New standard sail

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by TonyB, Aug 14, 2010.

  1. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    What I meant by confusing was when a year or two ago you (or somebody from Intensity) posted that your sails were faster than standard sails (http://www.laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=7627&highlight=I+have+been+going+over+this+with+my+production+guys.&page=2 post #27
    But then you retracted the comment - hence the confusion. Were you correct in you original post or the modified later post once the "level playing field" aspects had been raised.

    Ian
     
  2. IntensitySails

    IntensitySails Member

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    But then you retracted the comment - hence the confusion. Were you correct in you original post or the modified later post once the "level playing field" aspects had been raised.

    Ian[/QUOTE]

    I think 5 years and thousands of sails made with no advantage or disadvantage over the class sail speaks for itself. The rest is a red herring!
     
  3. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    I think 5 years and thousands of sails made with no advantage or disadvantage over the class sail speaks for itself. The rest is a red herring![/QUOTE]

    More confusion because the comment you made about them being faster was only 3 years ago so if they were faster 3 years ago how come they are the same now ? Has the design changed to make them the same ?

    Ian
     
  4. IntensitySails

    IntensitySails Member

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    Has the design changed to make them the same ?

    Ian[/QUOTE]

    As you know, I am sure, the class sails construction has not changed thus Intensity sails full rig, radial and 4.7 sails have not changed and are cut and constructed identically to the class sails. They are in use worldwide.

    No confusion for anyone on this other than Deimos.

    If you wish to communicate directly with me to help you to understand please feel free to email me directly.
     
  5. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    No point in arguing further. One moment you claim your sails are faster (see quote before) and when it is "inconvenient" (given the class ethic) you claim they are the same !!! No way to resolve the conflict when both sides come from the same person !!

    Ian
     
  6. IntensitySails

    IntensitySails Member

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    You can argue that the world is flat too but the reality is self evident. I NEVER made that claim that my sails were anything but level with the class sail. All of the people out there sailing my sails can speak for themselves so I cannot help but wonder what your concern is.
     
  7. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    After reading the posts above I THINK somebody is trying to hang a speed claim on somebody despite apologies and denials that it is reasonable to continue to hang said claim on that individual.

    So all that remains is and nobody seems to be disputing it...Intensity is providing the sailors with a sail that is pretty much just like the class legal sail for something under $200 while the class ( who is us) only allows its membership ( which is us telling us what we can or cannot do) to use the builder supplied just like the Intensity sail version that happens to cost about three times as much.

    if I understand correctly, the NA president has already told us everybody has sails made by exploited underpaid cheap labor and the only reason for the price diffference is Class Legal sails must go through the builder's hands before we can have them.

    Our president failed to mention royalty and ISAF button expense but he explained that teh Builders take $00 per sail and if teh builders and dealers could not mark up our sails those builders and dealers could not afford to spend money supporting our game.


    So....The problem with this Intensity fellow is he fails to take $400 from us for each sail he sells and the Intensity guy never supplies all the boats for the world Championships and then sells them for more than it cost him to build them.

    Or something like that. I ahven't seen exactly where the $4,000,000 per 10,000 sails goes for cetain but...it has something to do with supporting our game.
    or so we are told.
     
  8. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Well no point in arguing further because clearly my English language skills are not adequate because I understand

    to mean the sail is faster. Strange thing this english when "the Intensity sail is faster than a "race" sail" actually means they are not faster !!!

    (I thought I had had my say but clearly we Brits obviously speak totally different language to those in the US)

    Ian
     
  9. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Yet, you continue.............BTW, the new lass sail design is going to be different in performance to some degree from the current design if the class does go with the radial cut sail. The radial cut will provide a stronger pattern which will allow the sail to wear better which, by nature, will ause it to perform better than the current sail at least over time. I think the point the class is tyring to push is there is nothing "radical" going on with the design like the Rooster 8.1 sail or something aong those lines. The shape will be the same and the size will be the same as will the battens. The window may be bigger and the pattern/material will change to provide for a longer lasting sail. I got to play with the radial design on shore a little and I really liked it. I'll bet the class will try to get another $ 100.00 per sail if it is proven to last longer.............
     
  10. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    One correction, it's the builder, not the class that will try and get additional $$$.
     
  11. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    True. My bad.
     
  12. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Amigo, you weren't paying attention when the US switched over to habla espanol
     
  13. mental floss

    mental floss Member

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    Oh Brother..get over it already.
     
  14. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    When I was last in Miami I recon I heard more Spanish being spoken than any other language.

    Ian
     
  15. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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  16. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    Please take this post as a physicist's attempt at humor while also allowing some leeway to combine what we're learning on the LaserForum with one other piece of information to then draw a conclusion (and poke a little fun which I hope is appreciated):

    a) By LaserForum consensus, the current European/North American builder is losing money,

    b) At the same time, the current European/North American builder and dealers are reaping a massive $4,000,000/year in income by screwing all of us.

    c) (New Information) The current European/North American builder is producing around (but certainly less than) 2000 boats per year.

    d) LaserForum consensus is that we should agree to choose one of the replica sail retailers to become the "new" Laser sail since then we'll all save uncountable numbers of cases of beer which could be put to good/better use. A LaserForum poll will be used to select that retailer, once selected they will agree to be inspected by the Laser Class and pay the puny 7.50 pound sterling royalty fee for sails (which might pay for the annual inspection and the precious sail button) - but otherwise hold their price where it is.

    My simpleton conclusion: the builders and dealers will now collectively need to make up at least $4,000,000 a year in income and, really, the only way to do that is to increase the price of the boat. So... let's see, $4,000,000 divided by 2000... move the zeroes, carry the one, oh wait, no need to carry since 2 goes into 4 2 times... lots of zeroes to deal with, let's see, where is that calculator? Oh, right, $4,000,000 divided by 2000 is $2000. Ah ha! So the builders and dealers will need to see the retail price of the Laser increase from $5600 to $7600 (in the US) in order to maintain their current state of losing money at a rate that seems to allow them to stay in business (I guess like an airline). No worries, the newbies will have even more incentive to get into the growing sport of sailing if the entry cost goes up by $2000! Its like mountain biking, the more expensive it is the more people want to do it!

    And now a word from our sponsor: come on out here to San Francisco where we can sell you one, or all, of 5 different bridges, plus one that is still under construction! Heck, we'll give you a fantastic deal on the one its replacing! And if you hurry you can watch the Finn Gold Cup race out of the same launching area that will be used for the Master Worlds next year (ie Steve's Marina as in Forum member sorosz)!

    -or-

    In other words, be careful when making back of the envelope calculations when you don't have all of the information.
     
  17. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    Among the things I have learned during the too long process of looking at a new Standard sail:

    • Two sails with identical cuts but not the same material are different. I can say that testing between two sailors who both finished the year in the top ten of the ISAF World Cup demonstrated there is sometimes a large difference. Not only in objective side by side speed testing, but also in the more subjective off the water discussions where both said they could see/feel the differences in the sails. (note they were not using "replica" sails, but testing of prototypes).
    • The average Laser sailor is not as sensitive to the differences in material that the pros are, we tend to make too many other mistakes for it to matter.
    In addition:
    • An Olympic medalist told some sailors in a clinic he was running (which I attended) that if they were to use replica sails in the clinic he would not be able to help them with sail trim because he could see that the sails were different and he didn't want to waste his and their time trying to figure them out.

    My point here is that it doesn't matter what sail we use but it is important that we all use the same sail.
     
  18. TonyB

    TonyB Member

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    As entertaining as this thread is, it would have been lovely to keep the "Laser builders are evil, Intensity are great" theories in the other seventy three threads that have gone down that path and saved this one for a discussion on the new standard sail design.

    Surely Tracy has better things to do than come up with yet another way of reminding us that it isn't that simple? Although I do have to say that this is one of my favourites so far. We've had diplomatic reason, now we have physicist humour - I wonder what comes next? Ill-concealed frustration? How long until we reach utter despair?

    In an undoubtedly doomed attempt to bring the thread back to its origins, it seems like some posters may have seen or even sailed with the new design. Does anybody have any further details or comments about the sail itself, or the cost or the release timing?

    I would ask Tracy, but he seems to be well equipped with a mute button on these details. Which may be telling in itself if you like a good conspiracy theory.
     
  19. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    I liked Tracy's post

    If mwe all promoted thegame as much as we bitch about it ( me included) we would cause thebuilders to sell so many new boats walmart would stock tehm and if Walmart stocked lasers they would sell tehm for under $1000.

    No kidding...if Walmart could sell a couiple a week in every store the production process and delivery process qwould be so effecient the would be profit for everybody at $1000.

    But. sailors STILL haven't decided which ONE singlehanded boat is the toy to be used for racing sailboats.

    So..we stillhave to use hand built one at a time boats and sails.

    Hopefully someday someone will decide to build and promote a singlehanded boat whose design goal is a baot that does everything lasers do while lasting forever and costing about $1000. it can be done. it is simply the fact that no one has decided to do it.
     
  20. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    I completely agree.

    I don't know if it is related to the new sail but I'm sure the UK price of a new sail is lower than it used to be (by quite a bit). I don't keep track of the new sail prices (though might start now as I will be needing a new sail soon) but I'm sure the LP price used to be a lot higher. However, it is not expressed as a special offer or anything so maybe it is addressing the "knock-off" competition as they can not release a new sail and suddenly hick the price right-up again (or maybe my memory about prices is just faulty). (though they are doing a £60 off the rolled sail)

    Ian
     

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