Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it was

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by gouvernail, Oct 15, 2007.

  1. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Look at this garbage!!!

    [​IMG]
     
  2. stick

    stick Member

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    Re: 4 Year Old Sails For US Trials??

    i don't get your point. if all the competitors start with the same sail, regardless of age, mfg, style, it's a level field. right?
     
  3. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Re: 4 Year Old Sails For US Trials??

    Guessing, but I think the point is why do we accept the status quo as far as the sail, material etc.. These are brand new sails that look pretty bad - yes, they all look equally bad so it's level, but we could also have a level field with sails that look/perform better and last longer.
     
  4. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Sailcloth too soft and stretchy for women's undies?


    At least one person gets it.

    The photo says the thousand words.

    The folks who make Laser sails have guys like Stick so conditioned to shoddy garbage, they can send sails that wrinkle and stretch to the US Olympic Trials and be defended for making equal garbage.

    Look at those rags. What was the material used in construction?

    Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it was too soft and stretchy to make women's undies?

    If Laser sailors had any self esteem what so ever, they would form a Laser Class Association.
    Standards of materials, shape, size, and durabliltiy would be written by the Laser Class Association for sails used in the game of Laser sailing. .

    Once instituted, no supplier would EVER be able to EVER sell another Laser Class Approved sail like those in the photo without losing the rights to EVER supply another "class approved" sail.

    LOOK AT THOSE WRINKLES!!
    Those sails wre used by the very best sailors for one regatta. Those best sailors needed to go fast. There is no way any of the sails in the pictures were abused by incompetent sailors. Those sails were babied by our very most talented sailors....
    and ruined in a week!

    WHAT WILL SAILS SIMILAR TO THOSE RAGS LOOK LIKE IN ONE YEAR??

    Our supplier has already told us ALL the sails are produced inside the same standards.

    Certainly our supplier did not select the very worst trash that still meets the standards and send the worst to the US Olympic Trials.

    My guess? The supplier may have carefully inspected these rags and found them to be the best available.

    In North America we spent a MILLION DOLLARS this year for 1200 SAILS our builders tell us were built with the same set of quality control standards as those wrinkly embarassments to the world of modern technology.

    favorite excuses:

    1. They are the only legal sails for Laser racing.

    2. The game would die if we allowed anybody to make any sail he wishes and sell it to us.


    I don't know. Maybe Laser sailing would die if we all demanded a quality durable product.

    Maybe we better not rock the boat or stir the pot. Laser sailing is the world's most successful singlehanded sailing game.

    I do not believe anybody has a valid count of the following group.

    How many people simply refuse to spend $600 on a piece of crap sail and therefore quit or never bother to join a fleet whose rules require the use of substandard equipment?

    How many people looked at that Laser Trials photo and said, "THERE is the PRECISE reason I will not buy a new Laser sail."?

    Why do we self impose these restrictions upon ourselves???

    Is this the best we are willing to have?

    I am so damn programmed, I WILL be buying another new Laser sail this winter. I am that insane.

    In fact, I suspect I just might end up with a sail that was not GOOD ENOUGH for the US Trials and simply shipped to a small dealer in a desert state..

    What about you people with brains?? What is your excuse?

    WHY?????
     
  5. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Nice scream Gouv, but what can be done?

    Since this was a US event, the appropriate officials from the North American Region should consider the issue. They could follow up by registering a complaint with either Vanguard or North. Or take the issue to the ILCA (in England).

    By gently ;) pointing out that substitutes exist (Hyde), some teeth could be put into addressing the problem. Moreover, it can be pointed out that such sails are NOT good advertising for North (or the Class).

    PS: I assume that the sails used at the trials were from North, not Hyde.

    PS #2: I was hoping to buy a new North sail this winter, but now I am reluctant to do so

    PS #3: Clearly an issue for Ross to pick up once he gets elected :) ....
     
  6. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    It is interesting how taking a picture of a Laser sail in breeze freezes and displays all of the sail's flaws. Here is a (not so good) picture taken at the Laser PCC's in Santa Cruz in 1996... (can it really have been more than ten years ago?!?!?) and at least one of these sails is a Hyde sail!
    [​IMG]

    A lot of the "problem" with the sail results from the leech fluttering and the ripples in the sail get captured in the photograph. As a sailor, we tend to see the leech flutter and not really notice the rest of it. So... the sail might actually look ok to us on the boat.

    Here is a picture from the Master Worlds in Roses taken on a light air day. The Canadian sail is a North, I'm pretty sure...

    [​IMG]
     

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  7. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    Re: Sailcloth too soft and stretchy for women's undies?

    Are you mainly referring to the diagonal wrinkles?

    Or those resulting from the leech flutter?

    Or those from having to use too much cunningham to fix the diagonal wrinkles?

    Or??
     
  8. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    OK ....I love starting on line brawls as much as anybody but, Bradley helped fire the flames by editing the title for this thread.

    And I approve!!

    The sails in the photo I posted are just Laser sails as Laser sails look.

    If you take a similar photo of a group of Thistles, Lightnings, Snipes, or any other one design boat where capitalistic competition is allowed among suppliers, the sails on boats sailed by the top competitors will not look wrinkled and stretched .

    Laser sails could be made to look pretty.

    I don't even care if the sails would all be less effective if the leeches didn't flutter and the things looked smooth and like a wing should look.

    In any other class, All I need to know about setting a sail is, "Make it look pretty." A pretty sail generally has better wind flow than an ugly wrinkled sail and the sailmakers carefully design the sails so we can adjust the draft for various conditions by simply REMOVING the wrinkles caused by the wind, mast bend and control lines.

    If I hung up a new sail from ANY sailmaker and it set up as crappy as a brand new Laser sail, I would take it back to the sailmaker immediately. IN FACT, I would do my best not to let ANYBODY else see the sail before I gave the sailmaker the opportunity to see his HUGE mistake.
    The fact is. NOBODY in the sai making business builds anything remotely as horribly wrinkled, fluttering and shortlived as a Laser sail except..The OFFICIAL APPROVED Laser sail suppliers.

    Only in Lasers .

    We lemmings tolerate it.

    I tolerate it.

    I am about to purchase another damn new stretchy ugly temporary sail.

    We should ORGANIZE and do something about it.

    Currently Laser sailors are NOT organized.

    Of the 80,000 Laser owners in North America we have a few people worrying about oganizational pedanticies and a builder supported advertiser supplemented professional scheduling and publications team.

    Nobody involved in the NA Laser Class Organizatrion DARES tro say ANYTHING which could be taken as unsupportive by our builder.

    I know why. When I was the NA Secretary I shut my pie hole and took the annual $30,000 from Vanguard and used it to spread the word about Laser sailing. I sold out. I justified it with some self centered bullcrap about the general good of the game.

    I finally broke down and let my morals surface and it cost me my job as secretary.
    When I griped about another new totally incompatible drain plug, I was accused of "hijacking the newsletter" and Vanguard withheld $15,000 in advertising and new boat membership fees until the day after I was gone from the secretary job.

    My successors know the lesson well. Shut up. Be a lemming. Receive $$$. In fact my successors made certain they stayed in good favor with Vanguard by refusing to pay any of the $20,000 odd funds I was still owed under the class' management contract with me.
    I understand, The NA Class as we know it would die without Vanguard's support.
    ( Of course, that might force the sailors wo actually form a class of their own but I rant and digress)

    refocusing:

    The NA Laser Class is simply an extension of our builder's advertising department.

    There is no owner driven and controlled consumer advocacy organization and none of us complacent lazy bums is about to start one.


    I love to race singlehanded sailboats and the best available game is played in Lasers.


    So I will buy another piece of crap this winter and play with it for a few weeks...Then buy another one when I want to play more.

    Spending a few hundred bucks beats spending thousands to maybe or maybe not do something about it.

    Meanwhile...
    Once in a while I cannot resist pointing out to myself and others how damn easy it is to keep us pigs face down in the feed trough.

    Love and kisses to ya all. I need to get back to work
     
  9. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Re: Sailcloth too soft and stretchy for women's undies?

    NO to all of the above!!!
    Something pulled toward the back corner of the sail with a force which exceeded the toleration of the material. The material has stretched and big wrinkles are radiating from the clew.
    Decent sails have clew patches designed to prevent such stretching and generally stretch marks like the ones shown do not show up for years...not hours.

    Look again>>>
    [​IMG]
     
  10. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Silly me, I thought this was going to be an incredibly timely, and therefore really useful, thread on what might be done to improve the durability of a Laser sail without compromising its current performance. Timely because it turns out that in Roses the ILCA Technical and Measurement Committee met with the builders where a major topic was just this (and, interestingly, it may be that we have arrived at a moment in time - due to a number of factors - where something might actually get done about it). Useful because maybe there was something overlooked in the brainstorming of things that could be done to make a more durable sail which we could try to add to the list.

    Sorry to have stumbled into a brawl.

    Carry on!
     
  11. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Any chance to list what was already brainstormed ? Just so we don't spend a lot of time throwing out ideas that are already on the table.
     
  12. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    Re: Sailcloth too soft and stretchy for women's undies?


    Nobody is arguing that there are not problems with the current sails, see my previous post.

    But... we all know that those large diagonal wrinkles are the result of a single size sleeve on the sail interacting with the mast collar and then the smaller outer diameter top mast. And if the bend characteristics of the top mast are not matched to the lower it can be made even worse. Look in that picture closely and you can see a discontinuity at the mast joint.
     
  13. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    From my memory, ideas on the table included better patches at each of the corners, using a better adhesive for gluing the seems together before sewing, investigating a leech cord, investigating the material specs, reinforcing the batten pockets, etc.

    The goal is to improve the durability of the sail without changing its performance. This is not a Laser 2050 project, this is what can be done to improve the problems everyone recognizes with the current sails.

    Several of the ideas are leftover from the 1998 project to do the same (e.g. the leech cord). I don't know why nothing was done back then...
     
  14. halibut

    halibut New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Well, we can always count on Fred to get a lively discussion going :) thanks Fred!

    If you put aside strong feelings about the state of affairs and look objectively, truthfully we all have gripes about different aspects of the manufacture of the Laser. Let's not even start talking (again) about the cheezy plastic blocks that cost more than a Harken ball bearing equivalent.

    Certainly the Laser sail is an area where much improvement could be made. If in fact a dialog has started towards that end it should be encouraged. It should also be an open process that can be followed and commented on by the class members. Technology has advanced a long ways since that sail was developed, and the class should be pushing the sailmakers for an improved product.

    Tracey, can you provide any additional details as to what transpired at the Worlds with regards to this topic?

    thanks, Mike S
     
  15. aroy

    aroy New Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Tracy, That's me in 187740 and it's actually a Hyde sail I'm using (first time I've used a Hyde). From what I understand, Hyde uses Contender cloth which (IMHO) is superior (firmer) to North's in-house cloth. This is obvious in a side by side "feel" comparison. Unless both companies start using the same cloth, I will only buy Hyde from now on.
     
  16. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Gouvernail states in his later posts, I think, that these sails were within standards as prescribed by ILCA. From his first post, I got the impression that these sails were due to faulty quality control at the North loft in Sri Lanka. It's important for this discussion (brawl :eek:) to be sure about what we are writing about. Please clarify.

    I admit to know very little about the art/science/technology of sailmaking. Therefore, I am dependent upon the knowledge of Gouvernail, SFBayLaser and others, in helping me, and presumably other less informed souls, to make up our minds about what course of action to take.

    In summary, are these sad looking sails due to poor quality control at North or are they within ILCA standards?
     
  17. 663

    663 Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    I was astonished as to how quickly and how bad the sails looked at the end of the Trials from one sailing with them, not to mention the end of the first day. The change in the whole leech was amazing to see over the period of 9 consecutive days of racing.

    Yes, they were North built.

    The upper leach was the first to dump off, then the mid and lower leech. I wish I could have taken a photo from on the boat.

    Come to think of it, everyone in the qualifier was complaining they just ruined their new sails after one day of sailing in breeze.

    The cloth spec's need to be addressed!

    I hope they give out a second new sail, with these boats...
     
  18. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    Once again, Tracy, I'm sorry I have once again made life more difficult for you..

    If you did a search on this forum you would find a long list of those apologies...

    I meant every one of them.


    Briefly.

    having said it before...

    I think the Laser and its rigging and sails could be made much more durable and for a lower price if we would accept a one time step up improvement in the equipment.

    We have done this many times before. T
    The game evolved from wood to fiberglass boards.
    The game evolved from fiberglass to foam boards.
    The game evolved from 3.2 sails to 3.8 sails
    The game evolved from durable Haarstick sails to the larger North Sails
    The game evolved from having metal gudgeons to plastic gudgeons.

    The game has survived becuase the changes were good for the game.

    In each case the improvements made the old equipment obsolete.

    It is way past time for new sails built to last and last and last.

    So what if the old sails are obsolete?? We can simply place our old sails on the shelf next to our old ones that look like this>>>
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Laser of the Corn

    Laser of the Corn Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    There is no reason the Contender Dacron being used right now can't be made to better handle the loads of Laser sails. As has been mentioned previously in the thread, a head patch and clew patch would go a long way toward eliminating the stretch factor. It also wouldn't be very tough to make a "harder" leech to eliminate the flutter. You could do this with a leach cord but it could distort the desired sailing shape of the leach if pulled.

    A good example to look at for head and clew patches to distribute high loads better would be in the MC Scow sail (yes I realize they are a stayed boat). That class has a very bendy mast and when looked at from behind the profile of the MC and Laser are very similar. Perhaps some building techniques could be taken from there.

    I have to agree with Gouvernail on this whole heartedly. I raced on sunday with a sail that was used in 3 regattas last year and hasn't been used since. It was a complete disgrace, had it not been the only sail I had available at the time, I would not have put it up. The leach fluttered so hard it was deafening, I had to crank on the cunningham just to pull out the wrinkles at the luff and the draft was still way back. It was a truly nauseating experience to sail with something that looked like that.

    Dan
     
  20. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Re: Was the sailcloth actually rejected by the Victoria's Secret supplier because it

    I would be very interested to hear more about what the technical people are considering. Whilst I am very keen on Lasers remaining a strict one-design, sail do wear out and need replacing. Thus and new (even better) sail would probably have an overlap old/new in same fleets for a relatively short time. Sails wear out quicker than e.g. Vangs or Cunninghams. I thus think it an aspect that could be changed without too much disruption to the one-design principal.

    Ian
     

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