please explain this

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by per_nulla, Oct 6, 2016.

  1. per_nulla

    per_nulla New Member

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    Since I don't know the proper terms It'll probably be tough for you to understand what I'm about to say but I'll try anyway.

    Out on the lake yesterday I had the sail full of wind on my port side (wind was blowing biggly from starboard) and the boat wouldn't go anywhere, I was completely stopped in the water. I moved the tiller extension back and forth, not rapidly like a jack hammer but just trying to see where I could put it so I could turn out of my stagnation, while sheeting in and out. This happened several times. I still don't know what I did to get out of it but a couple times I can out of it so violently I lost hold of the mainsheet and tiller. How I didn't capsize is a mystery to me.

    A side note:
    I was out on the lake of just about 2 hours. It was by far the most strenuous day sailing to date. I sure as #@$$& will be glad when all this makes sense.
     
  2. inlandfreddy

    inlandfreddy Member

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    Hi,
    the only way I can understand this is that you got stuck in the irons, with the bow into the wind. The slow and easy way to get out of it is to push the tiller away from you so that when the boat blows backwards it will turn the bow down and open the sail to the wind. To make it turn you also need to keep letting the sheet out, otherwise the wind forces the hull to stay pointing the same direction.

    After while the hull will point in a direction that is possible to sail in, then you can sheet in and hike to get going, but if it is really windy it can be difficult to start upwind from sliding backwards, if so you can to let the boat turn until you get to a reaching or broad reaching angle.

    Does this make sense?
     
  3. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

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    You were stuck in irons, as I believe they say in your language... (thanks inlandfreddy :D) That is, you were sailing too high into the wind for the rig to create a forward-pulling force. That's something that happens very easily in the Laser when you keep the basic (quite narrow) upwind sheeting angle and depower by steering higher. The solution to avoid this is to sheet out before that happens (while keeping the vang very tight). In gusty conditions you end up playing the sheet quite a bit in and out; it's something you will learn with experience.

    If you get stuck anyway (we all do, sometimes), you can sheet out fast and pull the rudder (and heel the boat) to windward, if the boat is still moving at all. If you're at a total standstill, your foils aren't working anymore, and you have to do the opposite: push the rudder to leeward, while letting out lots of sheet. That turns the bow away from the wind, and you can sheet in again and get going. A trick to turn the boat faster is to grab the boom and pull it to and even to windward of the centreline; you have to let it out again almost immediately, so you still need to have plenty of slack in the sheet. (True story: I learned this from a Singaporean girl in Greece, some twenty years ago.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
  4. wjejr

    wjejr Member

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    In addition to the above , if you lift the daggerboard, the boat will quickly blow off onto the new tack as the lateral resistance has been removed.

    Hope that is helpful to you.
     
  5. per_nulla

    per_nulla New Member

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    Hmm, I deliberately put myself in irons a couple times to untangle the traveler block from when it got caught under the stern corners. The sail was luffing. The time I'm talking about the wind was blowing hard from the starboard side and the sail was full. It was if I was anchored. Maybe it was the Bermuda triangle of Whiskeytown Lake. :eek:

    Every time out I'm learning more about the boat, sailing and myself. The more I learn the more I don't understand. :rolleyes:

    wjjer: I should've tried that when I got stuck. When I left the shore I forgot to drop the daggerboard and couldn't understand that no matter what I did I was making a beeline towards the pier. Then I noticed it like a ton of bricks; I shoved the daggerboard down and push the tiller (extension) away from me and that little boat turned away from the pier like go-cart. Averting a collision seconds away from hitting the pier, Now that as a rush!!
     
  6. fhhuber

    fhhuber Member

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    You can get yourself into the "heave to" condition, which will have the sail looking full, but making virtually no power, boat moving mostly sideways, but very slowly...

    You want to know how to make the boat stop in this condition. This is how you stop to pick up someone who has fallen overboard from your boat or someone else's boat.

    Normally pulling in the main sheet and straightening the rudder will get you moving from that.
     
  7. per_nulla

    per_nulla New Member

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    I think that what is was. About 35 years ago my Uncle (who passed about 20 years ago) Mentioned "hove to" to me when we were on Clear Lake. I heard he was a great sailor but unfortunately I really wasn't interested in sailing at the time to find out for myself. I got motion sickness so badly I stayed off the boat so much as possible.
     
  8. inlandfreddy

    inlandfreddy Member

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    Sailtrim can be a factor, with vang on hard to reduce healing moment and drag you also need a lot of cunningham so that especially the top of the sail is open enough and draft forward, to not stall. This thread, -"I keep stalling in heavy wind | SailingForums.com" might also shed some light on the issue.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
  9. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

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    Well... no.

    Heaving to - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Not the same thing. Different aerodynamics (applies only to boats with more than one sail), stable, and intentional.
     
  10. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    Getting into irons can be the result of carrying to much vang, particularly in extreme conditions. I've found easing a little vang before taking helps, but if I do end up in irons, definitely ease the vang, raise the centreboard and reverse the rudder will drive you out of them, if you can pull the boom to windward will also assist but isn't always possible.
     
  11. Rob Hair

    Rob Hair Member

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    We are talking about a Laser and not a Laser 2, right?

    At the risk of asking too basic a question, are you sure the daggerboard was not aground on the lake bottom?
     
  12. andyatos

    andyatos Active Member

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    Per Nulla,

    Here's my advice to help you with future on the water issues that you have questions about. Get a GoPro camera and mount it where you and the boat can be seen in the footage. The stern end of the boom, with a small extension even further aft, looking forward would work very well.

    That way, when something happens you can upload the footage to YouTube, post a link to the video here and say, "I wasn't able to figure out what I was doing wrong. What do you all think?".

    This would be very useful to all of us because without footage documenting the issue, we can only guess as to what you were doing wrong.

    In our hang gliding community, almost everyone has a GoPro or similar camera. This includes brand new students and novice pilots. And when these new students and novice pilots have a poor launch or poor landing, they post to our forums with a link to the footage and ask for feedback and advice. And dozens of very experienced pilots respond. This educational process works wonderfully.

    Cheers,

    - Andy
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2016
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  13. inlandfreddy

    inlandfreddy Member

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    Thoughts on sailtrim uppwind in strong wind to for me survivalconditions, please correct missunderstandings:

    A tight vang flattens the sail by bending the mast It also tightens the leech and reduces twist. Cunningham reduces leech tension to compensate for the vang, and moves the draft forward to compensate for mast bend and higher windpressure. With a really bent mast the cunningham also adds more to the mast bend with maximum vang maybe the wanted cunningham to soften the leech overbends the mast and over flattens the sail. The flatter the sail gets the stronger wind should be possible to handle without being overpowered.

    One problem with having the vang extremly tight is that an almost flat sail is very sensitive to the sheeting angle when it comes to driving force and boatbalance, so with increasing roughness in the windpush and the waveaction it can become a handfull. If the sail is sheeted out a bit to much the boat wants to lean to windward and the drag from the windforce slows the boat down fast. If it's sheeted a bit to hard the boat leans to leeward wanting to turn up and there is a lot of weatherhelm added because the windforce hits to far aft on the sail.

    When from this setting the vang is released a bit, the sail becomes a bit fuller the leech becomes softer and it might not be possible to point as high, the drag might increase, but the top of the sail twists of more and even more in gusts, the sail possibly aligns better with the differens in windangle between the top and bottom of the sail,and the sheeting sweetspot also becomes wider.

    I know on our little lake when the wind is to confused and strong I'm in trouble with to much vang even with all the cunningham I can muster.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2016
  14. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    "Proper technique" and corresponding sail settings varies on what people consider to be "survival conditions" and the water conditions. Sailing in flat water is different to a large swell or chop.
     
  15. per_nulla

    per_nulla New Member

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    Andy,

    Great idea. I'm going to search for posts on cameras for ideas but I'd greatly appreciate if someone would post a link if this subject has been covered.

    Thanks,
    PN
     
  16. andyatos

    andyatos Active Member

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    A quick search on this forum didn't reveal much. But over on the Sunfish forum, we recently had a discussion about video cameras. Here's the link.

    - Andy
     
  17. Eyeper

    Eyeper Member

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    Lots of good information in this discussion, but to get back to your initial inquiry about how to get "unstuck" from being in irons, Per, there is a very quick and simple method: Reach up and push the boom out away from the centerline of the boat. The bow will immediately start to turn away from the wind. Hold the boom as long as you can, than pull the tiller so you're steering in that direction, sheet in, and you are moving again.
     
  18. per_nulla

    per_nulla New Member

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    I just ordered a DBPower camera. As soon as I get a chance I'll see about recording the error of my sailing ways for all to correct. :)

    I know it's cheap but until I know what I'm doing the investment will be minimal.:rolleyes:
     
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  19. inlandfreddy

    inlandfreddy Member

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    One time I went in over my head when it was really disturbed wind and I could not find a way to get going.

    From beam wind with flogging sail two things happened. First I sheeted in normally and I actually sheeted the boat in under the sail not the other way around , then I sheeted in a lot faster while hiking as much as I could, becomming overpowered and capsized to the lee.

    I tried again and again, but ended up either in the irons or capsized. I didn't dare to sheet out more and maybe get going more downwind I don't think I could have handled that.

    Later in a lull, I got started and reached back and forth then called it a day. It was just to violent for me to have fun. And I had the radial sail.

    Also from this, stalling includes too much wheather helm with too little forward power. Less centerboard would give less wheather helm and reduce the heelingforce. Doing it again I will try to pull the centerboard up until there is a clear difference. Only tried it slightly before. I must play around more.
     
  20. per_nulla

    per_nulla New Member

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    Andy,

    I ordered the DBPOWER waterproof camera but because the camera is not waterproof I returned it. It's the plastic case that makes it waterproof. I really like your idea and will continue to do my research but I'm not spending $500 for a gopro.

    PN
     
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