What kinds of workouts are reccommend for the 35+ laser sailor. I have Blackburn's book, and there are some good workouts but it is geared to someone younger or someone who can train 5 days a week. I can train 3 days a week and sail maybe once a week. I weigh 180 lbs (82 kg) and am faily fit but my legs and back are sore after sailing.
Off Season Fitness
- Thread starter lasailing
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49208
Tentmaker
IMHO, the closest you will come to the best conditioning (which is time spent sailing) for legs is the #$&* hiking bench... it will also work your abs as well.
Wall sitting (back against wall, thighs parallel to floor and shins 90 degrees to thighs, ) and leg lifts are my next choices for hiking conditioning... but you need to be careful that you don't neglect hamstrings, if you over develop the quads and forget hamstrings, it's real easy to pull the hamstring running, playing bball etc...
Lower back - make sure you do situps, they help build the support around the trunk and stabilize, but for direct lower back work, Supermans are good, as are "hyper-extensions" (as long as you don't actually go so high as to create a lot of reverse arch in your spine.
I'm 42 and find cardio is equally important in conjunction with the above. Last but not least - stretching, especially with your comment about a sore back. Warm up, stretch, do the workout, and finish with stretching. Stretch in between races as well when sailing and when you come ashore.
Wall sitting (back against wall, thighs parallel to floor and shins 90 degrees to thighs, ) and leg lifts are my next choices for hiking conditioning... but you need to be careful that you don't neglect hamstrings, if you over develop the quads and forget hamstrings, it's real easy to pull the hamstring running, playing bball etc...
Lower back - make sure you do situps, they help build the support around the trunk and stabilize, but for direct lower back work, Supermans are good, as are "hyper-extensions" (as long as you don't actually go so high as to create a lot of reverse arch in your spine.
I'm 42 and find cardio is equally important in conjunction with the above. Last but not least - stretching, especially with your comment about a sore back. Warm up, stretch, do the workout, and finish with stretching. Stretch in between races as well when sailing and when you come ashore.
I have a program which I have stuck to for two years now, its taken me from a fat 85kgs to a fit 82 kgs, i workout for around 40 mins/day and i consider it more important then sleep. On day one I spend thirty mins on treamill going as fast i can but not running and varying the incline feature to really make me work, I then do 300 situps non-stop ( I have worked my way up to this). Then on the next day i do a weight bench workout, most of the possible excersizes on a 3 station gym, with 45 dips and 45 chin ups extra. Day after back to the treadmill. I find i can hike hard for 75% of a high wind race and recover quickly for the next race. Before I started I could hike hard for half the first beat, say 12.5% of the race, there is no easy path or miracle excersize.
Agree with 49208, cardio is very important, find a breathing pattern, i use my slow jog pattern for upwind in a big breeze.
Good Luck
Darryn
Agree with 49208, cardio is very important, find a breathing pattern, i use my slow jog pattern for upwind in a big breeze.
Good Luck
Darryn
will162878
New Member
Cardio IS important since all your "hiking pains" are due to restricted blood flow in your muscles. The higher you can raise your aerobic limit, the less lactic acid will build up in your legs meaning it will be longer before the pain starts to kick in.
U
Unregistered
Guest
Fitness
Sorry to post into an old thread.
I Cannot claim to be an expert laserer just yet but as a long time weight trainer i would say that if like most people you only have say 3 hours a week non sailing to keep in shape then meaningfull weight training is the way to go. As a very ex Cycle racer i think i dare to say that even a hectic laser race does not place drastic demands on VO2 capacity and only modest levels of fitness in this respect are required. So spend your effort where the payback is.
3 x 1 hours is more than enough but mix and match some cardio in. A lot of serious weight trainers get suprising levels of cardio fitness just from the intensity of the big lifts like squats and deadlifts but if you have not trained before it should take some time to get that kind of effort for even 80% of your workouts. Ideally of course every one does cardio as well.
Finally if you think weight training is about sets of 50 with dumbells, pec decks and lycra pants dont bother and dont mention my name
JohnW
Sorry to post into an old thread.
I Cannot claim to be an expert laserer just yet but as a long time weight trainer i would say that if like most people you only have say 3 hours a week non sailing to keep in shape then meaningfull weight training is the way to go. As a very ex Cycle racer i think i dare to say that even a hectic laser race does not place drastic demands on VO2 capacity and only modest levels of fitness in this respect are required. So spend your effort where the payback is.
3 x 1 hours is more than enough but mix and match some cardio in. A lot of serious weight trainers get suprising levels of cardio fitness just from the intensity of the big lifts like squats and deadlifts but if you have not trained before it should take some time to get that kind of effort for even 80% of your workouts. Ideally of course every one does cardio as well.
Finally if you think weight training is about sets of 50 with dumbells, pec decks and lycra pants dont bother and dont mention my name
JohnW
laser161116
New Member
Fitness
As far as Laser fitness goes, it doesn't take an incredible amount of strength to sail. Weight training doesn't hurt though. I think that endurance is the main thing. Active running should give you the strength and leg endurance to hike out flat the entire windward leg. Also, you need to have good abdominal strength to hike flat and move your weight when hiking. I'm only fifteen so I have a lot of time but spending 15 minutes on abs every night is plenty.
As far as Laser fitness goes, it doesn't take an incredible amount of strength to sail. Weight training doesn't hurt though. I think that endurance is the main thing. Active running should give you the strength and leg endurance to hike out flat the entire windward leg. Also, you need to have good abdominal strength to hike flat and move your weight when hiking. I'm only fifteen so I have a lot of time but spending 15 minutes on abs every night is plenty.
49208
Tentmaker
Re: Fitness
John, I have to respectivily disagree with you on a couple of points. First is to remember the orginal poster is asking about training for the 35+ age group, so any sort of heavy weight training at that age places a huge amount of trauma and stress on the joints (knees, elbows, shoulders) Recovery time is also much longer, it would be hard to lift heavy 3 or even 2 days a week on the same muscle groups, so you end up cycling thru the major body parts.
I've been a competitive power lifter until recently and that type of weight training, which you seem to hint at, is at the opposite ends of the spectrum for getting max performance from your body for sailing Lasers. I'll agree 50 reps is not the answer either for leg lifts, dumbbell shoulder raises(which help a lot for pumping), dumbbell curls (which help with steering) but you need to get into the 20-30 rep area, which means lighter weights. Training heavy translates into muscles which fatigue or cramp prematurely on the race course due to the latic acid buildup.
I can only speak from personal experience as far as cardio and VO2 capacity as it relates to Laser races (both short college type races and the longer races encountered at championship regattas) and will agree that the level of conditioning for competitve cycling of races longer then 10 minutes is far greater then needed for a typical Laser race, however it is higher then you can achieve thru weight training 3 times a week. My own sailing performance improved dramatically when I changed from a power building weight lifting routine with limited cardio, to a much more cardio oriented workout with much lighter weights and much higher reps. Much less cramping in the arms, able to straight leg hike much longer, and better O2 use which translated to smarter decisions.
No comment on the Lycra, but it looks pretty good on the opposite sex in the gym, which helps pass the time away on the treadmill, bike, stair climber, eliptical etc....
Originally posted by Unregistered
Sorry to post into an old thread.
I Cannot claim to be an expert laserer just yet but as a long time weight trainer i would say that if like most people you only have say 3 hours a week non sailing to keep in shape then meaningfull weight training is the way to go. As a very ex Cycle racer i think i dare to say that even a hectic laser race does not place drastic demands on VO2 capacity and only modest levels of fitness in this respect are required. So spend your effort where the payback is.
3 x 1 hours is more than enough but mix and match some cardio in. A lot of serious weight trainers get suprising levels of cardio fitness just from the intensity of the big lifts like squats and deadlifts but if you have not trained before it should take some time to get that kind of effort for even 80% of your workouts. Ideally of course every one does cardio as well.
Finally if you think weight training is about sets of 50 with dumbells, pec decks and lycra pants dont bother and dont mention my name
JohnW
John, I have to respectivily disagree with you on a couple of points. First is to remember the orginal poster is asking about training for the 35+ age group, so any sort of heavy weight training at that age places a huge amount of trauma and stress on the joints (knees, elbows, shoulders) Recovery time is also much longer, it would be hard to lift heavy 3 or even 2 days a week on the same muscle groups, so you end up cycling thru the major body parts.
I've been a competitive power lifter until recently and that type of weight training, which you seem to hint at, is at the opposite ends of the spectrum for getting max performance from your body for sailing Lasers. I'll agree 50 reps is not the answer either for leg lifts, dumbbell shoulder raises(which help a lot for pumping), dumbbell curls (which help with steering) but you need to get into the 20-30 rep area, which means lighter weights. Training heavy translates into muscles which fatigue or cramp prematurely on the race course due to the latic acid buildup.
I can only speak from personal experience as far as cardio and VO2 capacity as it relates to Laser races (both short college type races and the longer races encountered at championship regattas) and will agree that the level of conditioning for competitve cycling of races longer then 10 minutes is far greater then needed for a typical Laser race, however it is higher then you can achieve thru weight training 3 times a week. My own sailing performance improved dramatically when I changed from a power building weight lifting routine with limited cardio, to a much more cardio oriented workout with much lighter weights and much higher reps. Much less cramping in the arms, able to straight leg hike much longer, and better O2 use which translated to smarter decisions.
No comment on the Lycra, but it looks pretty good on the opposite sex in the gym, which helps pass the time away on the treadmill, bike, stair climber, eliptical etc....
The only thing that I have to comment on here is what I've learned from my mom who was proffesionally trained in fitness. Smaller amounts of reps with large weight = big muscles. Higher amounts of reps with smaller weights = finely tuned muscles. This is what we are aiming at, the finely tuned muscles.
From my own experiences, before I go to bed at night I do 40 push up and 40 sit ups (in sets of 10). Although I do not have bulging muscles I've realized how much srtonger I am now then I was. If I wanted to I could do 50 push ups in a row where as before I started this program I could do maybe 20. Now I know this doesn't include legs so for those....well, I'd say ask someone else. : /
From my own experiences, before I go to bed at night I do 40 push up and 40 sit ups (in sets of 10). Although I do not have bulging muscles I've realized how much srtonger I am now then I was. If I wanted to I could do 50 push ups in a row where as before I started this program I could do maybe 20. Now I know this doesn't include legs so for those....well, I'd say ask someone else. : /
G
Goonie
Guest
I have good leg strentgh from hockey and biking...
U
Unregistered
Guest
Re: Re: Fitness
*** Your a Power Lifter and therefore unattractive to the opposite sex
Good sailing JohnW
Originally posted by 49208
John, I have to respectivily disagree with you on a couple of points. First is to remember the orginal poster is asking about training for the 35+ age group, so any sort of heavy weight training at that age places a huge amount of trauma and stress on the joints (knees, elbows, shoulders) Recovery time is also much longer, it would be hard to lift heavy 3 or even 2 days a week on the same muscle groups, so you end up cycling thru the major body parts.
*** Have replied inside quote.
*** Well as a 43 Year Old i think with guidance you could work up to heavy weights (Heavy for the person in question) with say 3-6 months of conditioning no probs, but of course you have to take the individual into account. And i was talking about a 3 way split routine which as you know covers the whole body over the week.
I've been a competitive power lifter until recently and that type of weight training, which you seem to hint at, is at the opposite ends of the spectrum for getting max performance from your body for sailing Lasers. I'll agree 50 reps is not the answer either for leg lifts, dumbbell shoulder raises(which help a lot for pumping), dumbbell curls (which help with steering) but you need to get into the 20-30 rep area, which means lighter weights. Training heavy translates into muscles which fatigue or cramp prematurely on the race course due to the latic acid buildup.
*** I would say i think Power Lifting workouts are specialised for the purpose of max strenght in a few lifts and by definition PLers tend to start out pretty big and strong. Workouts like those can tear up a seasoned lifter used to more volume based techniques (10-15 rep range) let alone a newbie.
***I am of course happy to be disagreed with but the kind of action during Laser Sailing is fairly isometric (static contractions) and the ability to lock against a force rather than continuous contraction and negative contraction over a full range of a limbs range of articulation such as in running and cycling. Of course the ideal is a compromise between the two weights and cardio.
I can only speak from personal experience as far as cardio and VO2 capacity as it relates to Laser races (both short college type races and the longer races encountered at championship regattas) and will agree that the level of conditioning for competitve cycling of races longer then 10 minutes is far greater then needed for a typical Laser race, however it is higher then you can achieve thru weight training 3 times a week. My own sailing performance improved dramatically when I changed from a power building weight lifting routine with limited cardio, to a much more cardio oriented workout with much lighter weights and much higher reps. Much less cramping in the arms, able to straight leg hike much longer, and better O2 use which translated to smarter decisions.
*** Well i am on dodgier ground here. But i would attribute better fitness from say 1-2 x bodyweight squats and Deads than you do, but i suppose it depends on no. of reps/sets and the body type of the lifter and the effort put in. But a P-lifter routine is typically 3+ x Bodyweight for a few (6 or less) reps for 3 sets. Joe average cannot do this even if i wanted to
*** The points you make about Lactic acid are interesting as my own experience is mixed. But i would admit that whilst weight training normally, i get worse lock up in the legs whilst cyling than during a break in weight training.
But the only occasion i can think that i need that kind of muscle action Sailing is continual pumping the sheet in blowy conditions but that is when fitness counts so i am tempted to defer, but would make the point that the best cadio would be with a large arm component such as rowing machine. Hence my veiw is Running and Cycling is poor pay back sailing wise and that is from someone who loves cycling.
*** So i humbly retract my joke about 50 reps with the pink dumbells if its a Lasor sailor doing rows in his Lycra hiking over-pants.
No comment on the Lycra, but it looks pretty good on the opposite sex in the gym, which helps pass the time away on the treadmill, bike, stair climber, eliptical etc....
*** Your a Power Lifter and therefore unattractive to the opposite sex
Good sailing JohnW
U
Unregistered
Guest
Was Fitness
Funny enough i read in Dinghy Sailing magazine (UK) that Ben Ainslie was trying to get from 80Kg to 95 Kg bodyweight for the Finn class in Athens ?.
Thats 15Kg (33lb) increase and if that is to be an increase in lean body mass that is body building numbers (or a typo).
I am not making any point really, just we (or i) was talking about heavy weight training as it could relate to sailing.
Of course it would be a lot easier just to get fat but i somehow doubt that is what he has in mind.
JohnW
Funny enough i read in Dinghy Sailing magazine (UK) that Ben Ainslie was trying to get from 80Kg to 95 Kg bodyweight for the Finn class in Athens ?.
Thats 15Kg (33lb) increase and if that is to be an increase in lean body mass that is body building numbers (or a typo).
I am not making any point really, just we (or i) was talking about heavy weight training as it could relate to sailing.
Of course it would be a lot easier just to get fat but i somehow doubt that is what he has in mind.
JohnW
49208
Tentmaker
IIRC, I don't think Ben had put on all the weight he wanted when he won the Gold Cup, but we are in agreement that to gain weight you would lift heavy -
I went thru the same transformation 20 yrs ago, moving from a Laser at 170lbs to a Finn at 195 (optimum weight was lower then in a Finn) by lifting heavy. It was a necessity to increase body weight without getting fat, but it didn't put me in good sailing shape, I relied on 3-4 hrs a day, 5 days a week of sailing for that.
It was during that time that I caught the powerlifting/bodybuilding bug and ended up at around 215lbs a few years later.
I went thru the same transformation 20 yrs ago, moving from a Laser at 170lbs to a Finn at 195 (optimum weight was lower then in a Finn) by lifting heavy. It was a necessity to increase body weight without getting fat, but it didn't put me in good sailing shape, I relied on 3-4 hrs a day, 5 days a week of sailing for that.
It was during that time that I caught the powerlifting/bodybuilding bug and ended up at around 215lbs a few years later.
will162878
New Member
However, Ben Ainslie started in the Finn "underweight" and look how he did this season.
Real old thread here, but topical and worth reviving as winter approaches. My problem is that I am 160lbs, 5'7" and 50 yrs old and with a wonky back from too many years of working construction and playing football. It's almost a waste of time sailing a Laser if I can't get superfit and 170 so that's the goal for CORK in August. My plan is to pound on the weight (pun intended) with heavy lifting till Feb., then work in cardio as sailing season approaches. If I end up at 165 - 168 that would be okay. I'm seeing a fitness coach this week to work out the plan. I'll let you know how it goes. If something works for me, it will work for anyone.
Fuzzy Metal
New Member
I have a great Idea. Go talk to a sailing coach who actually knows what they are doing instead of profecising what to do here befor you all go and do some damage. If you can't find a sailing coach find a trainer as Rob has done. Take with you Michael Blackburns book on sailing fitness ... which you have already read ... for the trainer to read and get an understanding of the sport.
Merrily
Administrator
RobKoci said:
Good luck with the plan. Watch the knees too! Pilates might help your back. I've been doing it for a couple of years and have never had such a strong back and abs. It stretches you at the same time you work the muscle. I have no problem with my back with hiking.
I also lift weights and swim with fins or cycle. I'm similar weight and age, and it took a couple of years to get the fitness levels I wanted. I'm still making cardio and strength gains and only work out three times a week usually, plus sailing. Consistency is important.
Janet
Rob, have you read Michael Blackburn's book? Mike did his PhD in Laser fitness before getting the Laser bronze medal as you probably know.
He rates weight training as being 10% less effective than cycling. He also gives an ideal weight range of 172-181 lb, and I've raced against him in light airs when a 194lb sailor beat Michael and a mid-fleet two-time Olympian. The 194lb guy who won that light-air regatta has since won a Masters worlds, so maybe being heavier than 170lb is not a complete "waste of time"??
Good luck with it.
He rates weight training as being 10% less effective than cycling. He also gives an ideal weight range of 172-181 lb, and I've raced against him in light airs when a 194lb sailor beat Michael and a mid-fleet two-time Olympian. The 194lb guy who won that light-air regatta has since won a Masters worlds, so maybe being heavier than 170lb is not a complete "waste of time"??
Good luck with it.
Re: Off Season Fitness - growing old rots
Last summer was my first time back on the water in 20+ years; I crewed on Scows and messed around with my own Laser. Im 46 and was 230 lbs.
This winter Im trying to get down to 215 lbs by doing group Pilates three days a week and group cardio (cycling/RPM grops) three days a week. My goal is to increase my overall core strength and function. So far the Pilates has helped alot in Curling (the ice kind -not bicep). Im also counting on the Pilates and cardio to help out with Snowboarding this winter.
My biggest problem last season was elbow pain -epicondylitis, or "tennis elbow". Hauling in chutes on the scows and sheeting in on Lasers, particularly in stiff winds, has caused a good deal of epicondylar pain. To compensate, I did more with my shoulders -which resulted in bicep tendon pain. Growing old sucks.
My season is now officially over. My "home" lake boat partk on Lake Mendota closed in October. My alternate lake (Beaver Dam Lake) started icing up two weeks ago .. so I finally but the old gal away for the winter. It's was about 2 degrees F this morning.
Last summer was my first time back on the water in 20+ years; I crewed on Scows and messed around with my own Laser. Im 46 and was 230 lbs.
This winter Im trying to get down to 215 lbs by doing group Pilates three days a week and group cardio (cycling/RPM grops) three days a week. My goal is to increase my overall core strength and function. So far the Pilates has helped alot in Curling (the ice kind -not bicep). Im also counting on the Pilates and cardio to help out with Snowboarding this winter.
My biggest problem last season was elbow pain -epicondylitis, or "tennis elbow". Hauling in chutes on the scows and sheeting in on Lasers, particularly in stiff winds, has caused a good deal of epicondylar pain. To compensate, I did more with my shoulders -which resulted in bicep tendon pain. Growing old sucks.
My season is now officially over. My "home" lake boat partk on Lake Mendota closed in October. My alternate lake (Beaver Dam Lake) started icing up two weeks ago .. so I finally but the old gal away for the winter. It's was about 2 degrees F this morning.
Merrily
Administrator
RobKoci said:
You are welcome. Try this Canadian website for info on pilates and a source for videos and DVDs to work out at home. The machine they use is great, as well, with the ominous name The Reformer.
http://www.stottpilates.com/index.html
Janet
Re: Off Season Fitness - growing old rots
Growing old definitely sucks, which makes getting as much sailing time as possible that much more urgent.
Reading your post makes me feel better about GAINING ten pounds, as it sounds a lot easier than having to loose it. My nutritional directive is EAT MORE! Can't beat that for Christmas. At this point I am nervous to do any cardio until I hit about 170, which should happen in mid Feb. Then I get the cardio up and eat even more to keep the weight from falling. When the ice goes away, we then go out and show the kids how it's done.
maximbmf said:
Growing old definitely sucks, which makes getting as much sailing time as possible that much more urgent.
Reading your post makes me feel better about GAINING ten pounds, as it sounds a lot easier than having to loose it. My nutritional directive is EAT MORE! Can't beat that for Christmas. At this point I am nervous to do any cardio until I hit about 170, which should happen in mid Feb. Then I get the cardio up and eat even more to keep the weight from falling. When the ice goes away, we then go out and show the kids how it's done.
LooserLu
LooserLu
If our lake got frozen in that way that it holds (a lot of) people I (we all) go out skating a lot. This is good for the condition, probably the weight ("x-mas pounds") and make the health strong (f.e. against influenza).
Interesting is this point I have to add in the disscussion: Till winter 1999, I always good lost weight if I´ve done sports, like swimming severals seamiles a week. But since then, I do not loose weight, if I do a lot of training, but the fat (from the winter) turnes into muscles. I did not eat different before /aft 1999. It´s not the "cyclist-Jan-Ulrich-weight-problem".
The problem is, that in the sum I´ve the perfect weight and condition to be a bowman for sailing Star, but to much to sail Laser in lighter winds... But I don´t want to change the sailing-class...
Chiao
LooserLu
[that already has done his dayly hour on the ergometer (lake is not enough frozen yet)...
]
Interesting is this point I have to add in the disscussion: Till winter 1999, I always good lost weight if I´ve done sports, like swimming severals seamiles a week. But since then, I do not loose weight, if I do a lot of training, but the fat (from the winter) turnes into muscles. I did not eat different before /aft 1999. It´s not the "cyclist-Jan-Ulrich-weight-problem".
The problem is, that in the sum I´ve the perfect weight and condition to be a bowman for sailing Star, but to much to sail Laser in lighter winds... But I don´t want to change the sailing-class...
Chiao
LooserLu
[that already has done his dayly hour on the ergometer (lake is not enough frozen yet)...
]
mikescott
Member
I am 58 and have just started Laser sailing. Coming from a background in high wind windsurfing and triathlons. I am sticking with the triathlon training. It is well rounded incorporating weight training along with swimming, biking and running (duh). It should give a good balance of general fitness that will carry me through on the Laser. I think it is also important to have a strong core and will be working on that with a stability ball and plan on building a hiking bench soon. I would recommend this work out regimen for anyone, but especially for us older folks.
Mike Scott
Mike Scott
Merrily
Administrator
mikescott said:
Mike,
Not all of us older folks have the knees for running. You are lucky.
Janet
mikescott
Member
Merrily said:
You can still do the swimming, biking etc. Swimming is a great all around exercise for the whole body. It is important to use proper form though or you can injure your shoulders. BTW my knees are not all that great. That's why I do all the other stuff, I used to just be a runner.
It's been about three weeks since I jumped on this thread. I started weight training, and have discovered, through my fitness coach, that I am so tight, if I smile, my toes curl, so stretching is required daily while I try to get my weight up with hypertrophic weight training. I am doing six super sets of upper body and lower body resistence three times a week. Each set includes two excercises of three sets of 15 reps or less, with a fourth set if I have not gone to failure on the weight. The negative portion of the lift is counted down to keep it slow and steady, and increase muscle growth. I prepare for each workout with power drink of orange juice and creatine, and make sure I have at least 50 grams of protein withing 90 minutes post-workout. (a protein drink is usually necessary). The only cardio I get is during the supersets and playing hockey on Sat. and Sun. I don't want to start hard cardio till I am up to 175lb or so, which is planned for mid March. Once there, I'll get on the bike, and cut the weight to 171lb or so, which is where I want to be for the U.S. Nationals in Wrightsville Beach, N.C. April 21, 05. If I get my ass kicked, it won't be because I didn't hike hard.
144679
New Member
ben661 said:
hey ben, so thats why i can't catch you up the beats, i think a hiking bench is deffinatly a project for this winter,
144679
New Member
i'm a little comfused, how does using a hiking bench effect your hearing?ben661 said:yea i definitely helps but it hurts, i haven't used mine for ages but when i used to get off it i couldn't walk or hear much for about a minute