New standard sail

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by TonyB, Aug 14, 2010.

  1. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    I saw the new standard sized radial cut sail design and I REALLY liked it. The material seemed much tougher than the current material. If it lasts significantly longer than the current design I would gladly switch to it and not bitch about the $ 600.00 price.

    Of all the topics about gear on this forum the "sail topic" is, (and has been for some time) the hottest topic. A CHANGE NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

    Yes, we ALL need to use the same sail and I believe using one supplier is fine so long as the collective group does not feel like they are getting screwed like we do now.

    As for the builder. The laser builders in the hay day were popping out 25,000 boats a year. Now it is down to 2,000. Proper production management and product management will keep a company profitable. If the current management lacks the dynamics to adjust to market conditions then changes need to be made to put people in place who can.....Just don't hold the loyal subjects hostage to overpaying for inferior products to feed the machine, (if that is what i happening). Eventually, that support will fade and then what?

    Until a change happens I will continue to use my Intensity sail for every outing I can get away with in order to keep the hours, (yes, HOURS) off of my 2 fairly new class sails, (which I rotate). Interesting thing about those class sails.....One has only 1 regatta on it and is already worn more than the other that has 6 regattas on it. What's that all about?! I don't want to hear, "well it must have been really windy when you used the newest one." That's not the reason.

    Back to topic: We need a new sail, we need a new sail, we need a new sail, we need a new sail, we need a new sail, WE NEED A NEW SAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Damnit.
     
  2. powergroove

    powergroove Member

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    Just to note...Ive used my Intensity sail all summer(every weekend in various conditions) and its still real crisp.
    It has good shape, its competitive against my friends, and its sturdy.

    Just my .02

    Hey Mr Intensity! I need a kickback!
     
  3. wessel

    wessel Member

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    LaserPerformance makes more than just the Laser. When I was there I saw the Sunfish line going and also some 420s for college programs and they had one SB3 sitting there too.

    I do know the actual number of Lasers they were selling and it looked like they were making about the same amount of Sunfish -- do the Sunfish guys have the same issue with their sail?
     
  4. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Apples vs Oranges, and no they don't
     
  5. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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  6. 663

    663 Member

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    I heard yesterday that North is getting out of Laser sail production and the class sail price was increasing. Good and not so good news, I guess.
     
  7. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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  8. The Unknown Master

    The Unknown Master Member

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    Sunfish sails last much longer, but that does not stop Sunfish sailors from complaining that the sails cost too much. We have the exact same Intensity vs. LP/North discussions regarding price. Because the North sails last quite a while you don't see many intensity sails, so I don't know if there is a speed difference. TUM
     
  9. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    I just pulled this from a post on Sailing Anarchy:

    Well said!!!

    Our club (SMSA in Solomons, MD) is hosting a Dinghy Regatta at the end of September, we will have a Laser OD class but it is not a sanctioned event so our PRO wrote the following into the NOR. Very clear that the boat must be OD compliant with the exception of the sail.

    2. RULES
    2.1. The Regatta will be governed by the Racing Rules of Sailing, 2009-2012.
    2.2. For any class being scored as a one-design class, individual class rules will be in effect except as
    noted.
    2.2.1 Laser class is allowed to use non class sails (APS/Intensity)


    Oh and the Intensity/APS sail is only $180 AND you get battens, two sail bags (roll/brick), numbers, tell tails AND a clew strap!!! AND Intensity will ship it to you for FREE and NO sales tax if you live outside of RI. And no I don't work or have an affiliation with Intensity just think it is a good deal. APS gives you all the same for the same price but I would have to drive to Annapolis to pickup and pay our stupid 6% sales tax. (Don't get me started on that as I would have to go over to PA.)

    It would seem momentum gaining for the 1/3rd price non-class sails to be used at events. The builder needs to step up and fix this debacle with the overpriced/under performing class sail or risk losing significant future sail revenue.....

    Yes, I will beat this horse until it's at least 12 feet under....

    Gov says to step up and fix it. Other than relentlessly bitching on the internet I don't know how.

    There's at least one good option out there. Would someone please pull the trigger?
     
  10. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    Soon to become boilerplate for Laser regatta NORs nationwide.
     
  11. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    Not a rules expert, but 2.2.1 should also say something like "This changes 78.1 and 87"

    I think!
     
  12. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    The problem is that you cannot vary the class rules using an NOR or SIs. This is in the RRS.

    The way around it is to 'create' a local class that has exactly the sames rules as another class with the exception of the rules you want to vary. There is no rules against that...
     
  13. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    That is technically correct, by the RRS you can't modify the Class Rules in the NOR and/or SI's unless the Class Rules allow the change to be made -or- the class association (in this case ILCA) provides written permission.

    Technicians can look at section 7 of the RRS for the details.

    The bottom line, I think there are only two ways to use replica equipment in a regatta:

    a) you have a singlehanded class where the boat type is not specified,
    b) you have a gentleman's agreement amongst all the racers that "its ok" and nobody will protest.

    I'm guessing that most fleets that allow replica equipment are going with option b since option a doesn't guarantee you are racing against boats that look like Lasers.
     
  14. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    No shortage of dockhouse lawyers around here.
     
  15. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Just like a protest room.
     
  16. IntensitySails

    IntensitySails Member

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    The Sunfish class helped me in development and testing and found the the sail we are producing does sail level with the class sail. The Sunfish class supports the use of our sail for local sailing but not for regional or national events. They are looking to increase participation and get more Sunfish out.

    I am glad that we have been able to help them with that goal in mind.
     
  17. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    The other way to do it is to write in to the SI/NOR that you will not accept measurement based protests. This of course opens up huge scope for other things when in reality all you wanted to do was allow a training/replica sail to be used for what seems to be a friendly sailing event aimed at getting as many people out on the water as possible.
     
  18. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    So does this allow me to enter the regatta with a fully battened, oversized mylar sail and call it a "replica laser sail" since laser class specs don't need to be met? Who decides which class specifications aren't met and which "replica" laser equipment is legal and illegal?
     
  19. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    In theory yes.... which is why it is a bad idea.
     
  20. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Can it be considered a "replica" if it in no way, shape or form replicates a current class sail design? For instance. How many replica Cobras, (the car) do you see on the road, but can't visually tell the difference?
     

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