Rudder Tie Down/Loose Tiller

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by Deimos, Aug 1, 2007.

  1. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    I have the carbon tiller (from the UK) plus the "mega bolt" thing and am having difficulty keeping the tiller tight in the rudder stock.


    When I depart I have the rudder only part way down. I then stop, push the rudder fully down, push the tiller hard into the rudder and tie it down to the eye in the rudder (the line is the only thing keeping the tiller in the rudder - I don't use the pin). I have tied a loop in the line so have a 2:1 purchase to get it tight. The line is spectra and thus a "pain" to untie later. (when coming back in)


    All is fine until after an hour or so when the tiller starts to work a bit lose. Nothing serious, just that I have a lose tiller (psychological rather than affecting anything else). When a bit lose, the tiller does not flop around and does not hit the traveller cleat. Just me.


    I think the difficulty is tying it really good and tight on the water. I remember in Fireballs we used to have fixed rudders that would not lift, but we took them off when sailing back in (easier as you dropped the main before lifting the rudder so arriving ashore was quite gentle even in strong winds).


    I did try a cleat on the rudder (rather than an eye) but that was worse so I put the eye back.


    Do I just have to learn to tie the line harder and tighter, tolerate a slightly lose tiller ? Do others drop the rudder after departing or do they tie down ashore.


    Many thanks
    Ian
     
  2. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Re: Rudder Tie Down/Lose Tiller

    It's the spectra line - Notorious for what you are describing.
    Change to a different line
     
  3. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    Re: Rudder Tie Down/Lose Tiller

    Why not the pin?
     
  4. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Member

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    Re: Rudder Tie Down/Lose Tiller

    The pin only secures the tiller to the rudder head. It does nothing to keep the rudder blade down

    On the same subject, what kind of line do folk use for the rudder tie-down? Do you use a purchase? Do you use the cleat as part of the purchase or use the struts inside the rudder?
     
  5. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Re: Rudder Tie Down/Lose Tiller

    The pin in it's current shape will catch the mainsheet occasionally on jibes.

    Since the pin's only purpose is to hold the tiller and the rudder downhaul line does the same thing, it's not needed...

    I've tried 12 strand spectra, 12 strand vectran, marlow prestretch, generic double braid low tech and swiftcord. The last three all work about the same IMHO. I had the same problem with the 12 strands as the original poster (using purchase and cleat)

    I use a purchase, with the cleat as a turning point (ACME tiller) - all purchase is above the rudder
     
  6. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Rudder Tie Down/Lose Tiller

    49208, could you post a picture of your rudder tie down/downhaul system? I have trouble with this, too. I did a search, but no pictures. Or do you know of a link to a picture or diagram of a good system?

    Merrily

     
  7. laser158689

    laser158689 New Member

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    Re: Rudder Tie Down/Lose Tiller

    1) Make sure your tiller fits the rudder head. I have to shim mine with a couple layers of duct tape.

    2) If using Spec12 (Dyneema), there is some creep in the line. I don't find this to be a problem on a given day, but sometimes over the course of a regatta where I build up weed of otherwise stress the line, I might have to recleat the line.

    3) If the line is slipping in the cleat, sand it with some moderate grit paper (120-300). This will take the UV coating off it, which is slippery.

    4) Some folks put their rudders down in the water, but there is a significant contingent that do rig it in the down position before launching and attach the rudder/tiller/extension as a unit in the water. I prefer this myself - ease, safety, etc, etc. Others prefer launching with it attached and rotating the blade down.
     
  8. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Re: Rudder Tie Down/Lose Tiller

    I don't like the idea of the pin as people say the mainsheet can catch on it. also, being hollow, a single hole for the pin will allow water in and it will be a nightmare to drain (probably require an additional drain hole or two).


    Ian
     
  9. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Re: Rudder Tie Down/Lose Tiller

    My tiller came supplied with an eye. To try and help this problem I changed it for a clamcleat - but the problem was actually worse with the clamcleat so I changed back to the eye. I think the position of the eye (as supplied by PSC) might be a bit too near the rudder as, when I put a loop in the rudder tie down line the loop is either too far along the tiller or stops the rudder lifting right up. I compromised with the rudder being able to lift partially and using a loop for a purchase. I don't (yet) have a problem with the rudder lifting, as I have the large bolt thing done up relatively firmly. Thus the line serves as both rudder tie down and tiller retaining line - except the give allows an irritating play after a bit. I will try changing the spectra for pre-stretched or something similar.


    Those using a cleat: what sort of cleat do you use ?


    Ian
     
  10. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Re: Rudder Tie Down/Lose Tiller

    Pic worth a 1000 words ?
    So this must be 2K

    Cleat is clamcleat - plastic

    There is a second method of leading the downhaul out the back and over the top of the rudder head. That works too..
     

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  11. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Rudder Tie Down/Lose Tiller

    Thanks! It looks like the clam cleat is big enough for two pieces of line to pass through. Is that correct?
     
  12. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    Re: Rudder Tie Down/Lose Tiller

    I basically tie it the same way as 49208, it works very well, and I make sure it is drum tight. I also have the big bolt on my rudder, and CRANK it down so my rudder does not come up, which solves the problem. And having the tiller very tightly in gives it all a very solid feeling, and makes it feel like one big unit. As was said earlier, I find the pin to be unnecessary, as all it does is hold the tiller in, and it will also catch the mainsheet. if you have your tiller tied in tightly, you have no need for it.

    When launching, all you need to do is keep your rudder/tiller under your trav on the deck, and when you are in deep enough water, or at the end of the ramp, just put it on and your good to go.
     
  13. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Re: Rudder Tie Down/Lose Tiller

    Yes
     
  14. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Re: Rudder Tie Down/Lose Tiller

    What do you do when returning e.g to a shelving beach ? Do you untie the line "just in case" (i.e. so the rudder can come up should it hit the bottom or a rock harder than intended. I wonder as I have ripped the gudgeon/pindle off a boat before (not a Laser and not coming ashore - but it is now always something I think about). I prefer the idea of getting everything well tied on the shore and treating the tiller/rudder as a fixed unit - but then there is coming ashore and I never seem to know how sheep the shore shelves.


    Ian
     
  15. markmod1

    markmod1 New Member

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    I used to have the exact same problem..was one of my pet gripes with the Laser...just watch a fleet of Lasers leaving the beach...everyone hanging over the back of the boats fiddling with purchase and rudder tie down.

    I decided to get the new micro cleat after speaking to others who had tried many other ways...pins..big cleats...etc

    I fitted the cleat and so far I am happy with it...prethread rudder down haul through it on the beach (rudder up) and back through hole in it (purchase hole) figure 8 stop knot to finish off. Set off from beach give the down haul a good pull to cleat it tight. Then couple of loops to take up excess line...dead quick and tight as a drum...

    You just need to remember to uncleat on beach arrival as the rudder if it hits bottom cleats on harder even more... so i uncleat offshore as i come in ready..(although i gybed by accident the other week when I managed to pull the tiller out of the head and went for a quick swim in the ensuing capsize!!)

    see http://www.lasersailing.com/shop/uks/product/5204 for details
     
  16. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    I have one of those cleats but not much joy. However, I was not using a purchase but directly rudder, along and through the cleat.


    I checked and with the "standard" pre-stretch line you cannot get a loop round the cleat (becket thingy) and then the line back through the cleat. Are you using the spectra for your tie down ?


    Ian
     
  17. markmod1

    markmod1 New Member

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    yes i believe so..its the line that comes in the UK spec XD kit pack..you have to remove the standard rudder line and then thread the XD spec line thru the rudder hole and tie a couple of stop knots...I don't form a loop around the cleat as part of the tie down (only to get rid of excess line so it doen't end up in the traveler/ mainsheet blocks) I just use the cleat to really pull and cleat off. This hasnt come undone yet and has to be physiacally undone to get it to uncleat (it cleats on the pull towards you..some other cleat on the pull up of the line but some friends who have used these have had them come undone) This cleat is fairly new in the clam cleat range..I heard it was developed specially for laser (hence the purchase hole in it...its also very very small and with a strong grip)
     
  18. markmod1

    markmod1 New Member

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    it doesnt go back thru the cleat...only towards the bow end of the tiller and not back again towards the stern
     
  19. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    I think I've been being daft. I've just had another look and my cleat and there is a gap for the line UNDER the cleat !! (I feel daft as I'd been trying to loop round the "bar'ish bit" that keeps the line in the cleat <<insert an I'm dumb" smiley here>>.


    I'll refit the cleat, though will probably leave the existing eye on the tiller as well. I did find the eye positioned to far back on the tiller so when you tie a loop for purchase in the line the tiller will not raise fully up.


    One reason I'm keen to get it sorted was that last week, wind was really shifty (90 deg shifts) and gusty and whilst I was messing around with the tiller, main went way beyond 90 degrees, wind shifted and gusted and I went swimming.


    Ian
     
  20. Chainsaw

    Chainsaw Brmmm Brmmm

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    I had a carbon tiller that didn't fit well, so I used epoxy filler to reshape the rudder head end of the tiller and now it locks all day everyday no problem. Just a firm push will do it, no need for a mallet. The closer the fit in that tiller head, the more likely it will lock with friction. Take your time shaping it, get it right.

    I walk my boat out to thigh depth, put the rudder blade fully down and tighten everything up with the spectra lock line through an aluminium cam cleat.

    (Note here that alloy and carbon don't mix, so you'll need a rubber or silicone pad under the cleat.)

    When coming back to shore I pop the spectra line out of the cleat, come up head to wind and jump out at thigh depth again. No problems. The cleat I use does not have a guide, it's a standard open top cam cleat.

    This system isn't (dare I say it :rolleyes: ) "idiot proof." You do need to remember to uncleat the locking line during a blow when coming into shore to avoid possible damage.

    If you are also new to sailing and feel you can't judge the depth of the water by eye, you may need a different method too.
     

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