Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it was

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by gouvernail, Oct 15, 2007.

  1. scalisip

    scalisip New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    The answer on how to change this is from the bottom up, stop requiring the use of class sails at the local level, 90 % of local racing it wouldn't matter. If local areas start allowing other sails to be used it will be noticed.
    Better yet, get a few folks with some guts to show up at a districts or regionals with non class sails and go out and race, if no one protests fine, if they do, you go in and ask to have your scores withdrawn.

    We need to make this happen because the evil empire is doing everything it can to prevent this, they don't want to lose the cash cow.

    P
     
  2. Mawill

    Mawill New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    SFLaser,

    I know that there are some threads about the foils, but I think we can agree that the sail longevity/Quality issue is of larger concern to the class. But I don't think you answered my question - why does the class have time for a new board - all the measuring etc - but not a new sail - and not the redesign, just one that lasts. It seems like the class is holding something back.

    My frustration stems from the fact that I feel like a twit - I have been solidly on the side of let the class take it's course, they (we) will do what is right - I think my previous posts are all in that vain. Frankly, it seems to me that the class isn't. The way I read it, the class has spent what ever time it has for changes on new foils, and just ignored the sail issue. Now that people are really sick and tired of it, maybe North and Hyde are deciding that they are going to lose market share, maybe someone with clout in the class ranks has read these forums, for whatever reason, the class decides - hey wait, we should look at this.

    I am not a conspiracy theorist most of the time, but something doesn't smell right here. Why the delay? Why the is it next to impossible to find out that there is anything going on at all?

    I read your post stating that the class is looking into it, my question is, why so long especially in conjunction with a new board?

    Anyway, I am off to buy an Intensity Sail!
     
  3. MasterMike

    MasterMike D22

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    At the Canadian Masters this Labor Day weekend, a gentleman used a non-class sail because his normal one was shot. He did so-so the first day, then won a light air race the second day (due to skill and decisions, not the sail). He was asked to withdraw from the regatta the third day by the RC.
     
  4. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Does this really come as a surprise. Lasers are a strict one design. I would imagine he would have been asked to withdraw whatever his results, but maybe doing particularly well just drew everybody's attention to the fact that he was (technically) cheating. (Cheating sounds a bit strong but he was technically competing with equipment that meant he was not sailing a Laser under the class rules).

    Personally I agree with the Race Committee but at the same time am keen that the class investigate and act on alternative options for sails a.s.a.p. In the mean time, disagreeing with the class rules does not give you the right to just unilaterally break them.

    Ian
     
  5. fracisco

    fracisco New Member

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    Clear sail

    I want to hear more about the 'clear' sail that was used in practice at this year's master's worlds. Who has the info about that sail?
     
  6. MasterMike

    MasterMike D22

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    Re: Was the sailcloth rejected?

    I don't know anything about it, but note that it too has some wrinkles. However, it's at least as old as the Sydney Olympics, 7 years ago.
     

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  7. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Even at the 'minor league' regattas that I have sailed in, I had to fill out and sign a form which asked whether my boat was 'class legal'. Obviously, participating with a non-legal sail, after having signed the form, is a NO-NO.

    PS: Explaining the particular Canadian Masters scenario to the PRO prior to the racing and, hopefully, getting his/her approval would have been the proper course to take. Success by no means guaranteed.
     
  8. MasterMike

    MasterMike D22

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    No, the RC said their decision was that because it was a national event, they couldn't let it slide. The protest didn't happen until he had won a race, however.
     
  9. Mawill

    Mawill New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Hi Ian,

    I agree with you that this does not give him the right to use non-legal sails and the RC can boot him. But I don't want him to stop!

    The class seems to be reluctant (for one reason or the other - which I can only guess at) to move on this thing. I know that they are now starting to look into it, but I guess I've lost confidence that there are not alterior motives somewhere. I also think that the lack of any measurable progress on this is adversly affecting the very class that the associate is trying to promote.

    Until people start showing up with more durable (and cheaper) 'illegal' equipment, the class seems content to let it slide. Until members of the class start getting booted from major regattas, the class seems content to let it slide. Now that people are totally frustrated, fed up and mad, to the extent that we are willing to waste regattas like this, the class seems to be responding.

    So I say, keep up the pressure. Unfortunately, it seems like the only thing that works. Writing polite posts and asking nicely to please have a look at the issue has done nothing for over 5 years. Only now, when non class sails start showing up all over the place and the $ tap seems to be running dry, the class moves - or so it seems. In the absence of any other explanation, what/who are we to believe?

    Matt
     
  10. Mawill

    Mawill New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Hi Ian,

    I agree with you that this does not give him the right to use non-legal sails and the RC can boot him. But I don't want him to stop!

    The class seems to be reluctant (for one reason or the other - which I can only guess at) to move on this thing. I know that they are now starting to look into it, but I guess I've lost confidence that there are not alterior motives somewhere. I also think that the lack of any measurable progress on this is adversly affecting the very class that the associate is trying to promote.

    Until people start showing up with more durable (and cheaper) 'illegal' equipment, the class seems content to let it slide. Until members of the class start getting booted from major regattas, the class seems content to let it slide. Now that people are totally frustrated, fed up and mad, to the extent that we are willing to waste regattas like this, the class seems to be responding.

    So I say, keep up the pressure. Unfortunately, it seems like the only thing that works. Writing polite posts and asking nicely to please have a look at the issue has done nothing for over 5 years. Only now, when non class sails start showing up all over the place and the $ tap seems to be running dry, the class moves - or so it seems. In the absence of any other explanation, what/who are we to believe?

    Matt
     
  11. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    I don't think people turning-up at regattas with out-of-measurement gear and then being disqualified will achieve much. A Laser is a strict one-design and thus the rules are important to ensure that everybody is competing on as equal a gear basis as possible (reasonable, etc.). Maybe there should be some changes as far as sails are concerned (I think so but I am one person in a very large class). I think the fault with the incident above is that, with these cheap knock-offs people are tempted and then think they can "get away with it" and then remember what a Laser is about (strict one design) and they find the money they forked out on the knock-off is not as well spent as they would have liked (and they still quite rightly need a class legal sail).

    Maybe an alternative way to get things moving (if that is necessary) is for events to become very strict. If you are entering a Laser then it must be a Laser - which includes being "in-measurement".

    I don't know how much running a Laser and going to regattas costs in the US, but for me, by the time I have paid insurance, petrol, accommodation, replacing bits (sailing gear, boat bits, etc.), membership of various organisations, annual medical, etc., etc. The cost of the sail becomes less as a proportion to total costs of the sport (and sails are more expensive in Europe). Of course I would love cheaper better ones that last longer. Same goes for my car, my MP3 player, etc.. If something can be done by the class then great. If not I still love sailing my little boat and the principle the boat runs on (strict one design).

    Ian
     
  12. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    In 1970 tires that lasted 20,000 kilkometers were quite common. Super great tires sometimes lasted 70,000 km. The blowout was a regular occurence and every driver training program spent time teaching drivers how to handle the blowout. Traveling at 160 KM was suicidal as tires simply could not ahndel teh forces.

    In 2007, most tires last 50,000 kilometers and some run well past 100,000. Most drivers never experience a blowout. The only restrictions on speed today are laws and fear of enforcement.

    Also, tires have been designed to hold the road better, give a softer ride, and present less rolling resistance.

    Our archiac rules deprive our game of the virtually endless advances which have been made in the plastics industry.

    The simple fact is, Lasers used for competition at the highest levels become obsolete in about a year. The hulls become soft and the sails, which last less than a year, must be regularly replaced.

    Lasers could be built stronger, faster, cheaper, lighter, more durable, and the impact on the game we play would be minimal at worst.

    Locally, except in HECS fleet, the top sailors regularly replace their equipment and the slower sailors either use the old non competitive hand me down boats or use their lack of experience to ruin brand new boats.

    At national level regattas, boats with sail numbers as low as the 170,000s are already becoming rare.

    Considering a continuation of an annual introduction of about 10,000 new Lasers worldwide, a quantum leap to a faster, cheaper, stronger, more durable design, would hardly be noticed...at first.

    Then is a few years, the top sailors would begin to notice their original purchase investment was not similar to an investment in a roll of paper towells. If Lasers were built with 1975 technology instead of 1960 technology, Lasers might last ten years as competitive boats.

    If Lasers were built with 2007 plastics technolpogy, our toys might last forever.

    Think of it, in 2020 there would be 100,000 competitive Lasers ...

    What a game we could play!!!

    Or we can just continue building with throw away technology...

    for a while.

    Someday, somebody will see the huge opportunity and take a shot at our waiting market.

    That new well designed and built sailboat might kill Laser racing.
    Of course the new boat would need time to devdelop a fleet.

    The only difference would be, the Laser builders could instantly start the new modern single handed game...if they had the foresight to do so.

    Appropriate sounds>>>http://new.wavlist.com/soundfx/014/cricket-1.wav
     
  13. bjmoose

    bjmoose Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    OK, I just read this train wreck of a thread.

    The most visible wrinkles in the inflamatory photo that kicked off this thread are mostly a result of a two part mast with differing bend characteristics at three different points (lower section, joint, upper section.) Don't take my word for it, your NA Class president pointed out the same thing twice (but no one listened.)

    If you want a prettier sail, you need a prettier mast.

    Overstretched leech is a bit of a different bag.

    But leech cords are a two edged sword -- they take out the flutter, but they can easily cup the leech in a most unpleasant way. Maybe being able to apply "just a touch" of leech cord would prevent the initial flutter that then exacerbates the "stretched out leech" problem. But since the cord's going to have differing stretch characteristics from the leech of the sail itself, it's going to be very difficult to get the right setting at the dock while rigging. And since it's going to be very difficult (impossible?) to adjust the thing while looking at the sail underway and as conditions change, I'm a bit skeptical that a leech cord is usable to good effect on the Laser.

    I'm afraid to address that you'll need a different cut, material, and construction of sail, and as Tracy points out, it's going to be difficult to drum up the level of support across the class required for that. The price *will* go up, and you'll be faced with asking *everyone* in the class to pony up $750 US for a new and different sail -- and it will *still* wrinkle in an ugly fashion right out of the box, because it's hung on that same two-part mast. So how well is that proposed change going to go over with the rank and file class member who has been using the same sail for the last 3 years?

    Finally I disagree totally with the premise that showing up to a regatta with a non-class legal sail in a deliberate effort to get kicked out and draw attention to the issue is the way to force change. This type of move is bound to generate bad blood and lasting anger on both sides of the issue, and works against the class in the long run.
     
  14. dougreynolds10

    dougreynolds10 Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    we dont need complete sail change we just need durability, heavier cloth and a new clew, nothing that high tech and it should be cheaper because we would be using a more common cloth.
     
  15. Overdraft

    Overdraft New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    this thread sounds hauntingly familiar, but i'll dive in again cuz it irks me when people lose sight of the objectives...

    1. one design racing is cool cuz it means that money doesn't (necessarily) win.
    2. laser sails in their current spec are uncompetitive in a very short period of time.
    3. modern technological advances in sail materials should be able to yield an identical shape (and therefore speed) sail that lasts very well for no more cost than the current spec sail.
    4. if we fail to embrace new materials and technology and provide a sail that lasts, we give an UNFAIR advantage to people who can afford to buy a new sail for EACH regatta... SEE #1.

    i think this thread was more leaning towards discussing a 'better' sail, but i'd settle for the same comprimise shape if only it didn't just keep getting worse with each use! i agree that the rig may limit how well setting a sail could be created, however if we at least tried then we could say: yes, we can make a faster sail. do we want to adopt it? no, we can't make a faster sail, but we can make a longer lasting one. do we want to adopt it?
     
  16. almineev

    almineev New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    I think this is a brilliant point! Weak sail is a clear violation of the "money don't win" principle.
     
  17. bjmoose

    bjmoose Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    For the record, I'd support an "incompatible version change" to a different cut, with cloth and mylar composition (or all mylar?) to get a more durable sail. Upgrade to Laser Sail 3.0! Laser Sail 2.0 has limited backward compatibility -- it still works on your existing boat, but won't be supported in any new regattas! ;-)

    I'm convinced that I'm in the minority on this, aside from a couple rabble rousers on this thread.

    That type of change requires sailors to shell out for a new sail. Most guys I sail with are actually quite happy with their 3,4,5 year old laser sails. Some of them are happy that the "fast" guys are turning around their sails once or twice a season, because those same guys then sell their "used' sails for $150 to $250.
     
  18. Josef

    Josef New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Don't need mylar to get a durable sail, rather the opposite when it comes to boats this small.
     
  19. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Regarding the leech cord - it's a question of picking the correct material for the job to avoid having the leech cup or hook. Adjustable cords are easy to implement, either mid foot or at the clew, obviously at the clew keeps the cost lower, and would help if the class decides that the cord should not be adjusted while racing (though I'm not sure why that rule would be needed)

    There are other ways to help stop the leech flapping besides a leech cord too, for example a little more hollow between the battens in addition to a wider leech tabling.

    Can anyone comment on the competitive life of the radial sail compared to the full rig ?

    If the Radial sail is considered to have a longer competitive life, (and doesn't suffer from as many of the issues as the full rig sail) then changing the panel layout on the full rig and using the same cloth as the radial should be considered too. I know that's more radical (pun intended) then trying bigger patches and possibly a different cloth for the crosscut sail, but if it turns out a sail that will last longer then a "new & improved" crosscut sail, it should be considered.. Costs shouldn't be that different, perhaps even a little less as Contender and North would only have to stock one cloth style w/ one finish.
     
  20. dougreynolds10

    dougreynolds10 Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    has the class made any advances towards a new sail in the last 15 days?
     

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