Two questions (hull layup schedule, deck drain plug)

cyrano138

Member
I purchased a sunfish for a hundred bucks just before Irma hit because the former owner just wanted it out of his yard during the storm. Well I tied it down well enough that there was no damage, and now I'm back to getting the boat ready to get on the water. I ordered a new sail and all it really needs, as far as repairs go, is to have the hole where the bailer used to be fixed, and a replacement for the original deck drain plug which is no longer there and has just been covered up with electrical tape.

First, let me say I sincerely apologize if this has been covered, but after loads and loads of Google searching I couldn't find anything about it.

1. What is the layup schedule for the hull? I ask because to be honest I don't really need a bailer and I'm just going to plug the hole by glassing and over. I plan on using polyester resin so I can gelcoat it and I just need to know how many layers of what weight cloth to use.

2. Can I use a typical plastic drain plug To replace the original? The originals are a bit expensive and Sunfish direct doesn't seem to have them in stock anyway. Also, I'm honestly not sure how to install them. Do either the original drain plugs or a modern plastic drain plug need to be backed with anything whether it's a word or metal backing plate? Or, can the screws that secure the base of the drain plug simply be screwed into the Fiberglass Deck without a backing plate or block?

Thanks in advance for all your help. I'm kind of hoping I can get the repairs done this weekend and get it out on the water as soon as possible.
 
Forgot to ask one other thing : I bought the new sail without any rings. Any thoughts on just tying it onto the book and gaff with loops of line? A little time consuming at first but I can make them instead of having to order them. Anyone else do this?
 
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My most recent Sunfish purchase also had the bailer sealed-off by the previous owner.

A quick-weekend-fix for the bailer is a 1¼-inch "Expandable Freeze Plug", readily available from NAPA, Discount, & etc at $6. Put a larger washer and nut on the inside, and I suggest a 5/16" plastic wingnut (or knob) to remove it more readily.

I'll have to leave the other questions for others, as I don't use polyester resin.

As for "search":
 
Forgot to ask one other thing : I bought the new sail without any rings. Any thoughts on just tying it onto the book and gaff with loops of line? A little time consuming at first but I can make them instead of having to order them. Anyone else do this?
Yes, there is no issue with using small line for sail ties instead of using the plastic rings.
 
I keep a supply of plastic shower curtain rings for that purpose. They're larger than they should be, but they'll work. May be better for the upper spar (or gaff) for depowering the rig.
 
Question 1:
Having a hole in the bottom of the Sunfish cockpit is quite convenient for draining lake water, rainwater, or wash water when the boat is hauled. If you don't want to mess with the Sunfish bailer and are prepared to empty the cockpit some other way (bail and sponge out the cockpit, etc etc) it's perhaps not crazy to close the bailer hole more-or-less permanently with resin and reinforcement. The next owner can reopen the hole.

The diameter of the Sunfish bailer hole is 1 3/8". The thickness of the Sunfish cockpit+hull where the bailer hole is located is about 3/8". There is no need to bevel or enlarge the bailer hole before filling it--a simple glass plug will be plenty strong enough.

• Preparation

Clean the area around the bailer hole on both the cockpit and hull side.

Wrap medium grit sandpaper around a large dowel or round tool handle and lightly sand all around the inside of the bailer hole. You don't want to remove much material, only to clean the inside of the hole and expose a fresh surface.

Wax the area around the bailer hole on both the cockpit and hull side, being careful to get no wax inside the bailer hole.

Tape around the bailer hole on the cockpit side to protect the cockpit sole from resin drips when you fill the hole.

• With hull side up
Cut a disk marginally larger than 1 3/8" in diameter from polyethylene sheet or any smooth, thin plastic sheet. Center the plastic disk on the sticky side of a piece of 2" or wider duct or packaging tape. Carefully apply the tape over the bailer hole, with the plastic disk centered over the hole. Add more tape to make the patch over the hole quite firm. Rub down the tape all around the hole.
(The purpose of the plastic disk is to give a nice smooth finish to the hull side of the glass plug that will close the hole. There may be a little very thin resin leakage under the tape on the hull side when the plug is cured. If you waxed the hull this resin flash should be easy to remove.)

• With deck side up
Catalyze a small amount of your choice of resin. (The Sunfish is made of polyester resin--there is no need to use epoxy for the plug, but use what you favor). If the ambient temperature is > 70° and if you use polyester or vinylester resin, cut back on the MEKP catalyst--you don't want the plug to overheat as it cures.

Add fiberglass reinforcement to the catalyzed resin. The reinforcement can be glass cloth cut into 1/4"-1/2" snippets or fiberglass mat torn into small pieces, or both. You want a thick slurry of resin and glass.

Spoon the slurry into the bailer hole, filling it to the top. Lay a small piece of polyethylene or other plastic sheet over the hole and massage the slurry to remove any air trapped in the hole, and to smooth the top of the slurry even with the cockpit sole. Don't push so hard that you dislodge the tape on the hull covering the hole!

After the resin cures strip the tape and plastic. Done.

Question 2:
You may have to enlarge the hole in the deck for a replacement plastic drain plug. If the deck is in reasonably good condition you can either screw or pop rivet the drain plug directly to the deck.

Question 3:
Many Sunfish sailors tie their sails to the spars with light line. This is at least as good (and quieter) than using the plastic rings.
 
Question 1:
Having a hole in the bottom of the Sunfish cockpit is quite convenient for draining lake water, rainwater, or wash water when the boat is hauled. If you don't want to mess with the Sunfish bailer and are prepared to empty the cockpit some other way (bail and sponge out the cockpit, etc etc) it's perhaps not crazy to close the bailer hole more-or-less permanently with resin and reinforcement. The next owner can reopen the hole.

The diameter of the Sunfish bailer hole is 1 3/8". The thickness of the Sunfish cockpit+hull where the bailer hole is located is about 3/8". There is no need to bevel or enlarge the bailer hole before filling it--a simple glass plug will be plenty strong enough.

• Preparation

Clean the area around the bailer hole on both the cockpit and hull side.

Wrap medium grit sandpaper around a large dowel or round tool handle and lightly sand all around the inside of the bailer hole. You don't want to remove much material, only to clean the inside of the hole and expose a fresh surface.

Wax the area around the bailer hole on both the cockpit and hull side, being careful to get no wax inside the bailer hole.

Tape around the bailer hole on the cockpit side to protect the cockpit sole from resin drips when you fill the hole.

• With hull side up
Cut a disk marginally larger than 1 3/8" in diameter from polyethylene sheet or any smooth, thin plastic sheet. Center the plastic disk on the sticky side of a piece of 2" or wider duct or packaging tape. Carefully apply the tape over the bailer hole, with the plastic disk centered over the hole. Add more tape to make the patch over the hole quite firm. Rub down the tape all around the hole.
(The purpose of the plastic disk is to give a nice smooth finish to the hull side of the glass plug that will close the hole. There may be a little very thin resin leakage under the tape on the hull side when the plug is cured. If you waxed the hull this resin flash should be easy to remove.)

• With deck side up
Catalyze a small amount of your choice of resin. (The Sunfish is made of polyester resin--there is no need to use epoxy for the plug, but use what you favor). If the ambient temperature is > 70° and if you use polyester or vinylester resin, cut back on the MEKP catalyst--you don't want the plug to overheat as it cures.

Add fiberglass reinforcement to the catalyzed resin. The reinforcement can be glass cloth cut into 1/4"-1/2" snippets or fiberglass mat torn into small pieces, or both. You want a thick slurry of resin and glass.

Spoon the slurry into the bailer hole, filling it to the top. Lay a small piece of polyethylene or other plastic sheet over the hole and massage the slurry to remove any air trapped in the hole, and to smooth the top of the slurry even with the cockpit sole. Don't push so hard that you dislodge the tape on the hull covering the hole!

After the resin cures strip the tape and plastic. Done.

Question 2:
You may have to enlarge the hole in the deck for a replacement plastic drain plug. If the deck is in reasonably good condition you can either screw or pop rivet the drain plug directly to the deck.

Question 3:
Many Sunfish sailors tie their sails to the spars with light line. This is at least as good (and quieter) than using the plastic rings.
 
Thank you for the incredibly detailed response! I was going to bevel the hole before glassing it just to practice because I have to close up some extraneous through hulls on another boat I'll working and I've never done it before. That's why I wanted to get some thoughts on a layup schedule.

Would you guys recommend installing an original drain plug? If so, where can I get one? If not, what should I use?

Finally, what diameter line should I use to attach the sail?

Thank you again for all your help, guys!

Jack
 
If you just plug the bailer hole (without beveling, etc) it's easy to undo should the need ever arise.

One of the regular posters here has drain plugs in several styles:
Drain Plug Assemblies | SailingForums.com
Craig's prices are really low, and he's very easy to deal with.

Optimist dinghy sailors tie their sails to mast and boom with really small stuff. You can use almost anything that will hold a reef knot--it doesn't have to be high tech. Opti sail ties (these are 1.2mm--pretty thin!) :
Opti Sail Ties - EX1336
 
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I'd go the beveling route, without a doubt. Don't need a repair to pop out at the wrong time. Just the thickness of the hull isn't enough material to "grab" the repair. Hole saws make quick work at re-creating another hole.
Some 1/8" line from wherever will do the job with lashing the sail to the booms. I believe most racers tie their sails as well, especially at the ends and near the top of the mast on the upper spar....so they don't snag, like the rings are sometimes prone to do. I got some neat colored line to do mine. Looks spiffy! ha!

oh ...all that rubbish said....I'd install a new bailer, or at least something to drain the cockpit when out of the water, even if it's just a plug. The bailers work "so-so" and you really need to be on a reach or run for them to work best, but will slowly do the job, especially if you flip the boat and fill the cockpit or take a wave over the bow, etc.
 
The bailer hole is located in one of the thickest and least flexible areas of the Sunfish hull. If the margin of the bailer hole is properly prepared and the resin is properly mixed it is extremely unlikely that a glass reinforced plug 1 3/8" in diameter could be "popped out".

I certainly agree that a drain hole in the bottom of the cockpit is a rather handy thing to have.
 
Just to save everyone the trouble of hashing it out, I'm going to bevel and glass over the cockpit drain. I'm sure a plug would hold just fine, but I need to practice the method anyway, and if it turns out to have been a mistake, I can always cut a new hole and install a bailer.

All I need to figure out now is the deck drain. I'm tempted to glass that over as well because the previous owner installed an inspection port just to the left of and about six inches behind the bow handle. If there's water in the hull, it should be able to cross over the centerline and drain from the inspection port, right? Seems reasonable since the one starboard side drain was meant to be the original and only means of draining the hull. If anyone has an original drain plug assembly for sale and doesn't mind explaining to me how to install it I wouldn't mind putting it in just for the heck of it, but so far I have 240 bucks into this boat and have to spend another 40 or 50 on running rigging, so I'd like to do everything as simply as possible and get it in the water as quickly as possible. It wasn't meant to be a restore project or anything -- it was meant to be something I can sail while I'm restoring my cal 20.
 
With the surrounding hole area beveled, especially on both sides, it's impossible for a repair to pop out, versus "extremely unlikely" .
My experience seeing repairs done without beveling and even just omitting adequately cleaning the area before glass layup, has proved too high a failure rate, even if it's just re-cracking around the hole perimeter. I see this quite frequently with small screw holes especially. People popping their fav filler in a screw hole to only to see it reappear next season. Do it right, do it once.
 
The bailer is a safety feature. If you will be glassing it over, I'd go ahead and glass over the entire cockpit so you can't find yourself with a full cockpit and unable to bail. Sailfish did fine with no cockpit so shouldn't be an issue to eliminate it.
 
If the hull is level the water pools just behind the dagger board trunk.
I use a inspection port behind the splash-rail and suck the water out
with a 50 cc syringe. You would have to tip the boat forward for the
bow port and then all the water would run past the port.

Find a used bailer on E-Bay or maybe someone will sell you one. They
go for $25 dollars. They may be primitive but they save a lot of time
draining water. You don't need the DePersia plug if you don't have it,
a wine cork or hardware plug will do. If you really want to go sailing
now you could seal the edges with epoxy and stick duck tape over the hole. It will
not sink if you loose the duct tape.

You can save money by buying the halyard and sheet lines at your local hardware
store. Should be able to do it for $18 and have just as good or better quality
than a Sunfish Rigging Kit bought online.

Original drain plugs have a rubber o-ring on the hull side and a 1/2" Flange Nut
on the tub side. That's all, nothing more.

Should be able to find a hardware set-screw for the deck drain plug until
you get something better.

I tie the sail on with Paracord, others use different types of cord. It works
better and cheaper than the shower rings. Paracord also works good for
the deck traveler.
 
I would put a bailer in.
The OP may be mixing the terms, "bailer" and "drain plug".

The drain plug is on the deck—right side. For sailing this weekend—which starts on the East Coast in about 12 hours—duct tape will work. ;)

The bailer is in the bottom of the cockpit—left of the keel. Depending on the year, the original could have been metal or plastic. Entire plastic bailers are available new from Sunfish Direct for about $45.

In 12 hours, resin will still be smelling of MEK. :(
In 12 hours, NAPA will be open. :)
 
I need to fix both. I should have taken some photos to avoid confusion. The old bailer was removed, the deck drain plug and all its associated parts are missing.

I'm going to install a plastic drain plug in the deck. Maybes I'll beef up that little patch of deck from the top so the screws have something to bite into. Might be a little ugly but, hey, it's a $100 boat.

I don't know about your time table, l&v, after almost twenty years of surfboard repair I can't think of a time a repair done at night (and done right) was still tacky in the morning. :)
If I can get it in the water by Sunday night it still counts.
 
Deck is too thin for wood or sheet metal screws. You could use 3M 5200
to secure the plug. I think the plastic deck drain is not so good a fix since
the plug tab will be sticking up and you want a flush mount. Just bevel
and fiberglass over the plug hole. Then install the plastic deck drain
in the transom. Now you don't have to flip the boat to drain it, you
can drain it on the trailer. This gets you closer to what's normally done
and you don't have to go back and redo what you did.
 
Webfoot, I like the transom idea a lot. Would you still use 5200 on the transom or is the glass there thick enough to screw it into?
 
Be aware that the expanding foam used to glue the structural foam blocks in place in a Sunfish sometimes expands against the inside of the transom (I have a boat with the stern completely filled with expanding foam). You can carve or punch out a channel through the foam for a transom drain, but water in the hull may not exit easily or completely through a transom drain. If foam-free I like a transom drain, but you don't really know what's inside the stern unless you go to the trouble to install a rear inspection port.

The deck drain is almost as problematic. Because of its position it's difficult to completely drain the boat even after rolling it up on edge. Your bow inspection port may be good enough (if it's free of surrounding foam). Lift the stern and open the inspection port. Sponge out if not much water, flip over and drain if the boat's a leaker.
 
Going to need the 3m 5200 to bond the plug in place. Screws and
fiberglass with no backing block really don't go well together. Better
off using pop rivets if possible. If you have the old rudder system you
might as well go with a 4" inspection port. Then you can use machine screws and fender washers as well as replace all the rudder hardware with the same. The old rudder strap on the bottom of the hull will leak and eventually pull out as it used a single wood screw. I've not come across a Sunfish with the stern completely filled with foam yet. Sounds like someone was doing a Friday or Monday job. The quality of US products really did hit rock bottom in the early and mid 70's.
 
If you fill in the cockpit bailer hole and later decide you need to install a bailer to drain the cockpit, I sell a Phantom bailer for $2. Yes $2. Why, because I have several hundred of these bailers. Buy three for $5. Shipping extra. They require a 3/4" hole. There are 5 pieces, the lower profile clam shell for the outside hull part, flange piece for inside the cockpit, plastic disk, rubber gasket and rubber plug.

I also have deck drain plugs (see link earlier in thread).

I usually use #8 screws for deck drain plugs and Goop Marine Sealant or 3M 4200. I don't like using 3M 5200 as it is a more permanent sealant making it more difficult to remove hardware. If you use pop rivets be sure to seal the heads with sealant as those can leak.
 

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Hey, sailcrafti, I sent you a pm. As it turns out, West Marine has a abysmally poor selection of polyester resin, so I wound up ordering the resin I need for the Sunfish repairs and spending the weekend working on my Cal 20 instead. So, long story short, I didn't get it in the water this weekend, but it should happen fairly soon.
 
Webfoot, I like the transom idea a lot. Would you still use 5200 on the transom or is the glass there thick enough to screw it into?
The transom is very thin. :eek: I drilled the hole with a conventional drill bit, whereupon the hole became shredded. :confused: I should have used a spade bit. I used epoxy to smooth the opening, and used a small neoprene stopper. It's worked well.

For siting the plug, pick the lower side that the boat is likely to rest. As member Roller said earlier, "excavate" through the foam with a long bit, until you get some drainage. At first, bits of foam will clog the transom drain.

Those who moor their Sunfish (and have an inspection port) should investigate those skinny, two-AA, battery-powered bailers. While they're apt to clog (and slow) they're surprisingly efficient otherwise.

At about 1/8-inch, the hull at the bailer is also thinner than the two thicknesses of the rest of the boat would suggest. My "expandable freeze plug" suggestion was a "stop-gap" measure. (Pardon the pun). :oops:

I'd like to hear more about this specter Phantom bailer, why they're so available, and how it works.
 
I think after considering the whole matter, I've decided I'm going to leave the deck drain where it is and put one of those plastic drain plugs in. I may have to drill a new hole or move some holes around but it still seems like the simplest option. I was considering beefing up the area by glassing a few layers of cloth over it and then screwing in the new deck drain plug, but I may just go with the 5200.
 
I'll wade in. I'd replace the bailer and drain plug with new or used Sunfish parts, ask around here on the Forum Wanted Ads. That is the design, why deviate? Plus if you want to sell the boat someday you'll have a wider range of buyers than if you start fiberglassing over things.

You could probably put a layer of Gorilla tape over the bailer hole inside and outside and go sailing. No need to reinforce the drain plug but I would try to find a replacement that fits into existing hole. Make sure to apply a a marine grade sealant.

Don't put an extra hole on the transom, just sponge the boat out through the inspection port. If there are more than one or two sponges worth, then you need to find and repair the leak.

You can buy 50 feet of 1/8 inch diameter New England Rope nylon line and lash on the sail with a marlin hitch, the way ALCORT used to do it. Find the halfway point and tie that to the interlocking bolt. Work half of the line up the gaff and the other half along the boom.

IMG_1531.JPG


zip marlin hitch sail.jpg
 
I also agree with Signal Charlie.

My opinion is that transom plugs on Sunfish don't work all that well. Unlike some dinghies, the Sunfish has quite a bit of rocker, which means the bow has to be held high for water to reach the transom. You also have to tilt it to one side or another, in order to drain. Further there is a lot of foam in the back of the boat adhered to the hull that will interfere with the water draining properly. Finally, drain plugs can leak, or if you're like me, you can forget to screw it in before you put the boat in the water.

This past summer, my boat developed a leak which I will be chasing down soon, but in the meantime I have just used a towel to sponge it out. I put the towel in through the inspection port behind the splash rail and then put the trailer tongue on the ground so the water runs forward.

On the bailer, I would not be without one, and I would not stray from the Sunfish bailer. It works well enough, isn't that expensive, is simple and it fits. I bought a NOS de Persia when I first got the boat, but I use the plastic one as it doesn't corrode. Just me, and there are plenty of Sunfish for sail where I live, but if I was looking to buy and I saw one that had the bailer hole hacked up, or no bailer at all, I would move on automatically.

All just my opinion of course. Good luck.
 
Well, it's all done. I glassed over the bailer hole. I realize that's controversial for some reason but anyone who likes (including me) can reinstall it with little to no trouble. It's just a matter of knowing what size hole to cut.

When I was doing that I spotted a bad repair to the hull towards the bow. Someone had crunched it in pretty good. By the time I got all the bad glass out, I had another decent-sized hole to glass over.

The last injury I found was that someone had crunched the lip on the bow, and broken the laminate there as well. I just put some thickened epoxy on the underside to brace it up a bit since it didn't seem very extreme. I probably should have used some laminate but I can always revisit that one.

I got a little lucky with the drain plug hole. I found a plug the nearly fit, so I painted the inside of the rim with a little gel coat and now it fits, snug as a bug.

I bought new rigging and put on the infinity sail I purchased.

All in all I have about 350 bucks into the boat. I'll take some more pictures soon. This is just a quick one I snapped when we finally finished rigging it up.
 

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Thanks! I'm going to sail it today so I'll take some pictures (if it doesn't sink or explode or something) and post them. From what I gathered reading about them, it's a '69 or '70.
 
I also really want to thank everybody for their help and responses in getting this setup. I've owned a few boats but they're all different and figuring out how to rig one doesn't necessarily mean you can rig the other, or repair it, or whatever.

So thank you all for the advice, photos, and information.

I never did get an answer about the layup schedule though so I will say I used alternating layers of 1.5 oz chopped strand mat and 10 oz cloth. I used seven layers starting and ending with the mat. It was a little high in some places in a little low and others so I think it's a good layup schedule and the only flaw was my poor chamfering technique. I prepped the hull for both repairs by using a 12 to 1 chamfer. Unfortunately I choose an orbital sander with 80 grit paper, so it took hours. Next time I would use a 4.5 inch grinder or much coarser paper or maybe a combination of the two.
 

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