Rig-swapping vs. separate Radial fleet

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by torrid, May 13, 2009.

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At Masters events, which would you prefer?

Poll closed Jun 12, 2009.
  1. Rig-swapping

    10 vote(s)
    40.0%
  2. Separate Radial fleets

    15 vote(s)
    60.0%
  1. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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  2. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    For me, too many variables to vote. A lot must depend on fleet sizes (when split into Std and Radial), duration of regatta (e.g. 1 day staying out over lunch or 7 days), etc.

    Ian
     
  3. Boatman

    Boatman New Member

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    Rig swapping is great for the light guys but bad news for the heavier guys. ie light guys sail with standard rig in light airs and sail with radial rig in strong wind.

    :)
     
  4. bjmoose

    bjmoose Member

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    This "Major and Important Poll" now stands at an absolutely great example size to illustrate what we're talking about: 10 voters, 4 in favor, 6 against.

    Take a fairly typical somewhat "minor" event (perhaps a district masters "championship") where 10 boats show. Would you rather have a single fleet of 10 lasers to race against, or a 6 boat "standard" fleet and a 4 boat "radial" fleet? That's what we're talking about here.

    At major events like the Masters Worlds where they're holding the line at a maximum of 100 boats (or whatever the limit is - can't be bothered to check for this post) and you can have a 50 boat standard fleet and 50 boat radial fleet - then sure obviously in separate big fleets heavies race against heavies and lighties race against lighties.

    But that's not the situation the rule was created for.

    I'm actually kind of surprised the "gouv" brought it up. Usually he's in favor of anything that builds participation and inclusiveness. In this case, divisiveness and the "oooh, the other guy's getting an edge" mentality works against participation and building up the overall size of the masters fleet. And having too many masters boats is not a problem we seem to be having.
     
  5. pez

    pez Member

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    IMHO, you should put the 10 lasers on the course at the same time, have a top full rig award, a top radial award and a top laser award...

    It's hard for me to see this as important... but then again, I appreciate laser sailing without having a set of buoys to sail around...

    Choose your rig at the beginning and dance with your date.
     
  6. bjmoose

    bjmoose Member

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    Remember, in Maser's scoring, you're also breaking out scoring by the various masters' divisions,

    apprentice,
    master,
    grandmaster,
    great grandmaster, etc...
     
  7. bjmoose

    bjmoose Member

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    Even if it means on Sunday the wind comes up and some old guys stay on the dock?
     
  8. pez

    pez Member

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    I think so, yea... IMHO, part of the skill of sailing is to be aware of your conditions and potential conditions and react/prepare for them accordingly.

    Check the weather forcast... if it's calling for 5 kts Saturday and 25 sunday, make the decision between depowering a full rig or sailing a radial. If 9 old guys cant sail the full rig on Sunday, the 1 old guy that sailed the radial on saturday seems suddenly brilliant because he beat 9 other guys by using his head.

    Is it really that different from something like anticipating cold water and wearing a wetsuit?
     
  9. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    But then that is not really rig swapping - more combining two fleets to make-up numbers. Merging fleets is probably better than one (or two) small separate fleets but is not really rig-swapping.

    As I understand rig-swapping, when you sail with a radial rig you compete for what I would call "line honours" results (i.e. no handicap adjustments due to different rigs). Thus, chose at the beginning should really then make handicap adjustments as you are choosing a fleet - a bit like you have a radial and standard (and 4.7) events running at the same time, same courses, same start, etc.

    Maybe the best answer can be found be looking to the underlying reasons for the rule. Any rule will always work to the advantage of some under some conditions. If the aims are to encourage greater participation and thus larger fleets, the more constrained it becomes (and more disadvantageous to those who might make use of the rule), the less effective it will be at achieving its aims.

    How the rule works must depend on the particular event. If you have a limited entry event that is fully subscribed a few days after entry applications open then there is little benefit for the rule - you don't need to encourage competitors. However, a regatta that struggles to get decent entry numbers (and maybe runs for e.g. a week) then the constrained rule would not really encourage those it is aimed at.

    I guess everything is a balance. But then (as I said before) I am in that group that would benefit from rig-swapping so am hardly independent.

    Ian
     
  10. bjmoose

    bjmoose Member

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    I'd venture to say it's exactly the same. I dont make you choose your clothing up front for an entire regatta; you decide what to wear each day based on the water temperature and weather conditions as they actually are.
     
  11. pez

    pez Member

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    Yea, well said... my example wasn't the best... I'm still of the opinion that the rig choice is part of the pure sailing skill that is supposed to allow one sailor to rise above another, in line with the same philosophy that beget the one design concept to begin with.

    I'm actually of the opinion that the radial and 4.7 rigs run counter to the same philosophy, but I often dont know when to leave well enough alone :)
     
  12. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    just back from Wrightsville beach...

    I did a lot of chatting with a lot of folks about teh rig swapping...

    My current thoughts are lenghty to communicatebut...

    1. It is working pretty well and paranoia about significant adjustment of the swapping rules is well justified
    2. There is some concern about apprentices using the rig swapping as a tactical tool.

    3. Absolutely nobody wants to risk doing anything to keep any of the seventy year olds from doing anything they damn well please that might keep those seventy year olds out playing with us....We don't care is seidenberg and Tillman swap rigs and pound our fleets...we jusrt want them out there.

    4. Perhaps maybe we could start by discouraging those in the front of the fleet from swapping but not if number 3 comes into play

    5. Maybe there is something like apprentices in the top half or top 25% can't swap we could instal in the rule but we don't want the rule to get all complicated.

    6. The ILCA rules don't allow swapping at all so technicaly swapping is cheating but....we have agreed to ignore the rule... Perhaps this means we could still enforce teh rule against those who use it to advantage rather than use the rule to get by

    7. Aw shucks..Doncha know masters sailing is all about social fun and just being there and messing with getting super excited about who wins just messes it all up so chill...
     
  13. Krycek

    Krycek Member

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    I personally think that if you choose one rig you should sail that size rig for the duration of the regatta. That will eliminate a bit of the advantage for the light guys in light breeze.

    I'm a rather big guy who owns both.... but I always race full rig.
     
  14. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    Here's what I'm starting to see. Many people may say "separate fleet", but getting people to commit to that is difficult. Unless it is blowing 25 knots most will ultimately opt for the full size. Also, rig-swapping seems to encourage more overall participation.
     
  15. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    I think that is why I support rig swapping. One of the great strengths Laser have for me is the strict one design aspects - your result reflects your ability. Rig swapping in some respects breaks that and if I "rig swapped" and did better who would know if I had done better or if my rig helped in the conditions. However, on balance a decent fleet sizes probably better.

    Maybe one aspect is to allow rig swapping where the fleet is below a threshold number of entrants. If more than the threshold entrants, split the fleet, one e.g. std, one allowing swapping and one radial (or some combination and allow people to select their fleet and see how the numbers work out and then decide provided. Maybe not a good way, but I'm sure some brian better than mine can come up with some set of rules that only introduce rig-swapping where it is needed to keep decent sized fleets. That way, you still encourage participation whilst giving people decent fleet sizes and as far as possible keep the strict one-design (i.e. relax one-design/allow rig swapping only to ensure bigger fleets or "merged fleets).

    (Thinking aloud here so there might be undesirable side effects with what I'm proposing).

    Ian
     
  16. glasky

    glasky Member

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    I'd just like to see longer starting lines - bump and crash my be fun for some and certainly keeps dealers in business but 3 rows deep with some still unable to find any gaps gets a bit of a pain.
     
  17. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    A bit off-topic but when I used to do Fireballs, in the Nationals with large fleets they often used gate starts. I have not come across a gate start for years - are they used at all these days for larger fleets ?

    In one regard they were great in that they were "easy". Few choices to make, relatively easy to start in clear air. In many respects they took the starting out of the race - it was just a race, less starting skill needed which I guess would be good for some and not so good for others. However, in a large fleet with repeated general recalls, the were a great way to actually manage to get the race started.

    Ian
     
  18. PaulM

    PaulM New Member

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    When you get to the age were you are sailing master events I subscribe to the KISS principle (keep it simple stupid). Having to carry around two rigs and then deciding which one to use is far too complicated for my little brain.
     
  19. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    Yes. Do the heavier people have a choice over which rig they sail with? Many of them in my experience "don't waste their time" in drifting conditions and stay ashore.

    I have no objection to people changing rigs and sailing, as long as they score the points for the relative series, i.e. when sailing the radial they score their finishing place and a DNF in the full rigs fleet, and when sailing the full rig they score their finishing place and a DNF in the radial fleet. But it's wrong for anyone to be able to take advantage of the wind conditions and choose which rig will benefit them the most in the series, whilst the same option is not available to everyone else because of their weight or sailing skills.
     
  20. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    Don't the 505's do gate starts? I read that this has worked well in their big (100+) fleet championships.
     

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