New standard sail

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by TonyB, Aug 14, 2010.

  1. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Hi

    As you all know, I am a fool (surely because I use bottom and top covers always, if my Laser is at the storage range …).

    Help me to understand something about the game we like to play, called: active/ambitious Laser-Sailing.

    All I know (for Europe): When the Laser was born, she came with the Elvstroem Sail. Years later, this sail has been replaced by first sail of Haarstick followed by another Haarstick (that with the word “compucut” in the sailsticker), a couple of years later. Then I guess, at the early 90ties, the Hyde 3.8 oz sail has been introduced.

    Has there been any “membership approval” at each change of the sail at those days? Did at those times active racing Laserites ever realized or protested, that perhaps in any “garden-variety” – “official ranking race event” competitors sail the new Hyde 3.8oz as well as the 1st Haarstick sail and the follow-up of Haarstick (the Compucut)? How far does at that races has been satisfied the fundamental rule or the One-Design thought?

    How many voters (of all permitted voters) did vote in Summer 2010 at the last ILCA ballot for new Laserparts/Laserrules? How many voters one need to get an honest/meaningful election?

    Do all serious racing Laserites worldwide in future now go and buy the expensive new superdooper-awesome bi-radial cut sail to find themselves 20 places more in front of the racing fleet, compared to others (that have the same sailing abilities, but) that do not even are able to buy an unused “oldstyle”-3.8 oz Hyde for half to the price of the modern cut sail?

    Let me tell you this btw:
    Three days ago I was asked in a different forum than TLF by a frequently sailing newbie: ”Hey, my old sail got a tear and the batten pockets failed. I am a teenager and love Laser sailing and I am sailing my old Laser on a flooded gravel pit.” What’s your advice, Lu!
    Heini, Jeff, Devin etc. would you honestly and with a clear conscience advise him in future to buy the new bi-radial that probably more cost than his complete oldish boat, only to sleep calm by the dream: this guy maybe/probably join in future 1 official Laser Race and then he leastwise sails a legal boat…?? …

    Well my answer has been: Go to a sailmaker. Don’t pay more than 100 Euro. If the cost for the repair will be more, visit an online-auctioning-platform to bet for a used sail or ask friendly sailing clubs in your neighbourhood, for they perhaps offer you a used Laser sail in better condition for ~100 Euro.

    Important for me is: I like to play the game called Laser sailing, if it is really (or nearby) on a one design level. How long does it take, before all the competitors around me in the racing fleet sail the same equipment like me? Or: Is that a pious hope of a fool on a Laser, only?

    Cheers and not forget to have fun on the water
    LooserLu

    PS: @ Wavedancer: You need a proof? ->If you are clever enough, yourself you find a proof by searching for drLaser (under his real name of course) at actual racing results 2010 at Laserraces at Turkey :) :)

    P.P.S: @ gouvernail: I understand a sh*t of what "R & B" are talking about, because of my poor knowledge in English. But, your toons must be definitely a great fun - More of that!
     
  2. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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  3. hotwater1387

    hotwater1387 New Member

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    that will help promote the boat and your fleet..good job...not!!!!
     
  4. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Not sure wha you are attempting to imply but the fact is many of us in the fleet have spent many hours each working with this particular newbie.

    Largely due to my own insistence, our fleet acts somewhat as a fraternal organization and we feel somewhoat obligated to overlook "who is a perceived to be an asshole" while playing the game we all come together from all sorts of land lives to play.

    We often say out loud, "If they kept all teh jerks oput of this club, none of us could belong."

    Sport, especially in an inexpensive fixed value toy, is an opportunity to be equal humans with no interference by politics, religion and wealth.

    It seems to me we should like to expand on that concept rather than consider on the water sportsmanship as our only expectation.

    I am such an incompetent I manage to occasionally impress people otherwise, but you can rest assured, 100% of my interactions around the world of sailing are designed by me to cause all those present to decide to come play again.

    In fact, I assume the rest of you are doing the exact same thing.

    As my version often fails; Please do more of yours.
     
  5. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    OK one last try. Here is a true classic Wayback Machine video...

     
  6. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    Just like I remember--completely cracked and politically incorrect! :p

    (When I get around to it, Wayback Machine posts will be moved to the Silly thread.)
     
  7. drLaser

    drLaser Member

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    Lu noted:
    "(The Laser first) came with the Elvstroem Sail. Years later, this sail was replaced by a Haarstick sail, followed by another Haarstick (with the word “compucut” in the sailsticker) a couple of years later. Then, in early 90s, the Hyde 3.8 oz sail was introduced. Has there been any 'membership approval' at each change of the sail at those days?"

    Excuse me, Lu, but you are comparing apples and oranges! None of these earlier Standard sail revisions involved any design changes. The panels were identically cut. At most, the batten pockets were shaped differently. What changed was just the manufacturer. What we are talking about now, however, is a radically different (bi-radial) design.

    Whether membership approval was needed back then or not is totally irrelevant.

    Shevy
     
  8. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    Wasn't there a change of material in the early 90s? The special 3.8 oz. cloth that is one of the reasons for the high cost?
     
  9. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Hi Shevy,


    Yes, indeed, I did compare “Äpfel mit Birnen”, so true! But, you are the 1st one that WROTE it here … :D

    That’s the problem in general, is my opinion! How many of the actually 18000 TLF members did really try to answer here to this important issue? How many to my questions (no matter if one or 2 of my questions are stupid or intelligent) WE, the TLF Laserites in general, are involved, all. Sooner or later, there IS a new official sail, but how many of all of the Laserites did involve themselves and their need into this discussion. The ILCA needs “feedback”. What do WE really need, not: do we need a new sail for 1% of all actually Laserites. Does anyone understand what I want to express?

    In other words: We have a city at GER that is called Stuttgart. Many years, railway designers designed a new railway station (“Stuttgart 21”). The project went to the governmental process of approving… no big feedback of the citizens of Stuttgart. So the project went into the realisation process. During the first demolition works for the old station, the citizens of Stuttgart awake and then many thousands went on the streets to protest. Now, the situation is this: there is a sort of “attempt at arbitration” between opponents and realisators. This would have been better done at the process of approving in the past.

    I which situation we are now with the new sail and the real needs of many 1000s of Laserites worldwide? Is it totally different like “Stuttgart 21”or not? It is our choice to get active and WRITE here at TLF! If my reply is written, I say, 10 minutes later it is already read by an officer of the ILCA and the Bulider. If they see there are 1000 replies (more or less useful) and 10000 views on this issue, they sure get an opinion on what the real desire of the mass of the Laserites is. The same for a vote of rule- or equipment changes.

    For real, Shevy, I am sure the sail cloth of Elvstroem of 1971-197?, compared to that 1st new sail cloth of Harstick is different a bit. Yes, true it is the same design, but a different sail cloth, for me, is a different cloth, so there was “noticeable change” to perhaps vote for (Think to the constant quarrels about the “difference” of Hyde and North sails). Okay, they didn’t do vote in the past. Old times are old times etc… But also nobody did answer my questions above about how many ILCA member Laserites did vote at the last vote? And how much is this number of voters in the relationship to all permitted voters. Nobody really did respond “substantial” to what you have written at your reply above. We are talking and talking here.., but the mass of Laserites, in the moment, don’t really realize / “put a thought on the issue” with the sail and “sleep”. And if the old “Victoria’s Sectrets”-3.8 oz sails are “sold out” finally in future and the new one is “noticeable” more expensive compared the old one, do all the active Laserites awake like those at “Stuttgart 21”, I don’t think so. They perhaps quarrel, secretly, or frequently here at TLF, but finally, they buy a legal sail or they change to the nice Intensitys- or Roostersailings sail. So, do we get “2 Laser classes”. A nightmare…. especially for the “1-design”-thought and for those many-many official ranking races at that no one does measure (or gives Olympic medals)…

    So, what is relevant now, Shevy, tell me (us) please. I (we) want to understand you correct.

    Have a great time at Istanbul, Shevy

    LooserLu
     
  10. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    The spec of the cloth was changed in about 1985-86, from the original 3.2oz cloth. The 3.8 oz cloth was just a standard cloth of the day, it has subsequently become obsolete with further developments in cloth since then, just like what ever cloth on the new sail will be obsolete within a few years. The relationship to cost is because once a cloth is obsolete, often it's no longer produced except by special order which tend to be more expensive.
     
  11. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    The difference between cheap or expensive dacron in a Laser sail (no more then $15) is an insignificant piece of the final price.
     
  12. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Common off the shelf stock from the same guys who supplied Haarstick when Haarstick made Laser racing sails>>>

    Linky

     
  13. Swerve123

    Swerve123 Member

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    Wow another added cost to a " one-design" every persons boat. I agree the boat has been improved with updates, but now another expensive one? Hey Ian, in your fleet of 50, really how many are recreational racers just looking for a start on the weekend vs a world class sailor like you? I agree with strick one design rules, but on the sunday afternoon racers to disclude them for getting out on the water with a " imitation product"? Maybe they should rather be a members, and buy a class sail for events/district racing. Those added boats on the line make it more fun I think. The manufacturers/dealers are sucking wind due to the economy and lack of sales. This forum reads like a elitist group of sailors. The companys need the backbone of the middle of the roaders and entry level sailor to make a buck. The elite will always sail.
     
  14. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    On the umpteenth day of Christmas,
    there was something in my mail
    A square top, fully-battened, Mylar Laser sail

    'Yes', the note (from North) said, 'this sail is now legal'
    And you will be flying like an eagle

    But on the next day of Christmas,
    the ILCA Scrooge came to my bed
    and told me 'this nonsense has to end;'
    'Go back to your crummy Dacron sheet'
    And all we can do is weep....
     
  15. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    love this !!!!!!!!
     
  16. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Merry Christmas - the elves made it even better with a carbon spar
     

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  17. Eric

    Eric New Member

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    Actually, for the Winter of 2009-2010, Newport averaged 25 participants per day, while CPYC averaged 32!

    I have just heard that the CPYC Fleet voted, by a margin of 50 to 3, to allow Intensity sails going forward. So, this is what the largest and most active Laser Fleet in the world is doing. For better or worse.

    With the Laser Suncoast Series expanding to 7 events next year, perhaps the new Suncoast-DIYC Fleet in Florida is on its way to world-class numbers!
     
  18. Braecrest

    Braecrest Member

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    could someone please explain why we need a super expensive upgrade and/or change?

    I am a fan of the van/cunny/outhaul changes made many moons ago but I fail to see the reason and the wisdom behind changing the sail for something more expensive
     
  19. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    I don't believe anyone has said that the new sail, whenever it comes out, it going to be super expensive (whatever that means). If you don't know why most of us are begging/pleading/demanding for change, go back and read the numerous posts on sail shape/longevity.

    The test sails that are being eval'd are made from dacron, so the cost should not change much. The only thing that could drive the price up is the builder deciding if the new sail lasts longer by x percent, they could therefore justify increasing the price as well (but hopefully not by the same x percent).
     
  20. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Expect longevity increase by x%, price increase by 2x% if recent builder pricing is any indication.

    (Being cynical yet again - maybe a New Year resolution there ?)
    Ian
     

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