Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by MudShark, Jun 8, 2005.

  1. MudShark

    MudShark New Member

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    Would using a shackle on one of the cunningham primary lines/blocks be a rules violation? I'm using splices for all ends and the block doesn't fit through the cringle. (but the thimble will) I hate knots; they kill line strength and look fugly! (I don't have a single load bearing knot on my 505)

    And just for my own curiosity, why no tapered lines? can't be cost, its just stripping the cover off the line thats there already. Its just time. And why no Kevlar/Aramid lines? (not that I'd ever use a kevlar line)

  2. rock steady

    rock steady New Member

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  3. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    Fred Schroth passed these comments along with respect to this thread which I have cut and pasted below... note that Fred is an official ILCA District Measurer (from District 15) dutifully approved by the ILCA office.

    Fred Schroth's measurement comments:

    The forum is great. I am a huge Bradley fan and way back whenfor a short period, I set him up as the webmaster of the site as well. On regular occasion I visit the forum and read the entries. I could join the forum. On the other hand, I have been staying clear to keep my "the way things used to be done" vitriol out of the Forum's particular corner of Laser sailing. So I am torn but no planning to subscribe anytime soon.

    Having just read the folloing entry

    The answers are:
    1. Kevlar breaks when bent sharply. Way back when the cunningham and boom vang were not allowed to be rigged with Kevlar because the officially held World Council opinion was "Kevlar is dangerous in this application." Spectra is not banned and for all lines Laser works better than Kevlar so the rule has not been and probably never needs to be changed.
    Practical answer? Use Spectra and go sailing.

    2. Tapered lines may simply be lines with the cores removed or whatever. For most sailors, tapered lines mean, "Go buy a tapered line." It has been a while since I actually attended a World Council meeting but Ian is still the President and I think I can generally describe his World Council's view of things Laser:
    In fantasy Laser land the boat remains exactly the same with no changes, our boats are all equal and we have perfect Laser racing. Fantasy laser land does not exist. We are forced for a number of reasons, social, business, availability, and differnet sized sailors to make some personalization and variability legal. Things like the new vang and cunningham came because sailors needed the control and under the old rules our class was becoming a game featuring silly knots. The new rigs are a standardized set of pulleys which replace most of the silly knots. In reality, the new vang is simpler than a bunch of silly knots and the game is closer to one design as a result of its development.
    Tapered lines fail under another the universal Laser test:
    If it makes the boat faster, it is cheating.
    If it does not make the boat faster it is a stupid waste of beer and food money.

    Last: There is another test. Does it make the boat more comfortable and user friendly without changing performance? That takes me to the question about shackles.

    3. The rules do not allow any shackles or they do allow shackles. The uses for legal shackles are described. My OPINION is the new vang rules were implemented in stone a bit sooner and with a little less opportunity foor testing and feedback than they should have been. In my case, I find the tying and untying of the cunningham line to be unnacceptable. I have been using a shackle except when racing legally. See the link below and yes the spelling typo is really in the address:

    It is my opinion the World Council should clarify the rules and allow the shackle as shown...but I have been campaigning for that change since early 2001 with no success.

    Practical shackle answer? If you use shackles that are not described as allowed, you are cheating. If the shackles hava anything to do with a function which would change the actual performance of the boat, you are also morally cheating...

    says me.

  4. MudShark

    MudShark New Member

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    my inquirey was just from a courousity point. I, personally, loathe kevlar, but kind dumb to outlaw it and the only banned line. but makes NO diffenece to me. kevlar is better used in the hull (also banned)

    Problem here. The cover does *zero* to add to the strength of the line. The core is holding the load. And if the load is easier spliced as a a single 12 strand braid, let me strip the cover ('fluff') off and use the meat of the line. for the intended use. (hence reducing the 'loat' load carrying value of the line)

    And if it doesn't make the boat go faster, then why the heck not let me do it? I'm not gaining any performace advantage, but adding to the ease of using the boat. Just addding to the strength of the termination of the line.

    Ok we are an international class. But I guess I need to re-read the rules. If its not stated as a 'no-do' then its far game no? If it has to be written as being fair game, reguards to the Laser class.
    Its a shame that you need to fit the boat as opossed to making the boat fit you. Kinda limits the number of people that can sail in the class, no?

    The rules is one of the major reason why I own a couple of 505's. Rig it anyway you want; make it work for *you*. Combined crew eight of 300-400lbs. name another boat that has that great a spread. And it's still a OD, but multiple builder.

    I guess this conviced me. I'll rig my laser as *I* want, aka: right. Next youu guys will tell me I'm using the wrong klnot, so I'm DSQ'd.

    Heck, I only bought the boat to kick around in.
    I'll continue to race a boat that has a comeptiive (at world classs level) boat for t 20 years. Carbon/Kevlar/S-Glass, epoxy, full nomex honey-combed cored hull. (doesn't make the hulll faster, just live longer)
  5. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    I think the following class rule sums it up:


    The Laser shall be raced in accordance with these rules, with only the hull, equipment, fittings, spars, sail and battens manufactured by a licensed builder in accordance with the Laser design specification (known as the Construction Manual) which is registered with ISAF.

    No addition or alteration may be made to the hull form, construction, equipment, type of equipment, placing of equipment, fittings, type of fittings, placing of fittings, spars, sail and battens as supplied by the builder except when such an alteration or change is specifically authorised by Parts 2 or 3 of these Rules.

    So, in effect, if it's not defined in the rules, it's NOT fair game.

    I understand and hear you as to the FiveOh class. For better or worse, the Laser class is at the opposite end of the spectrum as far as tweaking within the rules. Basically, if you go with the thinking that we are all sailing the same hull/rig, and using the same controls, you'll soon realize that the way to the top of the ladder is by focusing more on the other aspects of the game, such as boat handling, speed, fitness, tactics and strategy...

  6. HECS

    HECS New Member

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    Dave, YOU may know how to take out the core or cover, and it's not hard - but other people don't know how. The whole point of the Laser is that you don't get an advantage through being able to buy more expensive lines (ie tapered lines) or spending time modifying the boat.

    "Its a shame that you need to fit the boat as opossed to making the boat fit you."

    Maybe, but where do you stop? I'm light....can I "make the boat fit me" by fitting the sliding seat from my International Canoe to my Laser?

    If I was into 505s, would you be annoyed if I "made the boat fit me" by fitting a 505 with a trapeze for the skipper, or a masthead assy?

    "Kinda limits the number of people that can sail in the class, no?"

    Errr, how many 505 sailors are there, compared to Laser sailors? The 505 rules are very restrictive by some standards but you guys like them.....horses for courses, it's all comparative.

    Isn't there always something you can not like in a boat, if you want? Ever sailed on of the old (1980s) pre-restriction 18 foot skiffs, with 31' wingtip beam and a 43' mast? They had very few rules, but loads of hassles.

    I know what you mean about hull life, but only about 5% of Laser sailors are at the standard where they really have to worry about that.....unless you're training and racing 3 days a week, you have way too many other weaknesses to worry about the boatspeed. It's great that 505s last so well, but then again your recent three-time world champion admits that the level of the class (great though it is) is not up to Olympic standard, so it may not be a fair comparison.
  7. MudShark

    MudShark New Member

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    But now we come full circle. If there is no performace advantage, why not allow it? Granted there can be a slight advatage in weight savings, (certainly less then, say a sandwich? :) ) But I'm just looing to lose all the knots. Eye splices look so much sexier then a bowline. And to speed up rigging the boat, so I can go sailing faster.

    Not a fair comparison. In all of those, out are adding additional controls/rigging; I'm only looking to adjust/tweak Whats already there.
    And noot for nothing, I don't see much reason to add any ccontrols to the laser; it seems about right (at least the pro version)
    Very restrictive? That I don't see. Yes, there are a few I don't like. main one being no carbon masts. (but a full carbon hull is fine. dumb, huh?)

    And I meant more that if a guy is sort and wants to move a cleat or something to accomodate that, he can't. he's stuck struggling.

    I'm not asking for new controls, just the ability move, adjust, tweak *whats already there* Not even increasing purchase.

    So, going by one of the previous posts, I'm DSQ since I added thimbles where I did my eye splices. (the taper on the vang line is another spot).
    But overall I'm cool with it. like I said, the laser is just to kick around in. I just wish I could have gotten a used laser to make illegal instead of a brandy new one. Now I gotta throttle back and not do anything drastic/unreversable.

    And a public appology for the rant! sorry guys.

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