Thoughts on Pricing of class approved Sails.

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by Atlas, Apr 28, 2007.

  1. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Wrong!!

    You determine what you pay for stuff.

    If you don't like the giving price the money to the seller, you don't buy.

    Every single one of you who has bought a Laser or parts or sails for your Laser made a personal decision that the price was fair.

    Further. KNow this.

    If generic sails were 100% legalized for racing, the same people who buy Benydryl, Advil, Claritin, Bayer, Neosporin, Coke, Kelloggs Corn Flakes, Comet Cleanser, GE Silicone, Interlux 216 thinner, Budweiser water, and other Brand Name products, would still buy oficial Laser Builder supplied sails.
     
  2. Atlas

    Atlas New Member

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    Thats a great point !:)

    So is everybody happy with the prices for sails?

    And would poeple like to see more boats on the water?
    I would, and if there all sailing past me great!! Gives me more boats to chase and improve on.;)
     
  3. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Sounds like we are talking symantics here. I've said before (and have gotten tired of repeating it over and over) , the builder supplied items are priced on what the market will pay.

    You wanna race in class events, your gonna pay.
     
  4. TheBoathouse

    TheBoathouse New Member

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    Breaking news OptiParts (www.optistuff.com) are now selling non-class legal spars and booms. While pricing on the Masts are roughly they same, I am sure they will last twice as long as the Manufacturer supplied ones. BUT the booms are only $199 as compared to $270...this should make this class that much more affordable and should increase participation twofold. I am sure no one here will have a problem with anyone showing up with non class spars...(heavy on the sarcasm)
     
  5. tomsinamerica

    tomsinamerica New Member

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    OK... Now I'm worried....

    I mean, an intensity sail is easy to identify... it says it on it and doesn't have the button...

    But the topmast? It's harder to notice that someone's not using a class legal spar in a race. As for the other bits, gudgeons, blades, bailers and so on that Optiparts are producing.. next time you buy a used boat you'll have to take all the parts off it to make sure that it's genuine??! Would you want to buy a Laser that's not a laser?

    The world's gone mad!
     
  6. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    It gets interesting. Just what percentage of a Laser could you have that is not actually a Laser. are we yet at the 50% illegal. Any 3rd party hulls available yet ?


    Ian
     
  7. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    for spars, look for the Laser approved sticker
     
  8. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Member

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    Rule 69 is for cheats.
     
  9. tomsinamerica

    tomsinamerica New Member

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    That's cool for when you're buying a boat... not so cool when your lining up on the start line....?

    What do you suggest we do regarding bailers, gudgeons, bow eyes, grab rails etc...?

    And to the other point... A laser is not a laser if it doesn't conform to class regulations in my opinion... even if that means that a gudgeon is made by someone else...
     
  10. Atlas

    Atlas New Member

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    I was talking to a few mates about this last night, I personaly don't want to see the boat changed in anyway, I think the rules work well.

    I just want justification in prices, there to high. That is the single reason only. If its doing something good, there maybe very little issue.

    Better prices makes it more affordable, puts more boats on the water, makes stronger fleets, increases the market, and there will be more demand and everybody wins.

    If it means using another sail to get the message through then so be it, maybe it will sort out a few other quality problems as well.

    But the whole thing won't make a difference if everybody is happy to hand over what ever they ask.

    Another point on spars, and don't quote me as this was second hand information, however not uncommen to any of you I'm sure.
    I was told about the world youth title sailors having to rebend there masts after every race because of the rule 5 "No bend rule". The intire fleet was jumping over the fence to rebend them back into shape. Should you have to do that? I'm not really sure.
     
  11. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Guys. None of this matters until boats are lined up on the starting line. I say practice with what you want. Club race with what ever your club fleet thinks is ok. However, when you venture from your home waters to race, (or race an open event in your home waters) you better have all class approved stuff on board.

    2 points- 1) class stuff is expensive. I say overpriced. 2) if there is an avenue for me to spend less money and still bo on the water while saving my expensive class stuff for the real thing then I see no problem with it as long as my fleet is cool with it too.

    Maybe when "Laser" witnesses a decline in their "consumables" they'll get in line with the market, but maintain their monopoly.
     
  12. John Gilmour

    John Gilmour Member

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    An alternative to a class monopoly on sails I have not seen mentioned here is the practice in some classes of letting anyone make and sell sails, provided they satisfy the rules, and then require purchase of a "royalty" patch to be sewn on the sail. This way the class organizaiton gets its cut from every sail sale, but competition among sailmakers can keep the price down and encourage the making of better sails. To be used in a class sanctioned race, every sail must hav the royalty patch.
     
  13. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Nothing new John, it's been talked about for ages.

    On top of that it doesn't guarantee low prices, if it did, a 470 jib wouldn't cost $500+ and a Star jib wouldn't cost $800+ for example.
     
  14. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    I think the system of very limited manufactures is good. After all, every boat is meant to be as identical as reasonably feasible. start opening to loads of others and there will start to be claims of X's sail being faster that Y's despite the fact that they should be identical - and then it's no longer really what I would call a strict one design.


    If people are unhappy about the prices of sales in the US I guess there are two things they could try:


    1. Visit Europe and buy one there (and when you watch your bank balance you wont think the US ones are expensive any more).


    or


    2. Maybe somebody should establish how the price of a sail is divided-up. For example, the more expensive UK sails purchased from PSE (manufacturer) have relatively few people taking their cut in the cost. Maybe if you buy through a dealer then the price has to be split further (i.e. you are paying for the convenience of walking into you local shop and buying a new sail there and then (and holding stock does cost money). Maybe somebody should publish what the manufacturer gets, what the Laser Class Assn gets, what Vanguard/PSE get, what the dealer gets, etc. Should it be cheaper getting a sail from Vanguard/PSE (fewer people taking their cut) ? Maybe the Class Assn should start selling sails directly (again. lower stock, fewer people taking a cut so cheaper ?) and at least that way profit goes to the class and thus back into regattas, newsletters, etc.


    Ian
     
  15. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    woof
     
  16. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Personally I'm not too concerned about the price of sails, but it seems to come-up every few weeks so I just thought some suggestions that might make people appreciate what can and cannot be done.


    Not seen the breakdown of prices myself but then I've not searched as, when I need a new sail I am pretty limited in choice as to where to get it from. Not happy or unhappy about that - it's just how it is.


    I don't know how things are organised in the US but I have never (in many years of owning boats) purchased any sail from a chandler. Always gone to the sailmaker (or in case of Laser to PSE). I have the impression its the way most people do it in the UK. Only recently started in dinghy's again so maybe things have changed a bit but for larger boars (One Designs) you get them from the approved sailmaker direct. Before that, in dinghy's again, the sailmaker direct.


    Ian
     
  17. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Hi friends,
    regarding racing on club level and not for the district list rankings, we welcome every Laserite, that want to share the lots of fun on the water with us. At that level of racing, not the origin of the sail, but the ability to sail successful of the sailor her-/himself (and her/his weight probably also is important) to sail in front of the racing fleet.

    Only the top-level racers or people that don't know where to get used ones, buy new sails from the official "Laser direct" stores or their authorized partners. Top Laserites also offer their used sails for good conditions to Laserites that sail at club races etc. etc. - this circle is closed well. Everyone (Hyde/North, the out-of-the-box-boat-builders, ILCA, postal-services, Laser-store-owners, top-sailors, used sail buyers sailing-clubs etc. etc.) of this circle have a bit profit and it works fine since the Laser came over the big pool from North America, 1972.

    It is not correct to compare the prices of the sails between the continents. Why? – Well, simply just try to compare the price of a standard bottle of cow-milk bought at WallMart USA related to one that is offered at WallMart Europe (I want to express, that the system of pricing goods can be totally different between continents). I am 100% sure, none of the store owners, that offer parts for the Laser at NA or other continents, throw out a tourist and guest at their city, that just want to make a small bargain and buy f.e. a new folded Radial from North to carry it home in their tourist-suitcase (Those customers have the full risk at the border of paying extra duty!! and that really can be an expensive experience in our days...). In Europe, a folded Hyde for the standard rig (North is not available here, I guess) is nearly everywhere at the same level between 545 to 580 Euros (1 Euro is about 1,25 US$) and often the official-stores for the Laser gives you some % less if you are a regular customer there. Also they give you warranty. Used Sails in good conditions are availble for about 200-300 Euros and new practice sails aber also at that level. So, I allways would buy a good used class-legal Sail.


    Relating to the rules, I am the opinion, that they protect us all about a boring and expensive battles of material and make racing at official racing events easy to join (have a legal boat, 37 years old or new, and pay the fee for the entry and you are one of those numerous who have the fun, on the water). I already get nightmares enough, by thinking of a Mylar-Carbon-sail or those Carbon-spars for the Laser...

    Over 30 years ago, at the time I started to enjoy the sailing of the Laser, we kept our eyes most to optimize our ability of sailing the Laser and exact that has been the reason, we not had those battles of material compared to our days where we already think f.e. of changing the Harken 312 at the boom to take those smaller new ones from Harken, you know.

    If someone comes to us and says:
    "Hey Lu, am I allowed to race with you, but I only have a 7,06-square-meter-Lasersail from xyz-Sailmakers?!"
    I would say: "You are welcome, sail with us and join the barbecue aft the sailing. But, keep of the hidden small electric-engine propeller at the transom of your Laser and strict follow rule-42 at our low-wind-pools, okay... ;o) "

    Cheers (and see you all at Kiel-Week next Saturday okay, the good-German-beer barrels are already stored at the fridge's there ... ;) )
    LooserLu
     
  18. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    I am sooooo jealous!!!

    I will be working in my hot humid boatshop and wishing I were playing over there with you!!
     

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