    It's not a windsurf sail, windsurf sail's are designed differently, but use similar construction techniques.

    The platform is the same, uses the current mast and boom, and the batten layout is different because IT IS A TOTALLY NEW SAIL!
     
  7. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Not to waste time arguing, but the sail Ross is talking about is much larger (over 100 sq ft IIRC), was a true fat-head design and used camber inducers on the front end of the battens. None of those features is needed to improve the current sail.

    Don't lose site of what the criteria is for making a change as far as the Laser organization is concerned..

    Of course, if you like banging your head against the wall, carry on...
     
  8. HECS

    HECS New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    I bumped into a three-time world Masters champ, someone who can regularly beat the top North American Olympian, the other day. He reckons he gets 50 races out of his sails, or perhaps "just" 3 regattas if it's windy.

    So that's the second of our three-time world Masters champs who reckons that Laser gear lasts well. Oh, and a certain Tom Slingsby denied that he is allowed to select special gear as some people reckon.

    Film sails can be great (I own and love a bunch of them) but there is concern about at least one strict OD class that recently moved to film sails. They just aren't lasting at club level. It's disappointing, I was a supporter of the new gear.
     
  9. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Shouldn't the "new rags"[​IMG]sails at the worlds be pretty?? Otherwise this would be a great photo.
     
  10. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    That has to be a doctored picture. If not it is an embarrassment to the class and should cause the entire ILCA representatives to have returned home to be investigating alternatives as we speak.

    Ian
     
  11. HECS

    HECS New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    So you want smooth, wrinkle free sails like the windsurfers and Finns have?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Maybe wrinkles aren't too slow?

    As posted before, in at least one recent class that recently moved to film sails, quite a few top sailors are now very disappointed with their durability. They are not a cure-all.

    I run a class that uses mylar sails. They are great for a couple of seasons or more....but growth in the class is hurt by the fact that old hulls come with sails that are falling apart and there are not many (any!) decent second-hand sails around.

    Ross, the rig you showed can come with its own problems. The camber induced pocket luff concept (far from new, it was seen in Moths in the '60s) normally means you have to rig with the sail lying down. That's fine in some clubs, but a disaster in others - the two Laser clubs I sail at simply do not have room room for everyone to rig their sails lying down.

    One local high-speed class moved to rigs that mean that boats had to be put together lying on their side. They became a minute or so faster - and the class died totally at over a third of the clubs it was sailed at, because they had no room to rig boats that way.

    Sure, sails could be better. But this should be waaaaay down on the list of priorities for the Laser class.
     
  12. glasky

    glasky Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Maybe we should just copy a local Etchels idea here in OZ and organise races like the 'Old Etchels' squadron do. Racing instructions specify that no boat or sail under the age of 5 years can be used for racing without handicap penalty. (actually they may not even count them as starters if they show up and choose to sail - not sure)

    Make builders supply all sails for official championships and insist they take them away afterwards.
     
  13. fracisco

    fracisco New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    I am curious, now. What is on the priority that is much higher than an improved sail?
     
  14. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    I have no idea what point is being made with this photo. The wrinkles in this photo are from EASING a halyard.
    [​IMG]

    EVERY other photo on this thread shows sails with wrinkles coming from STRETCHING if fabric.
    EVERY other photo shows sails that are breaking down in use.

    So, what other issues are WAY more important than advocating receiving decent product from our monopoly builders?
     
  15. HECS

    HECS New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    I'd say they are due to easing the cunningham, but the point is simple - getting a piece of cloth or film to change its shape to accomodate different winds, means that sometimes there will be excess cloth or heavily-strained cloth and they will cause wrinkles. These do not slow the boat significantly.

    It doesn't seem to me that the Laser wrinkles are from sails breaking down. Certainly the multiple world champions and World Open team sailors I talk to tell me that sails do NOT break down inside a regatta.....or two regattas. One set of wrinkles comes from the mast joint, probably unavoidable. However the others are radiating to the clew, indicating that they are overbend wrinkles which come to play in any craft where the mast is bent beyond the luff curve and have been known by some as "speed wrinkles".

    You could get rid of many of those wrinkles easily by straightening the mast and powering on cunno, but that would be slower. We've had the same sort of issues in J/24s, windsurfers.....unfortunately the boards tend to put their pics into galleries that I can't post, but the top board sails are full of wrinkles especially in the head AND they have an easier time as they don't cover the full 0-25+ of a Laser sail.

    [​IMG]

    Or go to the UK OK class site and look at the pics of the '07 Worlds; I've only seen the first two but there's masses of wrinkles on display.

    You have already written good articles and thoughts on more important things, like getting fleets moving.
     
  16. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    OK We obviously disagree on this one.
    My understanding of your position:
    You may believe the sails are quite OK and need no improvement.

    Fine for you. NOT FINE FOR ME!!!

    My position is based on so much information I could type all night. Here is some of it::
    The Laser sail is sold to a reliable market where a manufacturer can gear up to build THOUSANDS of IDENTICAL sails.

    The current Laser sail is a very simple sail to construct

    The materials used to make the Laser sail are relatively inexpensive and the price can be negotiated even lower by guaranteeing a supplier who contracts to deliver cloth the purchase of large quantities of whatever cloth is used to make the sail.

    There are other boats in the world whose sails are similar in size (material cost) and few are as simple to build ( labor).

    The currently available mass produced Laser Sail is at least as expensive as many sails built one at a time whose material and labor costs are higher than those for the Laser sail.

    I believe our mass produced sails should cost less than similar sized one offs or batch built sails...Ours are not less expensive.

    Laser sails are currently built in very efficient facilities in countries where the skilled sailmaker does not receive very many dollars for his / her time.

    Local sailmakers in the US whose cost of living and pay is much higher can build
    one at a time "illegal but better" sails for less than we can buy official mass produced Laser sails that were made by people charging very little for their labor.

    Knowing the benefits of mass production and mass distribution:

    It certainly seems reasonable to EXPECT the Laser suppliers to be able to deliver sails of a higher quality at a lower price than anyone who purchases materials and makes sail one at a time.

    I believe we are currently buying sails that are inferior to those not quite legal sails our local sailmakers easily build for a lower price than we are currently being charged for the official rags.

    I am a huge fan of the Laser racing concept. I am a measurer for a reason; protect our ONE DESIGN game.

    I do not want to have zillions of different sailmakers making many different "one off" designs for our use.

    In fact, there are 15,000 members worlwide of the ILCA who have made it clear they will continue to buy mass produced identical Laser sails.

    I will not accept being abused by those to whom I have extended my promise to buy.

    I AM going to buy another Laser sail this year. The builders can borrow money based upon their known clientele. I am one of those people upon whom the builder relies.

    I do not take kindly to being shat upon as the quid pro quo.

    I do my best to hold great regattas...I expect the builder to do its best to supply great toys.

    I did my best to run the Laser class and increased the size of the North American Boat buying group while I did that job. I expect the Laser builder to return the favor by building the very best product it can.


    Certainly, I am willing to pay a premium price for the quality control expenses necessary to guarantee that all Laser sails will perform equally on the racecourse.

    I believe the current "premium" is well past absurd.

    I believe the builders have become complacent about quality and greedy about profit and are charging the premium price while failing to provide the premium service.

    Last: Reasonableness:

    Is it possible to make sails Like Fred wants?


    I believe so.


    In the early 1990s Haarstick was building Laser sails in North America. The sails were generally competitive FOR ME for as long as two years of MY use. The recent switch from 3.2 oz cloth to the more durable 3.8 oz cloth had virtually removed the need for concern about sail expense.
    I finished a North American Interdistrict Championship regatta in the early 1990s in third place using a two year old sail. I know that sail was more durable than ANY sail I have owned since North began constructing Laser sails.


    When North began to make Laser sails, the cloth was noticably more plastic coating and less thread. The sails made by North were slightly bigger and the new North's sailed faster than the new Haarsticks.
    I had recently purchased a brand new Haarstick when the first North sails showed up at my Easter Regatta. The North Sails were as much as THREE INCHES larger in some directions than the Haarstick sails.

    The North Sails were slightly faster upwind and much faster downwind.
    The North sails did not last even for one season.

    I had to bag my new Haarstick and buy a new North and another and another and at least 20 more since then. I would ahve made it with 9 Haarsticks.

    Sail expense was back. Absure incomprehensible sail expense for sails that were NOT AS GOOD as the sails we had been buying for the previous years.
    The Laser customer was being screwed.

    I complained then and I have never stopped.

    WHY THE HELL CAN'T WE HAVE NORTH"S
    SIZE AND SHAPE AND WHATEVER CLOTH WAS USED BY HAARSTICK??

    Reasonable and simple? Yes!! So what is driving us to accept less?

    What is driving the builders to provide less?

    Why the hell does ANYONE DEFEND LESS????

    Finally. The Haarstick sails were made nearly two decades ago. Technology has advanced. We should have sails today with durability BETTER than the 1990 Haarsticks and shape that sails faster and the sails should be produced my more efecient factories so the cost in todays dollars should be lower..

    I will not be content with merely going back to "as good as a couple decades ago."

    MY boat repairs are better than those I did in 1990 and I EXPEXT the products I purchase with the money I earn by DOING BETTER THINGS NORE EFFECIENTLY should buy better products form others who are doing theor best to build better products.

    MY computer is a hell of a lot better than the one I had in 1990.
    MY truck is better than my 1990.

    My new Laser sail is not as durable as the Laser sail I purchased in 1990.

    What gives??

    I expect better.

    What gives??

    I expect better!!

    What gives??

    I expect Better!!

    What gives??

    I expect better!!

    Shouldn't you expect better??

    If not...Why not??

    HECS doesn't and I can live with that but ..The rest of you??

    Don't you expect better??

    Huh??

    Don't you??

    Well??

    Are we going to ask for better??

    Are we going to demand better?

    Are we going to seek alternative suoppliers for our toys abnd then leverage the builders to do better??

    Or shall we all hold hands, close our eyes and drink the Kool Aide
     
  17. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    And Finally ...
    This has to be my last entry on this thread for a while...

    [​IMG]

    Summarizing my intolerance for the crappy sails and even the throw away hulls our builders continue to produce:


    Today I am working on a J-22 Keel. I am shaping to the exact same specifications I used on the keel that won the most recent Rolex Women's Worlds...

    I shaped that championship grade keel 16 years ago. It has been actively raced for 16 seasons and it is still in such fine shape it just won a world championship..


    The difference between this keel and the 1992 keel?? Nothing anybody will recognize when it is done.

    I am using a more modern filler now and today's keel will have better durability than my 1992 products.


    I am sick and tired of gathering dollars by producing high quality durable plastic sailboat products only to spend those dollars on substandard products made by greedy charlatans who deliberatly design and build in unnecessary obsolescence.

    I know enough about sailmaking and the available materials to be POSITIVE we could be purchasing a better product and paying less for that product while still leaving plenty of profit for the suppliers in the chain.

    Somebody else's turn....

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Gov, how do you REALLY feel about this? I feel like your holding back a bit.

    *grabs popcorn....
     
  19. dougreynolds10

    dougreynolds10 Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    A- on that essay for going over on length. I completely agree with you we should at least open up the door to more manufactures so there is competition to make the most durable sail, Instead of just taking whatever north or hyde throws at us cause we have no choice.
     
  20. abenn

    abenn New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    I agree the sail should be the current top priority. I liked the idea someone else suggested that ILCA open it up to a tender process. I would think with a guaranteed market of several thousand sails per year, most sailmakers would be very interested. Esp as Gouv says they are all identical and can be mass produced.
    I suppose ILCA should just specify the design and as makers to supply say 10 samples along with the proposed sale price. Then check them out for performance and durablity.
    Are we locked in with the current suppliers though, due to ILCA granting them exclusive licenses ?
     

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