Painting a laser hull

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by sail_moe, Dec 13, 2005.

  1. Georg W.F.

    Georg W.F. Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
  2. DaveK

    DaveK New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ok Compuman..... I'll be nice and not act like I'm on Sailing Anarchy.

    I'm a custom Harley painter. I know very little about the gelcoat process and would love to watch Fred do it sometime. But, I know lots about uros. I paint in whats called a 2 stage process. Base coat (color non activated) and then clear coat (activated). Clear bonds chemically with base coat. Sand, polish and then your done. My base coats are maybe .25 to .5 mils thick. Very very thin. There are paints with metallic flake in them but, they still spray to a very thin layer. Clear coat is 2 - 4 mils thick per coat. All paints, gelcoat or whatever when sprayed, will produce an orange peel surface. The better the painter, the less its there. The only time you can eleminate orange peel is when your paint is running on to the floor and now you have other problems. Not sure about what flakes are in clear or gelcoat for that matter. If were talking about molecular level size then, that's too small to worry about. Fred sprays in what I call a single stage process. His pigment, clear and activator are all spit out together. I say spit cause, its got to be too thick to spray. Fred's process is more durable. If that paint gets scratched, it still looks good. My scratch would only hold up as long as the base coat doesn't get touched. I believe also that, gelcoat is a much thicker process. Not sure about densities though.

    Really doesn't matter whats its painted with. Its how its treated in the final process of painting. After I paint a bike and the last coat of clear goes on, I am so far from done its not funny. I sand every part out with 600, 1000, 1500, 2000 and then finally 3000 grit sandpaper. Then I cut each one with 2 different types of compound and then finally polish. This part alone takes 16 hours. By this point, its a mirror finish and it better be, if your gonna please a Harley biker

    DaveK
     
  3. computeroman2

    computeroman2 Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16

    You're perfectly correct.

    However, i'm talking about the surface as in when you look at it with a microscope. again, it goes like this- glass (for example) looks shiny and feels smooth, but when we look at it under a microscope it's like sandpaper. I'm talking about the minute surface and how bumpy that is, not how shiny it looks. Normal paint is extremely rough at this level even though it feels smooth, whereas gelcoat has particles in it that allow very fine sanding to change the roughness at the microscopic level, not just the normal level that our nerves can feel. If you looked at auto paint and then gelcoat with a microsocpe, you would see a big difference.

    George, what's the biggest regatta you've ever been in? just curious.
    oh, and George, i obviously wasn't referring to myself. What do you take me for, a half-wit idiot?:eek:

    I wrote that after reading a couple of posts that had no truth base whatsoever and weren't helpful at all, not to mention i was in a bad mood.
     
  4. computeroman2

    computeroman2 Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    George here misses the point. In a hail of insults, i actually stood up for LF. Here's the whole post:
    "Laserforum is full of half-wit idiots who haven't ever been to anything more than club regattas and don't know how to sail.

    However, paige riley posts there regularly, and there is alot of good information about the laser.

    If you're looking for technical stuff, go buy a book. Not many people are well-versed in the physics of sailing, especially the laser (I am.), and you'll get bullshit answers both there and here for the simple reason that people don't care how it works as long as it works. Welcome to america. We are the fattest country in the world, we have the most cars per family, and we spend the most time on the computer/tv in the world. If you want good answers, go to europe.


    or.....

    here it comes-

    canada."

    And here are some other posts:
    "I have obviously been to that site and it is mostly filled with crap and people that do not know what they're talking about. I brought this to Sailing Anarchy because I feel this is a better place to have it. There seems to be more people here who actually know what they're talknig about and who take it seriosuly. they also seem to have excellent things to say."

    "good thing i am Canadian then, Nova Scotian actually...and i am past the point of beliving the shit i hear on the laser forum. yes a few well known and skilled sailors may post on it, but i am not digging through all the bullshit."
     
  5. Georg W.F.

    Georg W.F. Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Well, NOW I am in a bad mood, :mad: so I will call you a half-wit idiot?
    Oh my mood just got so much better by just writing that down that I am not going to call you a half-wit idiot! I hope your mood improves as well! :)
    So, the size of the regatta someone has sailed in is crucial to you? FYI: Any idiot with a Laser and some basic coordination can participate in the biggest regatta's. Since you asked it so nicely, I will answer it anyway: I have participated in some major events and plan to do a couple this year if time allows. Besides that, I do enjoy club-racing a lot, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. If you think that a club-racer is a half-wit idiot, please disregard this entire message, and all my other messages.

    In any case, anywhere on the internet, in books and in life in general you will need to make judgments about people's opinions. I am sometimes wrong, you are sometimes wrong, some people are wrong a lot, and even if your name is Ben Ainslie you are sometimes wrong.
    Even while Ben Ainslie is not on this forum, I think the forum is a tremendous resourch for many. I am quite sure that not a single other one design class has a forum that is as active and informative as the laserforum.

    Allright, enough! Let's talk about paint again.

    GWF
     
  6. computeroman2

    computeroman2 Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I agree back to paint.
     
  7. DaveK

    DaveK New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Whos making the popcorn??

    First of all, I believe that looking at a molecular level of anything, will loose in the bigger picture when considering boat speed. The density of gelcoat may in fact be less than auto uros. That means a larger chain, bigger molecules and a lighter product. Lets coat our bottoms with styerfoam....NOT. So, we can see that's not gonna work. Then try teflon or even a thin layer of lead. Is that a small enough flake for ya?

    Ok... I got it. How big is your army vs. ours...lol
    DaveK
     
  8. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    38
    That's enough of that. Back to the topic please.

    Merrily
     
  9. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
     
  10. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Paints for Lasers:
    Housepaint....really cheap. Hard to maintain. Comes off as powdery mess all over everything

    Alkyd enamel; Pretty hard. fairly durable. fades in the sun. Hard to apply thick enough to avoid scratching through . Wood can scratch it

    Linear polyurethane Urethane paints . Very thin coating will change the colotr of a laser and costs about $50 US minimum. Drawback? Unless you apply about $200 worth of the paint it is too thin to sand to perfection.

    VC Performance Epoxy with Teflon: easy to apply, takes about $100 to cover a laser hull. Super scratch resistant. Does not do well in sun. ...becomes powdery on surface and fractures in bazillions of small cracks. can be sanded to perfection but Perfection may ,make the boat ineligible for racing

    Gelcoat. has to be applied heavily to allow for full cure and to allow for sanding and fairing. CHEAP!!!! $200 buys a 5 gallon pail. laser resurface job after removoing entire old gelcoat. takes about 2 gallons. Can be used as a primer over porous surfaces. Can be applied with brush, roller, squeege, putty knife, or spray guns.
    can be sanded out and polished JUST Like a new boat.

    Speed through te water?? If you sand and polish the various paints to the same grit level???the speed through the water will be EXACTLY the same.

    Full speed is the shiniest surface you can make that has watrer sheet over its surface rather than gather in little balls.

    Yes..I do know what I am writing about....or not..

    I only have 36 years of professional experience in the field and recently I am forgetting stuff at a pretty fast pace
     
  11. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Hi gouv,
    just one small question to the worlds-master of the Laser-Paint. Do you mean paint like in the following link with "VC Performance Epoxy with Teflon"?

    http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa//prod...ion.asp?ComponentID=22029&SourcePageID=6660#1

    I used that paint for centreboards and rudderblades. [Spraying that stuff, I learnt, is most toxic (Zyanid-gas comes in the air with the spray of the paint)]

    LooserLu
     
  12. macwas16

    macwas16 New Member

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Since I started my hobby/buisness One Design Retsoration where I restore Lasers, I have studied the class rules thoroughly and have asked many officals their opinions. What I have recieved is quite clear: If you have an older boat with defects that you would like to repair/restore then it is perfectly legal to repaint the hull. I think we can all agree on this.

    As far as actually painting goes, I've done all my boats with AwlGrip. I tried Interlux Briteside once (a single part paint) and absolutely hated it. It chipped and scratched way too easily. Although the price tag was convienent, you'll spend much more time and money repainting it every season.

    But buyer beware, spraying AwlGrip IS NOT USER FRIENDLY. AwlGrip is a heartless, souless beast that you first must be able to conquer. Once you're good at it though, there is no finish like it. If you do it right and spend lots of time on the prep work, you'll get a mirror like finish that won't fade after a few years like gelcoat. The first boat I did I ended up re-doing three times because I screwed up so badly the first two. My subsequent boats have all been great.

    My advise would be to spend the time and the money and go for the rolling/tipping AwlGrip or a new product called Perfection made by Interlux. Probobly the ladder as it was made specifially for ametuers who want a good looking boat. As for me, I use a proffesional spray gun but that is only because I plan on doing many boats.

    If I could offer one piece of advise to those who want to spruce up their boat it would be to TAKE YOUR TIME! With Awlgrip and the other two part polyurthanes any mistake you make will only be highlighted. It has been said many times before but it is very true that a good finish is 90% prep work.

    Also, please please please do your homework. Know what to expect. Read all you can on websites and call/e-mail questions to the company.

    If you have any questions about boat prep or AwlGrip, shoot me an e-mail at: onedesignrestoration (at) comcast (dot) net

    I'd be glad and willing to help.
     
  13. Chris123

    Chris123 New Member

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    macwas16's words of advice and encouragement were spot on (and very much appreciated) when I was trying to put a reasonable bottom onto a beater laser last year; I ended up going the VC perf. epoxy (VC127) route because I didn't think it worth it to put a beautiful Awlgrip finish on a boat that was never going to be as stiff and light as a newer boat. Got an entirely acceptable (to me) finish -- could get a better one if I wanted to put in the time with sandpaper. I'm sure it'll chalk fast (matter o' fact it's sitting out without a cover right now -- anyone got a hull cover to sell?)

    As to macwas16's business, I believe he (he? she? never met in person) started it at a very young age -- an impressive accomplishment.

    Last bit of wisdom that has been passed to me by several people:

    THESE ARE NOT HOUSEHOLD PRODUCTS. UNDERSTAND THE SAFETY ISSUES AND DO NOT SCRIMP ON PROTECTIVE GEAR.
     
  14. Chris123

    Chris123 New Member

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    YES! YES! YES! Very important to cut through the BS and realize that surface smoothness and fairness (which is really just smoothness integrated over a different distance) is all that matters.

    Beading vs sheeting turns out not to matter. Surface smoothness is the only thing that matters. The material or chemical composition of the surface doesn't matter.

    With one asterisk: What counts is surface smoothness at the time you race, and not at the time you finish sanding. So surface composition matters indirectly:

    Surfaces that are soft and easy to scratch will lose their smoothness

    Surfaces to which little bits of junk floating in the water will stick, don't stay as smooth as surfaces to which little bits of junk have a hard time sticking.

    Surfaces that are easier to wash clean stay smoother than those that don't.

    And so forth.
     
  15. yaesumusen

    yaesumusen New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    My Hull Is Painted And Was When I Bought It .we Think When Refurbished In Europe By Laser Dealers.three Other Repairers Looked At The Hull To Quote For Repairs And Failed To Spot It Was Paint Not Gel Coat,so I Doubt A Layman Would Be Able To Spot A Proffesional Paint Job.
    As For Club Sailors And Indeed Sailing Clubs They Are The Life Blood Of The Sport They Make New Classes And Mass Production Possible.they Recruit,train And Encourage Newcomers To Our Sport Especially Youngsters Without The 180,000 Also Rans In Our Class,the Boat Would Have Not Been The Success It Is Today.
    This Forum Can Only Draw From That Pool Of Sailors Most Of Us Have Not The Time Money Or Ability To Sail At The Highest Level.
    Bestwishes Sean
     

Share This Page