Vanguard is No More

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by TheBoathouse, Jan 8, 2008.

  1. Groover

    Groover New Member

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    I remember reading in some minutes of the class association that Vanguard would no longer be providing a monetary sponsorship of the Laser class beginning this year. Can someone confirm this? I personally feel this is lame considering we are required to buy boats, parts and sails from them. If they can't support the class, why should the class have to support them? I hope under the new organization, this stance will change.
     
  2. sailchris

    sailchris Member

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    If what you say is correct, then I think a better argument would be that if Vanguard/LaserPerformance is not providing money to the class, then they had better show the class why we should continue to designate them as the exclusive builder/sailmaker.
     
  3. Groover

    Groover New Member

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    Here are the comments I was referring to in the earlier post. This excerpt is from the 2007 Annual General Meeting minutes posted on the ILCA-NA website.

    Ned Jones from Vanguard/PSE gave a report summarizing the recent acquisition of Vanguard by Gavel Securities Limited. He sees this as a positive step for Vanguard and expects that the impact to ILCA-NA will be good. Derek Stowe asked for comment on the status of the financial support by Vanguard to ILCA-NA. Jones commented that Vanguard’s intention was to decrease that support in the future and that he expected that PSE would favor the same move.
     
  4. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    I don't know if it is no money, or a greatly reduced sum. The class was negotiating this point. I don't know how it has come out.
     
  5. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    With the turn the conversation is taking, this thread belongs in Class Politics. It should have originally been posted in News.
     
  6. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    Truthfully, I don't think the class gets to designate who builds boats. The rights to the Laser design belong to a certain Canadian sailor, and he licenses the various builders to make the boat.
     
  7. GBR 134

    GBR 134 Member

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    Well I hope Ross is right - in the UK the dealer network is long gone, the manufacture of hulls is sub-contract, the parts cost in GBP what you pay in dollars. Oh but they do a really nice stand at the London Boatshow!

    Ross may become more cynical as he lives longer!
     
  8. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    It would be surprising if the PSE do not start moving towards the same model they use in Europe (as GBR 134 says, no dealer network and higher prices, etc.). Of course they are not going to announce that now (can you imagine what would happen if they did). I suspect it will be a gradual change over time. Erosion of dealer margins (so dealers hold lower or no stocks), maybe some/more direct sales. Nothing immediate and sudden and probably nothing attributable to the change in ownership with loads of excuses (e.g. to service customers better, increase in costs of raw materials).

    It is a common tendency in Europe that when a company takes over another it then does have control of what happens, business as usual is not the aim of the game. Many take-overs where the existing company is left to just "get on with their lives" ends-up if failure to the detriment of everybody.

    Ian
     
  9. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Regarding the dealer network - While it's nice to be able to drive for 30-90 minutes to be able to look over stock, is it really nec to go to the dealer in person for anything other then perhaps picking up a new boat or spar ?

    How far do you guys in the UK have to drive to pick up a new boat ? I can't see the same model working the US or Canada due to the diff in physical size between the those wo countries and the UK. I could see perhaps a couple warehouses being setup. But even then you could be looking at a 10 hour drive to pick up a new boat..
     
  10. GBR 134

    GBR 134 Member

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    We have one distribution centre roughly in the middle of the country so if you live in Devon or the North of Scotland it's a long haul. You can order at the show etc and probably by phone or online and they will arrange delivery. I don't know the cost but when I got a new hull via insurance (lovely jubbly) the delivery cost (by specialist dinghy transporter) was £250 if I wanted it NOW! or £150 if I waited 'till they were next coming my way.

    Obviously I couldn't wait even the 3 days for delivery NOW so took a 7 hour round trip the minute it was ready!
     
  11. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Not the question but maybe relevant is France. No builder in France and its a bigger country than the UK. There are a few dealers (large or specialised). Probably around 4 (some time since I last looked though). Basically one importer and a few people selling boats and equipment. No idea about the odds and ends aspects (as I just order what I need from Paris on the internet).

    Also, prices are higher here than in the UK (maybe "more mouths to feed" so to speak).

    Ian
     
  12. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    Just out of curiosity... what would be the price of the boat if you removed the VAT?
     
  13. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    The key indicator of an American boat company that is about to begin a rapid decline and will most certainly be either out of business or losing well over 90% of its business is a foolhardy management team that decides "the dealer share" is an unnecessary part of its expenses.

    If the dealer network is disassembled, there will no longer be Lasers sold in sufficient quantities for the North American Laser Game to be played.

    If the financial support from the builder is decreased or suspended, the North American Laser class will no longer have the necesssary resources to perform its function as a promotional tool for either the builder of the product of the game played with the product.

    If the dealer network is disassembled, the dealers who understand the need for promotion and who, as a result, support the class will also cease to exist.

    If the class organization loses that 70% of its funding and is encumbered with the added burden of organizing playtimes that used to be organized by the local dealers, ....


    A lot of us may be taking up some new hobby because no one will be there to replace the 90% percent of us who give up the game within seven years of our first race.


    Conservative management by Vanguard and the NA Class has barely kept the Laser game alive for the last few years.

    I am holding out hope for the new owners of the trademark.

    I hope the owners recognize the need for some radical new clever and enthusiasticly applied promotion.

    The game has multiple great qualities and the business owner who carefully invests and fosters and serves that game could be rewarded with lucrative profits.

    If the new owners plan to just "let the Laser sell itself" while introducing new lines of boats to increase the size of the business...

    Maybe they can find the old Laser 28 molds??
     
  14. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    In France: a Laser Standard XD (new "Pro" gear, etc.) is 5505€ ex VAT (i.e. 6576€ after VAT) all excl delivery. Which is 8137 US$ (excl VAT) or 9720 US$ incl VAT

    Ian
     
  15. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    >>>>Sorry, I just saw Deimos made a reply during I wrote my answer below, so his and my answers are double in several points ov view ...<<<<

    Tracy,
    A Laser Standard (G-XD) at France does cost (at the list) 6576 Euro incl 19,6% VAT (at the Laserdealer at Paris).
    The VAT of GB is 17.5% (I can't find the list-price of UK Lasers in the moment).
    VAT at GER is 19%, here a Laser Std. G-XD does cost (at the list) 6450 Euro incl.VAT.

    Paris (like Lndon or Berlin) is a really expensive pavement, everyone knows that here... I wouldn't compare prices between the continents. To many aspects have invluence for an objective comparing, not only the naked price of the Laser.

    BTW:Only one product is able to be compared worldwide ~objective. It's the simple MacDonalds Hamburger. Therfore one knows the famous "Hamburger-Index" in the economics, but this does not belong tho the toppic of this thread....

    Ciao
    LooserLu


    P.S. If one is not happy with the new boats of LaserPerformance-USA, I would advise to switch to "LaserRevell". They have excelent Laser Radials for low prices in the moment. Merrily got one from me to Christmas and may tell (at the TLF-"Other Discussion"-section about it, I guess) about it. Okay, one point to mention: Sailors that decide to sail that boats, have to have the strong "Hobbit"-diet, I'm afraid....
     
  16. GBR 134

    GBR 134 Member

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    Current UK price from PSE website:-

    Cost

    Laser Classic £3795.00 inc VAT
    Laser Race 05 £4095.00 inc VAT
    Laser G-XD £4495.00 inc VAT [​IMG]

    (My note - the 05 is described as an 06 in the spec sheet and has a reasonable club race spec. Why they describe an 06 but price an 05 and it's now 08 is a mystery to me)
     
  17. bel120343

    bel120343 New Member

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    In Belgium its 21% VAT and the price is almost the same as in France, 3dealers in Belgium, but the Belgians also buy from holland and france or even germany
     

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