Class Politics Preview: New Laser Rudder

Is there really a new class-legal rudder in the works?


Do we know anything at all about it, for example quality control, stiffness, etc?

Production date?
 
Hmmm. Foam biscuit? Sounds like the inside of the current rudder. Are you sure you were not looking at an aggressively sanded rudder?
 
IF the class ever came up with a new rudder it would be much higher aspect and at least a foot deeper then the old one...This looks like someones DIY project..
 
rock steady said:
I spotted a prototype of the new Laser Rudder being used at our State Masters Regatta last weeked.

Saying "new Laser Rudder" gives, probably, the wrong impression. It is supposed to be the same shape, dimensions, weight, etc., as any current Laser rudder. What should be different is the construction technique (maybe more efficient?) and supplier. As I understand it, there is concern that current blades are sole-sourced and from tools/methods which are "old." You see these "new" blades (no centerboards yet?) in Australia because the Australian builder is taking the lead on development there (like Vanguard has taken the lead with the composite spars).

Note that this is not the first try at "alternative" blades (remember back about 3 years at the last go round).

As I said, that is my understanding and maybe already a little out of date.

Tracy
 
Yes there is a centreboard as well (no pics yet). Sorry if I gave people the wrong impression. It certainly is a new build though.

It was exactly the same in dimension and shape as what we are using now. The rudder construction looks very tight, as if it would hold it's shape better than the current one. It also looks easier to maintain as the surface seemed very hard. On top of that it looked damm fine.
 
How flexible is the trailing edge compared to the current boards ?
And not that anyway has done it on purpose (maybe they have :) ) but how does the board respond to heat ? ie the old board warps when left in the car during the summer.
 
I spoke with the guy using this rudder while we drifted along on Saturday afternoon at the NSW Masters, waiting for the breeze. He said that new boats in Australia will be supplied with these from this week.

The production versions are built in the same way as this prototype, but will be lighter in colour. It did seem to have a much better finish than the current blades, and looked like it would be more resilient too. My understanding (which could be wrong!) is that these will eventually be supplied around the world from the Australian factory.

How did you go in the regatta Chris? It's always a great event.
 
Just speculating a bit....

There are literally hundreds of plastic molding companies around the world who could make tooling and produce a board exactly like the board supplied with the last 100,000 Lasers. WE CAN find a new supplier.

The introduction of a blade made with different materials will absolutely create "two different blades." One will almost certainly be perceived as better than the other in some condition. The "better board" will be the preferred board and one design Lasering will be screwed up just a little more.

If we believe we need another supplier to make Laser boards, we should circulate some specs, obtain a few bids, evaluate those bids and hire (perhaps for a short term test) another company...or two or three.

The introduction of an entirely new blade seems like just that.

If we are going to introduce a new blade we need to :
1. Tell the world we are looking
2. Look over the proposals.

My thought? If we are going to open the blade for development again, let's see what other blades will fit the trunks and last forever with no maintenance. Can we improve the performance of the boat? Can the rudder be made better? Can the blades be made for less money?

So...Is there any reason to scrap the current blades and replace them?

Note: There are probably 100.000 Lasers still in condition to race somewhere. New blades will cost those owners of those boats no less than $200 each.
This $20,000,000 decision seems like a no brainer for a potential supplier. It also seems like a no brainer for those who will be forced to spend the $20,000,000.

Hey sailors!! THINK!!!
 
Hi, Fred,


I am THINKING, all right, and I think my new "Big Olson" rudder is still the way for outlaws like me to go!

Dennis O.
Tomales Bay, CA
 
I think if a skipper has to worry about warping a blade because it's left in the car for a day, then yes there is a real problem with what is being offered (and controlled btw). I firmly believe that a new supplier should be sourced (yes, sailmakers too). No, this is not a call to make boats faster, just more economical. One design Laser sailing should not be as expensive as it is. I have no problem paying $500 for a sail, or $300 for a blade, but I do have a problem if I have to buy one every season.
See the difference? A better made part will not make the boat go faster if the specs remain the same. It should, however make the class more affordable in the long run. Boats/parts will last longer and have even better resale value than before. The only entity that won't like this are the ones that have been raping the pockets of Laser sailors since the class went olympic. BTW, at the prices we are currently paying for parts, better won't even cost more!
 
It sure seems like a dam shame to me for the Class to come out with a blade that has new construction and a better finish, but not to go ahead and change the shape so it won't stall out so fast when it heels over.

IF the new rudder really IS better in any way, everybody's going to want one anyway, so why not make it right?

When asked what he would change about the "perfect one-design" Laser, designer Bruce Kirby said "First I'd make the rudder bigger" (or words to that effect).

Yes, it will be a $200 upgrade, but hey, tons of people spend $200 on carbon fiber tiller extensions for little to no gain in performance and handling. Nobody's going to mind a new rudder that actually allows you to steer the boat in big breeze.

Why didn't somebody on the World Council ask this??

dyzzy
 
It sure seems like a dam shame to me for the Class to come out with a blade that has new construction and a better finish, but not to go ahead and change the shape so it won't stall out so fast when it heels over.

IF the new rudder really IS better in any way, everybody's going to want one anyway, so why not make it right?

When asked what he would change about the "perfect one-design" Laser, designer Bruce Kirby said "First I'd make the rudder bigger" (or words to that effect).

Yes, it will be a $200 upgrade, but hey, tons of people spend $200 on carbon fiber tiller extensions for little to no gain in performance and handling. Nobody's going to mind a new rudder that actually allows you to steer the boat in big breeze.

Why didn't somebody on the World Council ask this??

dyzzy
 
Hi,

An externally glass wrapped foam blade would undoubtably be stronger, especially along the trailing edge (TE). The centerboard TE is really inadequate as it is, as even a 120 pounder can snap off a 6" sharkbite by climbing on it the "wrong" way. I'd also think it would be very hard to warp the TE.

Presumably both boards are being prototyped in GRP. Hopefully they won't have to reduce the amount of steel re-bar to make the final weight. But, without reducing steel, a GRP board will be stiffer. Thus better in some conditions.

The drawbacks of GRP would include having less material to sand fair w/o damaging what can only be a very thin glass wrap.

The wood boards had stronger TE's, and were stiffer. So much so, that the class had to outlaw the swapping of boards. In this case I'd guess there will be some (many?) who will rush to get the new boards.

And if the new ones are brown vs. white? Well, that will only increase the "blade envy" factor. So, I think this is more like a 500-600. US$ issue, not a 200.

Al Russell 182797
 
Is it just me who doesn't mind the little rudder? it makes you sail the boat right. having a bigger one would make you lazy like those fireball sailing tarts.
 
dyzzypyxxy said:
It sure seems like a dam shame to me for the Class to come out with a blade that has new construction and a better finish, but not to go ahead and change the shape so it won't stall out so fast when it heels over.

IF the new rudder really IS better in any way, everybody's going to want one anyway, so why not make it right?

When asked what he would change about the "perfect one-design" Laser, designer Bruce Kirby said "First I'd make the rudder bigger" (or words to that effect).

Yes, it will be a $200 upgrade, but hey, tons of people spend $200 on carbon fiber tiller extensions for little to no gain in performance and handling. Nobody's going to mind a new rudder that actually allows you to steer the boat in big breeze.

Why didn't somebody on the World Council ask this??

dyzzy


Hi Lainie,
The goal was to be able to source the "same" blades from a different supplier and definitely not to enter into an R&D effort designing a new rudder and make a major change in the way the boat sails. In what was discussed "Same" meant same dimensions, same stiffness and weight specifications and built using a technique already allowed by the Laser Construction Manual. I am told that "GRP" is a technique already allowed by the LCM in addition to the reinforced polyurethane foam technique used by the current (sole) supplier (Crompton). So, if the "new" blades meet the requirements then we're going to see them soon. If they don't then, like the last time GRP blades hit the street a few years back, you'll never see one.
As to "better"... only time will really tell, but given the experience with the last round of GRP blades, I'm betting on another Hyde vs North war, always entertaining but with no solid evidence of one being superior to the other where it counts - on the race course. (We could ask our Australian friends who started this thread if the guy sailing the boat with the new blades won or not...)

Tracy
 
Yeah, but your're still making it different, so why not make it a real improvement to the boat?

If all the people seriously racing will buy one anyway, it makes sense to me to make it a whole new rudder.

Was this discussed? Was a vote of WC members taken as to who just wanted "same blades, different supplier" vs. "a whole new blade" from whoever would build it properly.

New rudder design was discussed at the 1997 WC meeting in Chile, and a new prototype rudder was actually tested by WC members - including me - in Melbourne in January of 1999.

It's not like it's a new idea . . . as I said earlier, Kirby has wanted to change it for years.

Busted Lainie

aka Gilgamesh - still throwing stones at the lions. From a distance.
 
We could have a much better rudder.

My other boat is a Hobie 16. It has EPO rudders. AIUI these are foam core with
an outer epoxy-fiberglass layer. They are stiff and won't melt in your car. The
rudders for the H16 are larger than the laser rudder, and they cost $250.

The easy solution would be to make them the same size and shape as the
existing laser rudder.

Switching to EPO would require a rules change, because it has a performance
advantage. Everyone would need to get one to be competitive. Is it worth
it to have everyone need to upgrade?
 
People need to buy $500 sails way too often in order to be competitive. Nobody complains. People complained about cost in advance of the control line upgrade. Now everybody loves it.

Why would they complain about a one time purchase of a completely new rudder that would improve the fundamental sailing characteristics of the boat?

It might even attract more new sailors to the Class, since maybe the boat wouldn't flip so many beginners on their asses first time out. Don't get me wrong, I love the boat but it does discourage a good many people that they can't just jump into this simple-looking little toy and go tearing around without a certain amount of embarassment and swimming.

Just my opinion but this is possibly the reason there are SO many Lasers sitting around in garages and barns all over the world. The boat is a beast in disguise.

180,000-odd Lasers built. How many in regular use? Worldwide Laser Class membership used to be about 20,000 if memory serves. Maybe double that many Lasers actually in use. Where are the other 140,000??

getting dyzzyier < knew I shouldn't have started, Tracy -all Fred's fault >
 
The plastic foam material used in the current blades could be replaced with different plastics whose properties do not include becoming soft at hot car temperatures.

Sorry, I must continue to believe the primary reason for a new blade comes from a builder who would rather build his own little pieces of plastic than pay a supplier.

At $100 a blade it costs a million bucks to buy blades for 5,000 boats. I KNOW the builders don't pay $100 a blade but 10,000 multiplied by any dollar amount is a big place to look for a chance to save money...

and I would expect nothing less if I were a stockholder.

But I am a consumer!!!!

If the monopolist suppliers of my toys want to make more money..Fine!!
Sometimes I need warranty coverage ond bankrupt suppliers give shit for warranty service.

If they want to mess with my game to accomplish their profit improvements, I will remind them that it is those of us who play the game who feed their Families.
They have always messed with the game when they felt they needed to do so and for the most part they have avoided damaging the game for profit.
The described motives for supplying a new design of blade are, to this observer, of questionable veracity.


I will at least respect them more if I believe they are being honest about their motives.
 
dyzzypyxxy said:
People need to buy $500 sails way too often in order to be competitive. Nobody complains. People complained about cost in advance of the control line upgrade. Now everybody loves it.

Why would they complain about a one time purchase of a completely new rudder that would improve the fundamental sailing characteristics of the boat?

It might even attract more new sailors to the Class, since maybe the boat wouldn't flip so many beginners on their asses first time out. Don't get me wrong, I love the boat but it does discourage a good many people that they can't just jump into this simple-looking little toy and go tearing around without a certain amount of embarassment and swimming.

Just my opinion but this is possibly the reason there are SO many Lasers sitting around in garages and barns all over the world. The boat is a beast in disguise.

180,000-odd Lasers built. How many in regular use? Worldwide Laser Class membership used to be about 20,000 if memory serves. Maybe double that many Lasers actually in use. Where are the other 140,000??

getting dyzzyier < knew I shouldn't have started, Tracy -all Fred's fault >

Nobody complains about buying the class sails because of price ?
crazy.gif
That's what half the replies in this thread are about.... If you look thru some of the old threads here, you'll see similar complaints about the cost of < insert any builder supplied piece of the boat >

I'm amazed that any changes occur given the size of the class and the number of people that seem to line up on each side of the
fence.gif
 
49208 said:
Nobody complains about buying the class sails because of price ?
crazy.gif
That's what half the replies in this thread are about.... If you look thru some of the old threads here, you'll see similar complaints about the cost of < insert any builder supplied piece of the boat >

I'm amazed that any changes occur given the size of the class and the number of people that seem to line up on each side of the
fence.gif

Fabulous!! How long have you been waiting for a chance to use that??
 
I have it!

Intensity blades! They would probably be very close to the exact contruction of the current blades, but only $50.00 each!!
 
dyzzypyxxy said:
Yeah, but your're still making it different, so why not make it a real improvement to the boat?

If all the people seriously racing will buy one anyway, it makes sense to me to make it a whole new rudder.

Was this discussed? Was a vote of WC members taken as to who just wanted "same blades, different supplier" vs. "a whole new blade" from whoever would build it properly.

New rudder design was discussed at the 1997 WC meeting in Chile, and a new prototype rudder was actually tested by WC members - including me - in Melbourne in January of 1999.

It's not like it's a new idea . . . as I said earlier, Kirby has wanted to change it for years.

Busted Lainie

aka Gilgamesh - still throwing stones at the lions. From a distance.


Hi Lainie,
Sorry for the long winded answer as an excuse for poor memory...
As you probably remember well, Mason Pepper, who served as Chairman of the Asia-Pacific Region until retiring just two years ago, would each year present to the World Council a list of possible improvements to the Laser. Among the items on the list was a new design for the rudder and I'm guessing the prototype you mention above was what he was referring to. I don't know what the sentiment of the WC was in 1999 (or up to 2002), but I know that in the time I have been on the WC that there is virtually no support for a new rudder design. My impression is that most WC members don't even think of the rudder when asked what things could/should be addressed on the boat.
So, this as background to say that I remember a discussion, several years ago now, about the blades in the context of a new supplier, I remember a discussion about NOT changing the blades but I don't recall an actual vote. Probably there was not a vote since, by sourcing the "same" blades from a new vendor within the context of the LCM, it is really a builder issue and not a WC controlled issue. In any case, given my reference to Mason's list, if there was a vote, given the sentiment of the WC then (and now), it would have gone against changing the rudder design.
While you make a good point about people just starting out having troubles with the small rudder, I tend to agree with Owyn's sentiment and think that the current rudder actually forces you to "sail the boat right." Perhaps that is one of the reasons that Laser sailors are the best sailors in the world (e.g. every one of the top five at the Star Worlds has a Laser background)? More importantly, I only partly agree with the "everyone will buy one" argument. Any "new" thing will immediately be purchased by the hard core racers IF they **think** it will give them an advantage. But... this hardcore group is, at best, probably around one third (one quarter?) of the actively raced Lasers (Fleet to District level) and an even smaller fraction of the actively sailed boats. Based on TLF, various email lists, discussions at regattas, etc., I get the message that the majority of sailors out there do not look favorably at having to purchase a new several hundred dollar part just to keep up. Even the "new" rigging (and thank you again Lainie for helping to bring that to us!), now some 6 years later, has not been universally adopted (though Robert Scheidt did replace the thimbles in his old school vang with blocks :D ) and you can find threads here on TLF with people asking if they can sail competitively without the upgrades. Very naively, I would think a bigger rudder would increase drag making the boat slower, so a new rudder would not be something you could phase in, you would have to mandate a change date and everyone would need one to continue racing. So, I'm personally not in favor of making a major change to the rudder at this time.
I don't know what happened to the rudder prototype you mention, nor any proposal for/against it. I'm guessing it was dealt with by the WC before I arrived. What was the feeling at the time you were on the WC?

Tracy
 
What was the feeling at the time you were on the WC? Tracy[/quote]

That meeting in Melbourne in 1999 was the last one I attended, sadly. Ian and Fred went to the next one in Mexico in 2000 as I was at a Trials Qualifier (or was it the Trials?) while the Worlds were going on. Fred? Do you recall any discussion on the rudder design in Mexico??

I'm making excuses for my bad memory here, in case you wondered. Wish I had all the e-mails that flew around about that discussion.

Unlike some others, Mason Pepper and I were in agreement that change was not fundamentally a bad thing for the Class, given that changes are made so very carefully and slowly due to the process involved. That list you mentioned had its inception at the 1997 WC meeting in Chile.

He and I were the movers in getting the control line package passed. We agreed that the rudder should be changed "in future" and that it was a priority item that would make the boat more user-friendly i.e. more sailors would be able to "sail the boat right".

I'll tell you, it really does - Dennis Olson has the right idea! You should try one of his rudders some time. Yes, it might be slower in light air, but it sure as heck is a HUGE advantage in hiking conditions, especially for short, wimpy hikers like me.

The goal, big picture as we saw it, was to make it so more people were able to be competitive at the top levels of Laser sailing. Not necessarily what was good for the top sailors, but what would be good for the most people. The control line package did that. So would a proper rudder.

Jean-Luc and Takao Otani were also in favor of development in general, as I recall. The rest were sort of "followers" ready to be convinced on each item. I'm in the dark a bit, having been "away" for so long - don't even know who's on the WC now.

Yeah, I was a pain in the a$$ at those meetings, for sure. But I figured they didn't pay for my ticket so I would nod and smile and go along with everything the builders dictated. I think I helped make more thinking happen and I was a consumer advocate no matter how often CJ lowered his eyebrows at me.

No reflection on you, kiddo, but everybody on the WC needs to ask themselves what they're doing for the average Laser sailor each year.

Cheers Lainie
 

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