South America... we are in troubles

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by martinsm91, Jun 21, 2008.

  1. martinsm91

    martinsm91 New Member

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    Dear laser sailors all over the world, hi!

    My name is Martín Sánchez, and im de National Secretary of the District or Uruguay (country located at the south-east of SA, between ARG and BRA).

    Heare in Uruguay and in all SA too, we have a BIIIG problem... there aren't official parts or boats.

    The bigest problem is that people want sailing laser, but they couldn't!!!!! because there aren't parts or boats!!
    People who today is sailing at laser, who have broken parts, never could have it again.

    Please, authorities, do something, if you don't do nothing, the fleet in SA will be poor.


    Sory about my english, and best regards,

    Martín Sánchez
     
  2. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Comprendo.
     
  3. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Gouv, there are others, that now have to answer this 2nd SOS-Call. Not you or me.

    "4-th world" already made a well known big TLF thread (now closed by the admins of TLF) at the TLF-Politics-Discussion-area....

    Those "guys", that are responsible for this dilemma, are to shy to answer officially or here at TLF and, f.e., more prefer to sail Laser-Radial at Lake Lugano in Switzerland... of do hide under or behind a stone, somewhere in Cornwall/England/UK...

    Gouv, let us go and drink a couple of nice Magaritas to our friend Alex and Martin from "4th world" ....

    All the best
    LooserLu
    -------------
    (Related to European-Soccer: ..."We are (probably) going to Vienna ... without the Netherlands ..." Tot siens ;) )
     
  4. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    Completely clear, and in a normal font too.

    Martin, let me ask this. How many Laser sailors are there in South America? I'm wondering what the market size is relative to the US or Europe.

    I understand there is no local builder of boats, and that importing one is very expensive. Are you able to order replacement parts and import them, or is this too prohibitively expensive?

    If the market is large enough, an enterprising person could import them in volume or even get a license to manufacture Lasers in South America. Again, it's a matter of the potential market size.
     
  5. fracisco

    fracisco New Member

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    Russia played great today (and I was hoping for the Dutch to continue on). Can't wait to watch the Italy-Espana game.
     
  6. PUROLIO

    PUROLIO New Member

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    There used to be an official builder of Lasers in Chile (Primex S.A.), but unfortunately around 6 months ago the company had to declare bankrupcy. Primex also used to suppley the laser sailors with spars, deck fittings and sails.
    I would imagine that perhaps Riotecna (who already has the 29er license) may now started constructing them in Argentina (importing a new boat either from USA or from Australia is just way to expensive)
     
  7. martinsm91

    martinsm91 New Member

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    LooserLu: Are you joking???!!! Dear, i'm tolking to you with a lot of respect...

    Why you say that i'm from the "4th world"???

    REALY, ISN'T A JOKE...


    Torrid, I dont understand what are you saying in your first question.

    Are you able to order replacement parts and import them, or is this too prohibitively expensive?

    Yes, it's very expensive because the tax is have an important cost.


    If the market is large enough, an enterprising person could import them in volume or even get a license to manufacture Lasers in South America.


    Heare, it was a manufacturer (Primex S.A) in Chile , suddenly they dissapeared.


    Other thing, if the market heare isn't potential is because we are limited to grow up, because we haven't boats and parts! I'm able to say this because for example heare in URU, there are a lot of ex optimist sailors who want to sailing in laser but they couldn`t.


    Sorry about my english again!
    Best regards
     
  8. martinsm91

    martinsm91 New Member

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    If i'm not wrong, Riotecna want to construct laser, but they couldn't get the license. I don't know why!
     
  9. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    I only quote the words of "4th world" in reason they are from Dr. Loser from Buenos Aires. He already described the situation you decribe here in another TLF thread, see here:
    http://www.laserforum.org/champion-south-america-t9093.html
    I never would really make a joke to such a sad situation that now is to find at South America. Neither Uruguay is "4th world", nor any other country at South America. Are my words clear enough for you 'martinsm91'?



    Have all a nice Summer 2008 - see you again not before the beginning Autumn 2008.
    LooserLu
    ____
    @ 'fracisco': My bet for the final match more and more is: TUR vs. RUS ... TUR wins 3:2, at 94th minute the shoot the last goal ... How knows, in this moment...
     
  10. Dr._Loser

    Dr._Loser From 3# World

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    Martin, do not worry, LooserLu is a good friend !!!!!
    This is a pic of LooserLu, he is a GER football fan !!!

    [​IMG]

    He has said "Third or Fifth World" because I always say it.
    ....and please do not say you want ITALIA win the EuroCup !!!!

    I was talking with some friends of Brasil and Chile that they have the same Laser problems and they will write in T.L.F. soon...

    ......or we must turn on the BATMAN signal light in the night sky asking for same help......


    P.S.:LooserLu, drink more water, not so much beer !!:D


    .
     
  11. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Ookaay Alex, hicks ... ;)

    And now: Back to the topic, the problem at South Amercia ist so serious to be get another TLF thread closed by the admins.
     

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  12. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    I wanted to know how many Lasers are in South America.

    I looked in the 2007 Laser Class Handbook. This is what I find for the Laser population in varous regions:

    North America - 70,000 Lasers
    South America - 7,000 Lasers
    Australia - 8,000 Lasers

    So the market for Lasers in South America is about 10% the size of the North America market. However, it is the same size as the Australia market.

    Australia has a local builder. In South America, the Laser population has grown to almost the same size without a reliable source of boats and parts. I would think the South America Laser population could grow much larger, maybe to 15,000, with a reliable local builder (Martin, I believe this was your point).

    So this becomes a question for the ILCA. What are you doing to find a reliable builder for South America?
     
  13. martinsm91

    martinsm91 New Member

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    LooserLu, sorry. Now, i take your point. Nice summer too!

    Torrid, Exactly!!! ... "In South America, the Laser population has grown to almost the same size without a reliable source of boats and parts.", inmagine with a local builder!

    Bye!
     
  14. Dr._Loser

    Dr._Loser From 3# World

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    Dear Martin:
    I have received a Private Message and I think that if it is true, we will have to return to navigate Optimist :D

    here you have it:


    ....and soon:
    The Laser Radial gets a legal carbon upper mast.
    Carbon is very expensive, you will see it.....

    Also:
    The Laser Standard in future will have a new sail made from Mylar-Kevlaer-Carbon.......very expensive too.

    Photos of prototypes have been made public at TLF, already.
    Ask your Laser professionals, they know whats going on.

    I am afraid, Dr Loser, in South America the ILCA in future will not make International Championships.


    You are correct Dr Loser,
    ILCA perhaps is a club for a few people......

    Lovely, is'n it ???

     
  15. bjmoose

    bjmoose Member

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    Dear Martin and Dr Loser,

    I think you may have an overly optimistic impression of how many people read this forum, and how much influence they have.

    Most of us are North American sailors, with a smattering of sailors from elsewhere; none of us are boat builders, or ILCA officials. I know of one North American laser dealer who frequents the forum, and one North American class official.

    We might possibly be able to make a tiny ruckus on your behalf, but really, nothing compared to what is needed.

    What IS needed?

    Well, first it might seem that you need a builder, but actually what you need *first* is true for real ready buyers who have the money to purchase boats. Even with a local builder, these are going to be fairly expensive as you know, and "middle class" folks have many demands on their money. So if I wanted to build on my local fleet, I'd probably start by collecting a "prospective buyer" list that I could present to a potential builder and the class, with names, addresses, and phone numbers. But it needs to be a real list of real interested people, if someone from the class or builder starts calling the folks on the list and finds that they don't exist, aren't interested in sailing, or aren't really ready Laser buyers, your credibility for the steps that follow will be exactly ZERO.

    How might I collect such a list? Well, I'd show up at sailing events, obviously. The people who already have somewhat beat-up boats are fair candidates for purchasing replacement boats, and folks sailing and racing are potentially good prospects. As pointed out above, older optimist sailors might be your best prospects for moving into 4.7s and radials.

    Now, if I could convince one of the wealthier *potential* buyers to become an *actual* buyer and go through the hassle and expense of importing a new Laser, so much the better. Then, I'd get that owner to show up at regattas letting others look at and sail his boat, to see how nice it is and potentially get even more interest. Folks are always more interested in shiny new toys than beat-up old ones.

    I'd enlist other laser sailors to help in other regions, going to other major regattas outside my area. I'd vet a sampling of those names by calling them myself, and surveying their interest, to make sure that my overly enthusiastic "friend" hadn't manufactured interest where really there is none.

    Once I had a list with perhaps 500 to 1000 names on it(!), gathered over perhaps a year, I'd be ready to move on to the next step. Remember, even then, that more than half the folks on the list will probably not follow through and actually purchase boats, given the opportunity. Your hope is that perhaps one-fourth of them will do so.

    As you point out, a South American Laser builder is needed. Who might be a possibility to fulfill that role? Well, presumably someone who is *already* building fiberglass boats in South America would be the best prospect. Who are those builders? I expect you might know, and I'm sure I don't. List in hand, I'd approach some of those builders, to try and convince them to go through the process of becoming laser builders. Your list of ready buyers will give you credibility here, demonstrating tangibly the potential size of the market, and the amount of money to be made.

    The *final* step, not the first one as you seem to be trying to do here, is then to approach the International Class Association with the builder to have the ILCA license and approve the builder, which goes along with the builder agreeing to follow the ILCA's construction standards guide.

    I recognize that this is an insane amount of work. But no one can do this for you but yourself, your friends and co-sailors. Based on the amount of posting here on the Laser Forum over the last few months I hold out some hope that you may be committed enough to carry it through.

    We here on this forum can be enthusiastic cheerleaders for you, but that's really all we can do for you. You can fight for what you want, or you can continue to make desperate appeals for others to help you. The first *might not* work, but the second definitely *will not* work. You choose.

    Regards,
    Steven Hartman
    Laser sailor
     
  16. Dr._Loser

    Dr._Loser From 3# World

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    Dear Mr. Steven Hartman:

    I am deeply grateful for your message.
    I'll try to answer your comments, and please excuse me for my basic english.

    You know, I am an ordinary guy, surely most of you know much more than I about these items.

    I sincerely believe that who should be discussing this are Mr Jeff Martin with my Laser Class President for ARG, or with the Regional President of S.A........not me in this forum.


    Dear Martin and Dr Loser,
    I think you may have an overly optimistic impression of how many people read this forum, and how much influence they
    have.
    I sincerely believe that all the members of ILCA read this forum.

    4.500 click in ten days is "an overly optimistic impression of how many people read this forum" ????

    I have recieved a personal e-mail from Mr. Jeff Martin asking me about Dr Loser, so he reads TLF.


    Most of us are North American sailors, with a smattering of sailors from elsewhere; none of us are boat builders, or
    ILCA officials. I know of one North American laser dealer who frequents the forum, and one North American class
    official.
    We know that this is the most important Laser forum in the world.

    Listen this:
    My Laser Class President, Mr Palombo, had sent an
    e-mail to Mr Jeff Martin last year......
    ....after FOUR MONTH, Mr Palombo recieved the answer from Mr. Jeff Martin.

    When I posted the first "comic picture" in this forum, Mr. Jeff Martin send me a personal e-mail to me in TEN MINUTES, and an other to Mr. Palombo in 15 minutes !!!!!!....and he called by phone to Mr. Palombo quickly at home!!!!

    We might possibly be able to make a tiny ruckus on your behalf, but really, nothing compared to what is needed.
    What IS needed?
    Well, first it might seem that you need a builder,
    As Mr Jotag said...............
    http://www.laserforum.org/showpost.php?p=47995&postcount=22


    .......but actually what you need *first* is true for real ready buyers who have the money to purchase boats.
    Suppose If in South America we have 5.000 Laser Boats.
    Do you believe that the increasing the value of the Laser Boats from u$s 5.000.- to u$s 11.500.- in Brazil, so in Chile, ARG and others countries it will be more than u$s 12.000.-............ will bring growth in the Laser Class ???

    Would you pay this ?????

    Are these the I.L.C.A. political plans or ideas ????

    What we all need , as a class, is that the authorities take charge of the problem........not what Dr Loser is doing...

    ...Who is Dr Loser ?????.......a revolutionary ???....NO !!!....I am a ordinary sailor, nothing else....and I do not want to play this game any more.

    I would like to read in TLF some I.L.C.A. MEMBERS......ILCA Chairmen, a Laser Champion....... people with experience like you.........not Dr Loser any more!!!!


    ......The *final* step..........
    We here on this forum can be enthusiastic cheerleaders for you, but that's really all we can do for you.
    You can fight for what you want, or you can continue to make desperate appeals for others to help you.
    The first *might not* work, but the second definitely *will not* work.
    You choose.

    It is very valuable everything that you are proposing to me, every step you have recommended to me.

    First of all, there should be a reunion of authorities.
    There is not much I can do.
    As I have said, I am an ordinary guy.

    Perhaps what I have achieved is that the some Laser sailors know this problem.

    And I swear, I want this problem finished......I think that here in T.L.F. I have a lot to learn and I do not want to riot any more.....


    ...And I hope, that everything will NOT continue like that until today....
    ....I do not want to race SNIPE !!!!!:D


    Thank you Mr. Steven Hartman

    All the best for you and for the TLF Members
    Dr Loser:)
     
  17. Dr._Loser

    Dr._Loser From 3# World

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    Dear Members of T.L.F.:

    From my last post:

    "....First of all, there should be a reunion of authorities....."


    Have anybody heard about this ? :


    I.L.C.A. ANNUAL MEETING
    for Regional Presidents
    October 2008


    Dr. Loser :)


     
  18. Dr._Loser

    Dr._Loser From 3# World

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    From this Link:

    http://www.ilcana.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=439&Itemid=117


    ".......All feedback worldwide is expected to be collected and analyzed for a report to the ILCA World Council at their next meeting to be held in Spain in early October. At that time it is expected that a decision will be made with respect to forwarding the idea to ISAF for possible approval as Olympic class equipment for use beginning after the 2008 Olympics."


    "......Todos los comentarios en todo el mundo se espera que se recopilaran y analizaran la elaboración de un informe al Consejo de la Asociación Mundial en su próxima reunión que se celebrará en España a principios de octubre.
    En ese momento se prevé que se tomará una decisión con respecto a la transmisión de la idea de la ISAF para su posible aprobación como clase olímpica el equipo de inicio después de la Olimpiadas de 2008. "



    Best regards
    Dr Loser :)
     
  19. Murphs

    Murphs New Member

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    Not sure why you are referring to this?

    It is in relation to the development of carbon top sections
     
  20. Dr._Loser

    Dr._Loser From 3# World

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    Dear Murphs:

    1º)
    In T.L.F. I have asked:

    Has anybody heard about this ? :

    I.L.C.A. ANNUAL MEETING
    for Regional Presidents
    October 2008


    2º)
    In T.L.F. I have found this:

    "....next meeting to be held in Spain in early October."

    I only wanted to know when the next I.L.C.A. meeting will take place.

    Probably the october agenda is full, but we hope that this topic will be in future I.L.C.A.'s discussions.

    Best regards
    Dr. Loser :)
     

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