Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it was

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by gouvernail, Oct 15, 2007.

  1. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Those changes sound reasonable - better patches and looking at/moving the specs would make for a longer lasting sail - the performance may change slightly.

    My guess is if they spent some time working on panel alignment and (possibly a lower stretch window material) in the lower sections, they could clean up the problems you see just aft of the window with stretch and wrinkles.. Tradeoff might be more cloth wastage.

    Forcing both sailmakers to use a single sailcloth supplier is an interesting proposal - was the reason it never happened before because the ILCA didn't want to run into a situation where the cloth supplier decided to stop weaving that style (or jacked up his prices since he was the sole supplier ?)
     
  2. Horizon

    Horizon Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Reading through this thread brings lots of questions to mind, that would be helpful if someone was able to answer for those like me who are less knowledgeable in these matters:

    In no particular order then:

    What is it that causes the current 3.8oz sail to be not very durable? Is it that we use extreme rig controls, especially the cunningham to depower the sail, and has this has got worse over the 21 years since the 3.8 was introduced? I remember that when the 3.8oz came out, the top sailors would set up their boats for hours on shore with a new sail with the cunnningham on full to stretch it and make easier to adjust.

    Or are you saying that the sailcloth now used for the 3.8oz sail is less durable than that used when it was introduced in 1986 to replace the 3.2oz sail?

    I thought that the cloth specifications for Laser sails were supposed to be very tight, much tighter than used in most other sails. One of the reasons given for the change to 3.8oz sails was that only Lasers used 3.2oz cloth and were being asked to take it whether or not it was in spec. Is this a case of "deja vu"?

    Would a heavier cloth solve these problems or does the whole sail need a recut / redesign so that it looks good first time up and stays that way for a reasonable length of time.

    What is/would be considered to be an acceptable life for a sail?

    How long do the alternative non-legal sails such as those from Intensity, Rooster etc that are made from slightly heavier cloth last, compared to a legal sail? (Ignoring pricing here). Do those sails look any better? From other threads about Intensity sails, they don't seem to have any performance advantage.

    If a heavier cloth was used, would that increase the ideal weight of the sailor as it would be harder to depower, as with the change from 3.2 to 3.8?

    How does a leech cord work? Is it adjustable whilst sailing? Would it increase the cost of the sail!!? How would it improve the durability of the sail.

    What was the 1998 project about and how come these things never seem to be discussed in either official ILCA publications like Laser World or get mentioned in the UK? (As an aside for example, but I don't think there has been any mention of the new foils available in Australia either nor much (anything?) about carbon top sections since the vote a number of years ago rejected them! You just have to read the Laser Forum to find out about these things!)

    Tracy mentioned matching the top section to the bottom, but isn't it time we got a better method of joining the two, rather than the plastic collar that breaks at the rivet and that we are now supposed to be voting in a new rule to allow taping the top section just so the rivet stays at the back.

    www.laserinternational.org/rules2007/

    It looks like Laser (PSE) already make Laser sails for greater durability for holiday companies with reinforced batten pockets and possibly other refinements that could help the longetivity of the sail. The sail patch looks to say "Laser 3.8 New Numbers" but I wouldn't like to swear to it. Is there anybody out there who has been to a Sunsail Club and is sufficiently knowledgeable to say whether these sails offer any difference in life of the sail or performance.

    Finally, perhaps I need to look more closely, but what is wrong with the coloured sail in Gouvernail's picture?

    Any chance of a return of coloured sails? The four Worlds that used them were certainly the most photogenic, but asking here the sailors that attended some of those, were there any complaints about the use of coloured rather than white sails (ARoy and Gouvernail)?
     

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  3. aroy

    aroy New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    In response to a couple of your Q's:

    Leech cord would not be adjustable while sailing, although I imagine the cleat could be led along the foot somewhere so it could be adjusted, say, before or between races. It would certainly add some cost.

    I sailed in the 79, 80, 82, 83 Worlds, and each one used a colored sail (or a few panels). I don't recall if the sails were any different to the standard, and I don't think anyone worried about it since we all had the same thing.

    You mention the Aussie blades. I believe this is an issue. A few of us were looking them over at the recent Masters Worlds, and we invited the ILCA Chief Measurer over to explain how they can be legal. They are made with some kind of hot poured liquid/curing process, and are undoubtably stiffer than the standard blades (see: http://www.lasersailing.com.au/race_parts.html#). The trailing edges of these babies are unlikely to warp like we see with the white blades. The measurer told us they have almost completed testing of these Aussie blades (somewhere in the UK). What is curious is how they've been deemed legal before completion of testing/examination.

    Strange things do indeed take place in this class. It takes a year of meetings and voting to allow simple things like the centreboard shock cord to be wrapped around the bow, or to allow use of duct tape to hold down the bailer pin, yet people show up at a Masters Worlds with high tech blades (?).
     
  4. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    I don't think opening up the Laser to class to multiple sail vendors would be the death of one design. In fact, it's about the only class I can think of with such a restrictive rule (though I'm sure there are others). Doesn't even the Flying Scot class have multiple vendors?
     
  5. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it


    Moving a shock cord's location does not provide profit for any builders.

    The builders do have an obligation to their families and investors to make an effort to be prosperous.

    my experieces at the Laser worlds are the same as Andy's except for my number of appearances and location in the fleet. Everybody is smart enough to know equal is equal. Also mostly all the competitors are happy to be there and not in a mood to whine and complain.

    My complaint about the current laser sails is not related to equality.


    My complaint relates to teh entire definition of what is legal.

    Currently, our class rules and the builder manual describe a sail that is made from materials which wewre readily available and CHEAP when the specs were written.

    Today the specs require sailmakers to use obsolete materials and to assemble those materials in an archiac fashion.

    Translation> WE require them to buy expensive garbage and assemble it stupidly.

    The builders control the design and control the contracts with sailmakers.

    Unless we figure out a way to convince the builders ir they decide themselves it would be more profitable to supply modern sails...They cannot consider it. They will not do it.
     
  6. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    For the sail situation to change who needs to do what ?

    Do we just continue to post dissatisfaction until somebody in some committee picks up the idea (which might be happening already but can we speed it up) ? Does somebody (class member rather than on a committee) get a load of signatures for a rule change ? Does somebody have to persuade a reputable sailmaker to come up with a proposal to the class ?, etc.

    The issue regularly comes up and generally there is a reasonable agreement that things could be changed for the better. Maybe if there were something people could actually do to progress this.

    Ian
     
  7. Debos

    Debos New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Well there you have it.

    The Gov hit the nail on the head

    The cloth specs, as well as design and construction requirements needs to be redesigned.

    Put a committee together, a couple of class member sail makers, as well as some designers from Hyde/North, and come up with something that would work, to allow durability and reasonable cost.

    $600 for a tiny sail that is mass produced, sold with virtually no marketing cost, and that last only a few races, is completely outrageous.
     
  8. dougreynolds10

    dougreynolds10 Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    could we start a thread and make it like a petition to change the sail and get as many signatures as possible on the thread. the first post would be what the petition is for (redesigning the sail) and then below that who ever is for it just types their name and email address (signature).
     
  9. 663

    663 Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    How about Hyde/North just copy the Intensity sail...

    Or, the class could sell Intensity Sails, red royalty buttons for $400 and the class would make some money and we could have racing sails that have a decent amount of resin in them and sails that last more than one day.
     
  10. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    The North American Region Chairman (Tracy Usher, aka SFBayLaser) posted that ILCA already has this issue on the agenda. Therefore, we need his input whether an E-mail writing campaign will serve any purpose (other than venting frustrations). ILCA has a process (whether we like it or not) that is slow, but changes have taken place from time to time. For instance, the radials went from Mark V to Mark VI sails a few years ago. Therefore, change does happen. That was before my time as a Laser sailor, but maybe others can fill in some detail(s).

    BTW, Tracy also serves as the Technical and Measurement Chair on the World Council.
     
  11. Laser of the Corn

    Laser of the Corn Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it


    OK so it's on the agenda to be discussed amongst the world council, obviously the "powers that be" either see or sense a problem and are trying to address the situation.

    When will be that we (the Laser class) are made aware/asked for input regarding any possible change? I'm sure this process is going to be a slow one just like it was getting the 2001 upgrades done. What was that a 3 year process?
     
  12. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Is it the case that; when a committee who decide to investigate something they do it "because it seems like a good idea". Quite valid reason to look into something, see if there could be improvements, implications of change, etc.. It can all be a bit like an academic exercise with little pressure to report or progress changes with any urgency or time-scales. (Not being critical here but sometimes I wonder if I should decorate the spare bedroom, costs, implications, etc. and I can reflect on the decision for many months or even years if I try hard enough). Would the committee investigating be a bit more motivated or more receptive to the concept of change if they felt there was a strong feeling within the class that it would be ready for or even keen on having a vote on a change.


    One Idea
    No idea if its ever been done but when the class (International Class that is) has a vote on a change (i.e. the adopt it or reject it vote), might it be an idea to also allow a "how do you feel about ..." vote as well. Sort of allow the various committees to get a decent appreciation for how the class feels about issues. Thus, with the current vote maybe a "How do you feel about carbon masts for the Radial ? and "How do you feel about broadening the options for Laser sails ?" Maybe with options being "Sounds very interesting", "Depends on what is proposed" and "What is available is fine". Nothing binding but it would allow committees to recognise if they were investigating a complete non-starter or something people really wanted a.s.a.p.


    Just a thought
    Ian
     
  13. powergroove

    powergroove Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    I dont want to start anymore contoversy, but why not have local (North American) chapters that vote independently? We dont all sail in International events, and even the ones that do, how frequently? My question is basically, why cant we vote for ourselves?
     
  14. Mawill

    Mawill New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    SFLaser, as the technical measurer dude and the NA class head mukety muck, please explain how NON LEGAL blade are allowed and more importantly, how the laser class whihch I pay for, has spent time and effort with new blade, while ignoring the sail issue - which goes back a long way - you can see post on this site alone back in 2004!!!

    This does somewhat leave me shaking my head and asking myself - why all the time and effort on a new blade (I know the current ones are not awesome - but unless you drop it or leave it in a hot car, they are ok) whilst pretty much ignoring the members of the class about the sail quality issue.

    I don't see too many threads about blades, but I see a hell of a lot about the sail quality issue.

    frustrating!

    Matt
     
  15. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    As I said before, what is "on the agenda" right now is to look at what could be done to make the sail more durable while not changing its performance characteristics. So, same sail but, hopefully, with a longer competitive lifetime (and, I'm sure, with the side benefit of looking much prettier in the pictures). If people are happy with that then, no, I don't think you need to do an email campaign of support. That message has already been communicated.

    On the other hand, if what people are asking for is a new sail design, then that is a different kettle of fish. First, of course, you need to decide what you mean by "new sail"... and if you are designing a new sail then probably you also want a new rig and are thinking of something like in 49208's post... etc., etc. Then you need to rally the membership to send that message up to ILCA that this is what it wants.

    Personally, I think you will find that the bulk of the membership wants to see the same sail made more durable (changing the game as little as possible right now) or at least this is what has been communicated to ILCA so far. I don't think you will find much support for a new sail design at the current time (with all due respect to certain TLF posters).
     
  16. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it


    Blades are "builder supplied" and the Laser Construction Manual, apparently, has always allowed the "GRP" process to be used along with the "PU" process for constructing them. If the builder can demonstrate that his "GRP" foils are reproducing the dimensions (including foil shape) AND characteristics (e.g. bend) AND gets all the parties to sign off (builders, Bruce Kirby, ILCA, ISAF, etc.), then they are "legal".

    The GRP foils have actually been floating around for quite some time now with the first versions appearing, as I remember, back in 2003. PSA took on this project because there was concern that there was only one supplier of blades (Crompton) and there was a feeling of genuine need for a second supplier in the event "something happened" to the single source (a good reason to have two sail suppliers too!). And... if you search I think you can find several threads on them here at TLF.
     
  17. dougreynolds10

    dougreynolds10 Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    what about the issue of having more sail suppliers, it would encourage the sail makers to try and make a higher quality sail for cheaper. as you can see in my profile picture i dont use a sail that matches my boat i use a elvstrum sail from boat number 11827 because it is not economical for me to use my new north sail unless its a race
     
  18. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Having more sailmakers will not do what want (less expensive/more durable)

    The sailmakers are given very tight parameters to build the class legal sail (from the LCM, I think). Those parameters produce the sail we have today. In order to get a more durable sail, the LCM has to be changed, not adding more sail suppliers.

    On the cost side, again, adding more sailmakers would have zero effect on the price you and I pay. The price you and I pay is whatever the builder (PSE) decides to charge us. This has been covered in good detail in other threads, worth the time to read if you aren't familiar with how many price markups the sail goes thru. So, while I doubt we'd ever see a price drop, if the durability issue were addressed, we could end up with a much longer lasting sail for about the same price which is means the same thing over a longer time period - less money leaving your wallet for sails
     
  19. powergroove

    powergroove Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    are'nt Intensity sails cheaper? The thread below this one asks are they faster? Maybe there will be a "cost war". If as many sails as you say are sold per year, and more sailmakers are making them, then it could happen. On the other hand, if the sailmakers are free to make different designs under some class regulated specs, than sails may become more expensive. either way, we WIN! Better quality, possibly cheaper price!
     
  20. dougreynolds10

    dougreynolds10 Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    I'm not saying they would produce different designs, but right now if you get a north sail the chances are theres going to be theres going to be bad stitching, excess glue on seems and its not going to be put together that well. I'm just saying they would be forced to tighten up on quality control if theres other sail makers to buy for making it a more competitive market. the sail makers would be forced to pick up the slack if it was a more competitive market.
     

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