New Standard Laser Sail Design

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by Sail4SC, Feb 27, 2008.

  1. fracisco

    fracisco New Member

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    If you read Tillman's book, specifically the talk with Hans Fogh about the development of the Radial, one of things he states is that if they could do it over, a Radial full sail would have been something they would have done. In theory, the load paths should be better, reducing stretch and strain across panel seams. I would think that a radial design coupled with a heavier cloth that is produced widely would result in a longer lasting sail.
     
  2. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Persistence may pay. Publishing constant and relentless demands for a decent product may just cause the builders to provide that decent product.

    Cost more?? A piece of fluttery stretchy crap is not a sail at all so there is nothing currently being supplied with which to compare costs.
     
  3. Sail4SC

    Sail4SC Member

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    not a hox... :rolleyes:
    I also heard they are considering a very similar cost to existing sails because there is no middleman involved with the production (ie. North or Hyde). No guarantees of that.
     

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  4. Laser of the Corn

    Laser of the Corn Member

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    Wow, I like the look of that sail.

    I would definately be in favor of the sail assuming it's a much higher quality than current. Even if price increases say $100 it's well worth it if the sail last twice as long.
     
  5. jgolfmad

    jgolfmad New Member

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    Whats the red pulley system next the cunningham?
     
  6. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    No middleman invovled in the production? Then who would actually make the sail?
     
  7. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    outhaul
     
  8. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Don't look too close to our national organization for help during an olympic campaign. They provide assistance to the group or person they feel is the best candidate to bring home a medal. Once you've won the trial you'll get something, but even then it is scaled based on your world ranking and results.

    Just ask Paul Forester, (2004 470 Gold winner). This was his 4th campaign/olympics. He did the least amount of racing/training ever, but since he silver medaled in AUS during 2000 he had the best support from the IOCC and US Sailing. Hell US Sailing begged him to go to Europe just to get the US qualified to sail in the Olympics and once he did they turned on the support, (as best they could anyway).

    BTW, it takes about $80k a year to support a 470 olympic campaign. Probably because you have to do all of your serious racing in Europe. Not sure what it cost Mark in the Laser last time.
     
  9. Chainsaw

    Chainsaw Brmmm Brmmm

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    Reasons for my initial cool response:

    this is a radial sail....

    [​IMG]

    and what a pretty sail it is too. Notice the hieght of the woman's head versus the hieght of the window. No need for windows when a) you can't see anything usefull out them b) when people with windowless practice sails don't start crashing into things through lack of visibility. As for the carbon reinforcing, that's just silly added expense no one needs.

    This new sail looks like the same cloth, maybe just heavier - well why not address the real issue...flappy leech...and use a stronger material up the leech panel.

    Hans Fogh this and that...ok wonderful, but things have moved on since they had that discussion about wanting the standard rig to be radial. The class shouldn't get stuck in the past by valuing nostalgia and repuation over modern technique and materials.

    Sail design is about form and shape. An ugly window (or an ugly anything) says to me that the builder isn't much of a designer. Inspect modern sails and see how good they look - the panel shape is sexy, the shapes complement each other the whole sail looks good. There is proportion. It isn't coincidence. Fast efficient shape looks good.

    Add to that that tell tales that are well back from the luff and too stiff to be of any use and warning bells start ringing.

    So sorry if I don't snap up the first effort just because it exists, or get shirty because ILCA have ignored the problem for 30 years. Sail design via committee is what I expect from ILCA, but it's not what I want. I want a new better sail that has been thought out properly by people who know what they're doing. I'll pay for that.
     
  10. sailchris

    sailchris Member

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    I think that's just a nicely done outhaul purchase.
     
  11. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    Under the guidance of Dean Brenner, the format has vastly changed. For each class of boat, there are only 3 sailors or teams, instead of the old 5, and with the addition of AlphaGraphics as title sponsor to Team USA, they are getting much more money than they used to, and now most of their time is devoted to sailing. Please read the current issue of Sailing World.

    *US Sailing has also just started the US Youth Development Team (or called something to that effect) which main purpose is get take the best of the youngsters and promote them for the Olympics and get them to regattas. So far, I think it is only in Lasers and Radials





    I actually thought the cloth looked much lighter, but its hard to tell

    and yes, we need to move on from the past, and start looking foward to new sail shapes and designs, something Finn/CII like
     
  12. Laser of the Corn

    Laser of the Corn Member

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    I much agree with Ross, the Laser needs to start looking toward the advances of modern technology and make a sail that is durable and equal in performance to current. What we don't want is sails being manufactured by many companies and becoming optimized to the sailor's characteristics like the Finn.

    The last thing the Laser class needs is a situation where we are measuring bend characteristics at 1/3, 2/3, and tip to get a true fit.
     
  13. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    This is true, the sail must be as it currently is, and fit a broad range of weights. But I believe that it can be designed stylistically like a Finn or CII sail, with similar cloth, and design
     
  14. dougreynolds10

    dougreynolds10 Member

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    The laser is never going to be the fastest boat out there. But it happens to be on of the most raced single handed boat in the world. The idea of the laser is not to be high tech or fast the idea is to be simple fun one design. With each upgrade the boat is getting more complicated and takes more time to rig up and more special care. The fact is the sail does not need to be high tech like a Finn sail. Finn sails sell for over 1000 dollars https://www.northorder.com/securenew/finn.php. If we had a finn type sail I have no doubt that it to will be over $1000. The only thing that really needs to be improved on our sail is the durability anything further then that will hurt the class because its changing what our boat is. The from reading other sailing forums like SA I have gathered that main thing that stops people from joining the laser class is the fact that to be competitive you have to buy a new sail very often.
     
  15. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Please read the current issue of Sailing World.

    *US Sailing has also just started the US Youth Development Team (or called something to that effect) which main purpose is get take the best of the youngsters and promote them for the Olympics and get them to regattas. So far, I think it is only in Lasers and Radials

    Just got the Sailing World in the mail this afternoon. I'll check it out.
     
  16. bjmoose

    bjmoose Member

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    Can we get a higher resolution version of the original photo?
     
  17. captainJack987

    captainJack987 New Member

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    So if the class went to the new sail, the shape would be the same not the material tough?
     
  18. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    that would be the hope

    But I would like to see something a smidge different, more efficient, but that would require a new mast
     
  19. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    I read the article. So, the US Laser team will only consist of 3 sailors and only those 3 will see any cash from this program? That's a tall order to get one of those 3 spots, but if you do it's a big leg up support wise.

    It is good to hear there is movement for youth support, but at 21 you'll be outside that window.

    Once you pass 18 you fall into that "no man's land" age group where it is the most competitive on the sailing side and the funding side.
     
  20. bjmoose

    bjmoose Member

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    If you read what Tracy's written on the subject, the class membership strongly resists "game changing" developments in this area, but is willing to consider minor changes that would be targetted only at improving durability. I would take that to include changes to the sail shape.

    Heck, a change from crosscut to radial cut may be considered "radical heresy" by some.

    I would hope that class leadership would make proposed designs available to look at (sail with?) at major class events in the US over the next few months/year leading up to a vote.
     

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