Rooster Video

144679 said:
got both upwind and donwind n both are superb THE best sailing dvds i seen
The problem I find with sailing vids/dvds and, for the matter, books is the emphasis on sea sailing with lots of advice and tips for waves/surfing. For us lake sailors, waves aren't much of an issue!
 
Just scale the techniques to the conditions you do sail in. Surely you are moving your weight forward and backward upwind in even small lake chop?
Even the smallest waves affect a laser.

Just like open water, there are moments of flat water and choppy water (what
about boat wake?)

besides, they have to be fun to watch. I can't wait to get a copy.
 
MScott said:
Just scale the techniques to the conditions you do sail in. Surely you are moving your weight forward and backward upwind in even small lake chop?
Even the smallest waves affect a laser.

Just like open water, there are moments of flat water and choppy water (what
about boat wake?)

besides, they have to be fun to watch. I can't wait to get a copy.

We're talking very small lake here, about 50 acres in a very rough 'L' shape - there's never anything like a wave, and they only power boat on it is the safety boat. Another thing about vids books etc. is they all assume a standard course - some races we go around six marks in a very convoluted course!
 
uh. sorry. guess you won't be buying it then.

the majority of laser sailing is done on standard
courses in lakes big enough to generate enough
chop to affect a 12 foot boat.

If I were making the video, I'd do exactly the
same thing.
 
crazyuncle said:
The problem I find with sailing vids/dvds and, for the matter, books is the emphasis on sea sailing with lots of advice and tips for waves/surfing. For us lake sailors, waves aren't much of an issue!

True enough. In the books/dvd's I've been studying the emphasis is indeed on surfing, e.t.c. However, I guess the reason is that the books/dvd's usually are catering to the crowd that is super serious to get as good as possible. They assume that you are going to get into regionals and nationals ( or trying to) and they give you all of it (and , I suppose, that most really big races are in ocean areas?? Or places like the Gorge???.

I mean, if you just get on the Laser, and simply sail it ( remembering to lean out a bit on the upwind and reaching bits, and scoot more inboard when you are going downwind ---tippy little thing), then you can sail it like any other boat---what's to learn??? Just go out sailing and enjoy.....

I want to get serious about it and learn all I can. I live in Miami so I'll be doing some practice on the wide parts of the intracoastal (read--variants of 'choppy') and the ocean--much better surfing opportunities...

I like the previous response that said tailor the methods for your conditions..My dvd's have everything from non-existent air to screaming surfing off Frances' coast (Lasercoach2000)...
 
I'll try to make the point that I made ealier. I have sailed a laser in everything under the sun. Small regattas on small lakes, the mississippi river, gulf of mexico, lake michigan, huron, and superior.

I am here to tell you that if you are "serious" about making your boat go fast and faster than you competitors, every wave f@#$%^ matters. You can surf a laser on very small waves. A very small wave, (in)correctly placed can slow you WAY down. They all impact the hull. If you think that just because you are on a lake that you don't have to figure out how to surf or get around waves that will slow you down, you are wrong. Watch the dvds and learn what you can about them. People make these types of movies because that is where the majority of their target audience sails. That is where a majority of the competitive events are held- big and small. Quit whining.
 
MScott said:
I'll try to make the point that I made ealier. I have sailed a laser in everything under the sun. Small regattas on small lakes, the mississippi river, gulf of mexico, lake michigan, huron, and superior.

I am here to tell you that if you are "serious" about making your boat go fast and faster than you competitors, every wave f@#$%^ matters. You can surf a laser on very small waves. A very small wave, (in)correctly placed can slow you WAY down. They all impact the hull. If you think that just because you are on a lake that you don't have to figure out how to surf or get around waves that will slow you down, you are wrong. Watch the dvds and learn what you can about them. People make these types of movies because that is where the majority of their target audience sails. That is where a majority of the competitive events are held- big and small. Quit whining.

Umm mister super smart Laser sailer, can you make your boat surf on NO WAVES AT ALL? Which is basically what I sail on every weekend. Attached pic was taken in a Force 4/5 wind - kindly tell me which 'f@#$%^' wave you would have been surfing down/avoiding.
And yes, I am serious about getting faster but first I have to get better in the conditions I have, not where I'd like to be in 5 years time. So basically, if I'm going to lash out 50 odd quid on a training aid I'd quite like it to be relevant to my immediate needs, thank you very much. That's not whining.
 

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MScott said:
there ARE waves where you sail. you will not convince me
otherwise

Let's keep the tone civil, please. I'm interested in this discussion, because the conditions in the picture are like where I sail, and almost every inland reservoir in America. I sail in a no-wake zone, too, so rarely any powerboat waves.

So MScott, are you calling the tiny chop in the pictures waves? What would you do differently to sail in it than in completely flat water? I'm not challenging what you say. I'm seeking instruction here.

BTW, the Boat Whisperer is at the top of my Xmas list. Even if I don't get to sail in it, I can be entertained by it.

Merrily
 
I find it funny that people think that I am attacking them or something like that. Sorry I used capital letters-geesh. So, for the record, I am being civil and not attacking anyone.

Ok, here's what I mean. Lakes generally do not generate big waves, but they do generate small waves, sometimes fairly steep ones, and in short periods of time. Additionally these waves are almost always close together. All I meant was that if what you do when you are sailing upwind (even in the smallest of chop) is "lean out a bit" and watch the scenery go by, you are NOT maximizing your boatspeed upwind (sorry capitals again). I contend that upwind, no matter what the windspeed, you will almost always encounter waves (chop, whatever you want to call it, whatever the size and shape) that WILL affect your boatspeed. You can counteract that by shifting your body weight fore and aft as well as twisting your shoulders athwartships. You don't have to do this, but in a race, whoever does it better will beat you.

Now, downwind. On small lakes on breezy days there will be small lake chop, no? I, again, contend that those waves affect your boatspeed. So, maybe you aren't surfing them, I never said you should be. I said maybe you could be. What you should be doing, however, is avoiding running into them and being ready, if for any reason (boat wake, acts of god) there is one you can catch for a little surf.

Last month I tried keeping up with Brad Funk downwind in 12, maybe 14 knots of offshore wind (read: small almost nonexistent, very lake-like waves). Guess who was surfing every wave he could and guess who won every race. Hint: not me.
 
MScott said:
:eek: who is that guy? tell him to shut the hell up

Well, no, but I'd appreciate it if I don't have to keep editing out the f word, which I WILL do. There's those caps, which I mean.

Merrily
 
MScott said:
if what you do when you are sailing upwind (even in the smallest of chop) is "lean out a bit" and watch the scenery go by, you are NOT maximizing your boatspeed upwind

In response, I was simply refering to the fact that there are folks out there who are quite happy with just sailing ( although why they would want a fast 'planer' like the Laser is beyond me) "just get out there and sail the thing".

In my studying of Laser racing technique and scrutinising the Lasercoach 2000 dvd, Sure...EVERY wave affects how the Laser moves. You don't 'work-the -waves' you don't stand a chance of winning..( all this before I have spent even one minute in a Laser....lol....treating myself for XMAS...
 
Merrily said:
Well, no, but I'd appreciate it if I don't have to keep editing out the f word, which I WILL do. There's those caps, which I mean.

Merrily
Good job, Merrily!
Can't we...can't we all just get along?
 
crazyuncle said:
We're talking very small lake here, about 50 acres in a very rough 'L' shape - there's never anything like a wave, and they only power boat on it is the safety boat. Another thing about vids books etc. is they all assume a standard course - some races we go around six marks in a very convoluted course!

I agree with CRAZYUNKLE about the lack of info on small lakes (BTW - "The Science of Sailing" by Bill Robinson has an excellent section on this topic). I think the reason is that all major championships are sailed in open water.

I also agree with MSCOTT about small waves occuring on small lakes. It's worth learning about wave "fetch" - the distance over water on which wind blows without changing direction. This often results in short, sharp chop on inland lakes when it been blowing over 15kts for over 30 mins or so. I saw a surfing film the other day where they were riding waves in freshwater lakes of Canada - but it took days of wind from one direction to provide the right conditions.

Sail flat and bow down upwind, punching through the crests. You should be taking spray into your cockpit, but not submerging the bow.

Downwind it allows you to sail the boat more physically, pumping the sheet over each wave, rolling the boat. Use little tiller, use the hull to steer. You won't actually "surf" far, but you will sail faster.
 
MasterMike said:
Good job, Merrily!
Can't we...can't we all just get along?

Just to elaborate on the bickering for just a moment.
One of the main goals of The Laser Forum is to provide a friendly enviroment for sailors of all levels and backgrounds. Please remember to be friendly. This site will not take the path of Sailing Anarchy where a question can't be asked without a smart answer.

Back to the video now...
 
Wow! What a great series of fine posts?!!

Full contact sailing! I still believe full contact sailing with fisticuffs and hair pulling is the answer for some of the problems of the world today.

If these two guys could leap onto one another's boats...

They would of course realize that they had just traded boats, had no one to punch, and most of all had better do whatever possible to make the other guy's boat get to the finish line as fast as possible.

And for Bradley??

Ain't no way anyone could call this a "smart" answer.

Sheesh...I wonder how Shevy would respond to a new Rooster Video??

Is the video a Turkey?

Did some of us eat turkey last week?

Is Shevy in Turkey?

Will the posters from above start calling me a fturkey?

No Merrily won't allow fwords

And that should keep my name off this thread.

Now about that video.

isn't there some sort of rule about sticking to te subject??

Is the rooster video something to crow about or not??

Don't be a chicken about commenting.

Here i am cooped up in my office.

I'm egging you guys on?

Who is the phox in this henhouse? sorry about the spelling but we have rules about fwords
 
Well Phred, maybe you can become an administrator here and be the "on topic" police. Just watch the phowl language.

Merrily
 
Like stated on the Laser Sailcoach ccdrom:
Ther is no such thing as flat water...!!!

Remco Siderius
Amsterdam
Netherlands
 
MScott said:
I find it funny that people think that I am attacking them or something like that. Sorry I used capital letters-geesh. So, for the record, I am being civil and not attacking anyone.

Ok, here's what I mean. Lakes generally do not generate big waves, but they do generate small waves, sometimes fairly steep ones, and in short periods of time. Additionally these waves are almost always close together. All I meant was that if what you do when you are sailing upwind (even in the smallest of chop) is "lean out a bit" and watch the scenery go by, you are NOT maximizing your boatspeed upwind (sorry capitals again). I contend that upwind, no matter what the windspeed, you will almost always encounter waves (chop, whatever you want to call it, whatever the size and shape) that WILL affect your boatspeed. You can counteract that by shifting your body weight fore and aft as well as twisting your shoulders athwartships. You don't have to do this, but in a race, whoever does it better will beat you.

Now, downwind. On small lakes on breezy days there will be small lake chop, no? I, again, contend that those waves affect your boatspeed. So, maybe you aren't surfing them, I never said you should be. I said maybe you could be. What you should be doing, however, is avoiding running into them and being ready, if for any reason (boat wake, acts of god) there is one you can catch for a little surf.

Last month I tried keeping up with Brad Funk downwind in 12, maybe 14 knots of offshore wind (read: small almost nonexistent, very lake-like waves). Guess who was surfing every wave he could and guess who won every race. Hint: not me.

OK, let's start again then.
Of course you're right that there is chop on a small lake in high winds. However, on the lake I sail (I can't comment on the lakes others sail) there is no form (it has no apparent direction or pattern) or substance (its no more than 4 maybe 5 centimetres tall) to it and it is impossible to avoid because all you would do is sail into another area of exactly the same chop. For that same reason it is impossible to surf because the waves have no fetch - on a small lake the confines of the shore simply turn in possible waves in on themselves (try dropping a handful of gravel into a puddle an you'll see exactly what I'm talking about). Of course it slows you down but basically you just power your way through it - there is no way of gaining an advantage as there is when you sail waves and wave patterns right.
BTW, given my relative inexperience I've asked the better sailors at the lake (some of whom have sailed to a pretty high standard on all kinds of water) what their opinion is. They all agree, on this lake there is no sailable wave pattern.
 
I must admit, when sailing downwind on closely spaced lake chop, your main concern is usually sailing through them as smoothly as possible. I guess my argument stems from many experiences I've had in small wave conditions where surfing was effective.
 
Dialog! Good...I like it.....Sweet!

(Do you guys remember those videos of hard core sailboarders going for speed records? They did it in a flat region on narrow long ponds. The wind was howling, but the canal-like things they were on were like glass. These guys were screaming along at something like 30 mph, I can't remember, but fast. And totally smooooth. So it's possible.)
 
Hi Guys,

I got the CD last Thusday and it IS very informative (sorry 'bout the caps) and it IS very much oriented to heavy wind, wave sailing. There are one or two chapters toward light wind technique, but even with these infformative chapters, the wind seems to be around five knots.

Yesterday the wind on our small lake (man made from a dried out river) was two, maybe three MPH. You knew you were flying if the water wasn't glass. Now I know most RC's would put the cat in the hat up, but this is commonplace for us out in the desert.

My only wish is that someone would address those in the minority and realize that there are people sailing in LIGHT wind without waves.

Was 8783, now 183890. Not much changed in three decades.
 
I do feel your pain. I have lived and sailed in places with chronic light air. My advice: move. No, really, just kidding. I guess in a way this phenomena of light air sailing being under-represented is that it may simply be less complicated. I mean, we aren't even supposed to be racing in under three knots acccording to class rules, right? Boat handing is really just condensed and slowed down. The most important thing I have learned is to minimize movement as much as humanly possible and try to keep the dang thing moving.

As soon as you add more wind velocity and wave height (even just a little bit) boat handling comlexity increases IMO>
 

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