Pointing Higher

Discussion in 'Capri/Catalina 14 Talk' started by Steve Spratt, Jun 15, 2007.

  1. Steve Spratt

    Steve Spratt New Member

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    I was racing in the Thursday night fleet and the other boats seems to be pointing higher than my boat. Any tips on pointing higher? Steve Spratt
     
  2. Ed Jones

    Ed Jones Secretary/Vice Commodore Staff Member

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    Steve - I'd need to look at your boat and see how is set up. But a couple of tips:

    Make sure the traveler is set up (see the handbook) so the boom is close to the centerline of the boat.

    Don't oversheet the main - the telltale on the top batten should flow at least part of the time. And the top batten should be parallel to the boom. Sight up from below the boom to check it. Adjust it with the vang. The main luff should have some wrinkles from the spreaders down.

    Sheet the jib so the foot is curled up on the deck a few inches inside the edge of the deck. Don't over-tighten the jib luff. There should be some small wrinkles coming back from each jib hank.

    Lastly - use your tell-tales! Always!
     
  3. fan

    fan Member

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    How old are your sails? Too old and you have no chance of pointing with a sailor with fresher sails. Who made them (North , Quantum, Shore. Catalina)? Get a Scott jib and get the sail maker to give you the turning guide for the boat. Rig set up is key along with the right sails. A Scott jib is the best followed by a Quantum. Loose rig set up with the right mast rake, main trimmed to near center line with the main sail leech a little open to get a neutral helm in 4-5 knots of wind when going to weather. Neutral helm is key! without it you're just dragging the rudder(also known ha the brake) around the race course. Crew and skipper sit forward with the trimmer sitting next to the shrould and the drive shoulder to shoulder with the trimmer.Also, if you haven't done so, ask the sailors in your local fleet to help you with your setup and boat handling.
     
  4. waltersrg

    waltersrg New Member

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    Both the North and Quantum tuning guides address jib trim, but are tailored towards non-furled jibs. Any hints on proper jib trim if you are using a roller furled jib?
     
  5. fan

    fan Member

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    Can you adjust your jib halyard tension with your furler type jib? It's pretty key in shaping the jib on a C14.2.
     
  6. waltersrg

    waltersrg New Member

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    I have abilaity at the tang to adjust the jib, but it's already at it's max. I think my halyard 'system' is about an inch short of recommended, so I'm going to have to lengthen it. There is one short section of 15" wire that I can replace with a longer one, so that I have some adjustment capability. there is essentially no rake in the mast as it stands.

    Right now I have the shrouds set up to give me the recommended distance to the transom (21' 10 1/2"), but the entire rig is pretty tight. Had it looser before, and was getting some massive flex on the forestay in any kind of wind (anything above about 10 knots).
     
  7. fan

    fan Member

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    The mast will flop around a bit in chop when sailing down wind and in breeze the forestay will flop a bit on a fast reach. To set my boat up in fast race mode, at the dock or on the trailer, I stand in front of the boat and grab the forestay about 3 feet above the deck . It will pull to plum. I get this by adjusting the shroud plates. Its loose and sloppy but quite fast and high upwind. For a wind range of up to 8ish knots the foot of the jib has some ease or roundness to it. Not flat or pulled on hard. If the jib is overtrimmed the boat is sailing slow and low to what it should be. Your mast rake of 21' 10 1/2" sounds fine. Hows the helm feel in 5ish knots of wind with you and crew on flat water? It should be neutral helm with the boat nearly no heel, main centered,(tell tales on main flying 50-70% of the time) going upwind (jib tell tales 100% flying).
     
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  8. fan

    fan Member

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    In the attached photo, the closest boat 2612, is in perfect form. The crew postion is grouped and forward. The forestay is sagged, the boat is flat and the main's leech is a little open. All this equals speed and height for these boats.

    The boat just below 2612, 2591 has a little too much heel at the time of the photo. When these boats heel that much they start to crab upwind, so even though you're pointing high, you end up sliding sideways.
     

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  9. Brian Janney

    Brian Janney New Member

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    The reason for the loose mast is to open up the slot between the main and jib. I have the loosest rig at mission bay. This is also because our Quantum Jib has the largest girths (Class max). To get the rig tension correct you should be able to grab the shroud and turn your fist 1/4 turn.

    The Capri 14 and Lido 14 are some what the same tuning wise. They are both wide boats with the jib leads out board. So by loosing up the rig it allows the top of the mast to align with the jib lead. This will open up the slot between the two sails and reduce leech return in the jib.

    Down wind it also allows the mast to rake forward and make the forestay looser (same thing as easing the jib halyard.) When you loosen the forestay down wind you can square the pole back further

    Brian Janney
    Quantum Sails San Diego
     
  10. Brian Janney

    Brian Janney New Member

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    Here is a picture of a boat I help set up, Ed Jones. The main looks good. the jib could be trimmed a little bit. But look at how we were able to get rid of the leech return.
     

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  11. waltersrg

    waltersrg New Member

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    Wow, guys, this is excellent information! thanks fan and Brian for the advice.

    It finally hit me that the loose rig allows the slot to open for reaching (duh!). Will fine-tune the rig as best I can before tonight's racing to get the 'looseness' back in the rig.

    Oh, and I'll also work on convincing my wife that the 'slop' in the rig is a good thing, and does not mean that the rig is about to come down. That will be a lot tougher than adjusting the forestay and the shrouds....
     
  12. fan

    fan Member

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    Brian is an excellent sailor , sail maker and nice guy. We're all lucky he checks in here. Thanks Brian.

    Waltersrg, The sloppy rig also allows the mast to lean to leward when the boat is beating to weather. As Brian pointed out, this helps to have a larger slot to pull the boat along as allowed by the loose rig. Great stuff for going fast and high.

    Regarding convincing your wife, please let her read Brian Janney's post. He is a high level sailor, previous national champion, expert professional sailmaker and wouldn't lead you down the wrong path on this.

    We run these same rig setting to go fast and the rig stays up just fine for years now. A bad forestay or shroud will bring down or loosing a pin or ring ding.
     
  13. waltersrg

    waltersrg New Member

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    Well guys, tried some of the rigging setups mentioned on this thread last night at our Smallboat Series, and I'm really pleased with the results!

    Got a 1 inch deep shackle from West Marine on the way to the boat yesterday, and installed in between the furler and the bow adjuster plate. Although I didn't get a chance to measure the 'forestay' length, I was able to get at least a little bit of rake to the mast. With the shrouds set up as described in the Tuning Guide, the rig had a little bit of slop to it. (I still don't have quite the flex in the forestay or the shrouds as described in the posts above, but it's a whole lot closer to the recommendations).

    Performance of the rig last night was noticeably improved in the 10-15 knot winds we had to start the race. Noticed sag in both the forestay and the leeward shroud as described, and pointing ability was better. Used the thoughts you gave on main trim as well, and was able to get good pull from the main as well as reducing the weather helm I had been fighting.

    Boat performance noticeably improved even when the wind died down to around 5 knots. Yes Fan, I was able to get rid of the rudder drag with a little trimming of the main and jib....

    End result, we beat a Hobie and a Bucanneer (on handicap), the first time that we've done this to date-- in fact, this was the first time that we've dug ourselves out of last place so far this season! Still a long way to go with my basic sailing skills (we're both rookie sailors), but the rig improvements were a big help....

    One more thing to try to get the mast rake and rig tension even closer to your recommendations-- I'm going to try a 2" shackle between the furler and the bow plate to see if that gets me to the recommended mast rake and flex in the forestay/shrouds.

    For any one else out there trying to race your Capri with a furler rig vice a standard jib, I recommend you think about putting at least a one inch shackle between your furler and the bow plate. What a difference it made for us!

    Thanks again!

    Glenn Walters
     
  14. fan

    fan Member

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    Great to hear! Sounds like your on your way. Now make a record of your measured set up settings for the boat so you have a base setup. As Brian mentioned, work with the traveler setting until you have it right for your usual wind conditions. Hows' the boat going downwind?
     
  15. waltersrg

    waltersrg New Member

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    I still need to work with the traveler a little bit. Can bring it up a smidge, to get rid of the small gap that I have between the traveler and the sheet when close hauled.

    Looking back through this thread, I don't think I understand the term "leech return" (from Brian's posts). Can anyone amplify on this a little?

    Glenn
     
  16. fan

    fan Member

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    When looking at the image Brian referenced the main is not being washed out/back winded by the return of the leech of the jib. The slot is working at 100%ish. Leech return from the jib on most sails would bend the wind enough to put air from the slot into the back of the main thus slowing the boat. Does that make sense?
     
  17. waltersrg

    waltersrg New Member

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    Yep, that makes sense. We see that happen a lot on the Capri 30 that I race on Wednesday nights, when we're using the big genoa. Not so much when using the #3.

    Makes sense when I consider the fact that the jib on the 14.2 equates more to the #3 in relative size. Just didn't know that "leech return" was the right term for it!

    Still so much to learn--which is what is making racing the 14.2 so much fun!!

    Glenn
     

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