New sail design - Keep the Dream Alive!

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by dyzzypyxxy, Sep 26, 2008.

  1. marvin-miller

    marvin-miller Arrrr...

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Disclaimer: I'm not a racer because there are virtually no races near me, and, to be honest, I could care less about racing so my thoughts are my own based soley on what I believe to be common sense :eek:

    Having said that, isn't the whole sail issue much easier to resolve?

    The fact of the matter is that OEM Laser sails are over-priced. A good friend of my family was an exceptional boat builder (retired). He designed and built several very successful 35-40' sailboats, several of which won the Victoria to Maui races. My point is, when it comes to sailboats/sailing, the man is veteran who knows what he's talking about (more so then I!)

    He bought a lot of sails, big ones. He couldn't believe that a little dinky Laser sail was a whopping $600 Why? Because it's way overpriced compared to what he paid for larger and heavier sails.

    Some might disagree with that logic. OK, how come an Intensity sail is so cheap then? It's probably even a better sail. But wait, it's not legal ! That's the issue.

    Am I the only one that understands that OEM products cost way more money? If the rules legislate an OEM sail then, from my view, it's in the best interests of the OEM when the sail is $600 and a virtually identical Intensity sail is sub $200

    My point being that the $400 difference is going somewhere....

    Being forced to go OEM is nothing but a big advantage to... the OEM. That advantage comes at the cost of the consumer. Any time you stifle competition you get what? Price fixing and/or gouging.

    Competition however tends to breed two things, one, better quality and two, a lower price.

    Throughout history we see this. VCR's were originally more then $1,000 Competition, coupled with mass production, reduced them to free with any purchase of $50 or more :D Historically it's like that with everything.

    Why not make the solution as simple as this. Allow a person to use either an OEM laser sail or an Internsity sail ? Competition like that would cause the OEM price to drop like a rock or they would pack up and go home because their production methods are less effective. That's the American way. You reward the innovator and you punish the glutton, and as such, the consumer wins and the innovator sells more product making more money based on what? Volume.

    In any business, when you mass produce something the price typically drops because the manufacturer buys the components needed in higher quantities (he pays less) and then automates, as much as possible, the manufacturing process. This cost savings ultimately leads directly to a lower price for OEM and they usually pass some of that off to the end user - unless you've managed to legislate a monopoly. It's my understanding that more then 200,000 Lasers have been built. That's 200,000 sails. Yet, for more then a decade the price has been fixed at more then $500

    Why aren't we, as consumers, rewarding Intensity for making, if anything, a better sail for less then $200 and make it the standard and slowly phase out OEM sails.

    If the point of the whole thing is standardization and eliminating anti-competitive variations during manufacturing, then standardize on a cheaper model that still maintains the same quality. If you're worried that this would lead to another monopoly, then award several different companies the contract or enforce price management to ensure, once awarded the contract, the company didn't raise the price from sub $200 to $600

    Another alternative is to take a que from Stock Car racing where they measure the cars before each race to ensure that someone didn't make one to a slightly smaler scale (this actually happened). They created a very simple measuring jig for this. It takes 5 seconds to put it on the car to ensure that it's 'within spec'.

    It would not be a problem to ensure that every major event were outfitted with a class legal jig to quickly measure the entrants sail size before each race. This is not rocket science folks!

    As far as I can see, were it not for the class rules, a person could probably sue using Sherman anti-trust laws as their basis. You could probably make a price fixing/gouging case. Someone is getting fat off an enforced $600 sail when you can buy the same (or better) for sub $200. And remember, it's the consumer that's paying that $400 surcharge (that means you!)

    In any business, contracts are typically awarded by two things, price and quality. Both have to be present. Yet in the Laser world this is not the case. The Laser world exists in a world where the traditional capitalist system does not apply. It's Bizzare-O world where everything is backwards.

    For as long as I can remember an OEM Laser sail was always at least $500 - that's going back more then a decade. Because I don't race it's the reason I never bought a new sail. Instead, I made do with my 27 year old sail (I'm not kidding here - my Mom used to sew it back together!).

    Intensity was the biggest blessing I've ever seen in my little Laser world. I had never seen a brand new sail before I bought theirs. I refused to be gouged. Not only did I get a brand new sub $200 sail but it came with battens, two cases, a fancy clew tie down and the highest quality sailing calendar I'd ever seen. It even came with tell-tales and numbers!!

    That's an incredible value. You guys would know better then I if the Intenstity sail has the same merit with respect to sailability etc. It's my understanding that it's designed to be more durable then the OEM.

    My question is this, why aren't we rewarding them for doing an incredible job and, if anything, going more then the extra mile? I doubt anyone would balk if the legislative body woke up one morning and said, "We're going with them". If the worst thing that happened was that everyone had to part with less then $200 to fix this issue once and for all - and they got a brand new sail in the process - then so be it. Why make it more complex then it has to be with entirely new sail designs etc?

    After many years in the automotive business, the computer industry and in general business I thought I'd seen every possible type of gouging. The thing is though, in every case competition could come in - if they wanted to.

    It's only in the Laser world where anti-competition practices have been able to be legislated. Normally the federal government steps in when that occurs. Now, I understand that legislation is required due to the one design principle but the fact is, Intensity seems to be making, if anything, a better sail for less then $200 and that tells me one thing - the emporer has no clothes!
     
  2. Eric_R

    Eric_R D10 Secretary

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    It's been said way too many times why the laser sail costs the way it does. Look through more of these threads and you'll get your answer on that. Intensity sails are so cheap because sell direct rather than the supply chain. And remember, Intensity sails aren't Laser sails. They aren't innovating anything, they aren't following the rules that the Laser class sets for a sail.

    There is enough testing on new sail designs going on that we should see something come of it in the future. The class knows the issues with the sail design and it's trying to be fixed but it takes time.

    I disagree that competition will bring down the sail price, in fact it would hurt. You want an example of this look at the Optimist class. Look at how expensive their sails are ($550 at the max, for a sail that's even smaller than a Laser). All are class legal. Adding that kind of variety will bring sail prices up and turn the class into an arms race so people spend more and more money to buy what they think the best sails are. The price won't go down.

    Adding measurements to the class takes time away from major regattas where we would normally just show up and race because we know everything on the boat is legal. Now with things replica sails and parts, that hurts the class because now people have to think twice about what's out there and then we waste time measuring when we should be racing.
     
  3. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I think AlanD would beg to differ on your comment about measuring. Just because the Laser is a One Design class with a tight ruleset does not mean that measuring is not required.

    I will agree that it is not along the lines of other classes such as the Finn and Fireball where they can (and do) have a full measurement process before all major regattas. All boats are required to hold a valid measurement certificate and all sails must be signed as being measured by an authorised class measurer prior to the event.

    The class has a difficult job with regards to the sail because it has not been touched or updated for so long. They have to get the blanace right between making progress and ensuring they do not obsolete every sail that is currently in circulation. As it is we are unlikely to see this prior to the end of the current olympic cycle unless they can persaude the ISAF to allow it.

    From what I have seen things look promising although more updates are required from the technical comittee (IMO) because most of the stuff we find out is based on what people have seen/heard from the people in power.
     
  4. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

    Likes Received:
    55
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Most major rule revisions (like a new sail) seem to tie in to the four-year Olympic cycle. I'm betting we wouldn't see a new sail before 2012.
     
  5. Eric_R

    Eric_R D10 Secretary

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16

    What I mean is for Worlds and big Regional events I can see that but adding measurement all the way down to a District Championship level (I'm talking about a NA district) just takes too much time (and where are you going to get all the people to do it?) . When you go to a big event like Worlds you expect to get things looked at. Most I've had (going to US nationals and NAs) in terms of measurement is making sure the sail numbers are the same as the boat and there's a measurement button on the sail. Nothing more. Adding measures to every class legal regatta is not the right step. As long as we educate people that you can't use these parts they will figure it out and self police it. It's the increasing availability of replica parts that's almost forcing the class to create groups of measures so all the regattas have someone there to look over the fleet to make sure everyone is using the right stuff.
     
  6. marvin-miller

    marvin-miller Arrrr...

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Hmmm.... as a businessmen I could drive a truck through that argument. The trend in business all over the world is going direct.

    Everyone understands that the supply chain costs the consumer. Remember, that $400 fee is going somewhere....and it's the consumer that's paying for it. (That's us by the way and that means you dear reader). With respect to an Intensity sail not being a Laser sail - that's because it's been legislated so by a legislative body that's been endorsing a monopoly for decades. That point can't be made more clear then it already has.

    And yet, the fact is, there is a sub-$200 sail on the market right now. Maybe it's just me but it seems like the price already did go down - and that's in a market that's legislated by government mandate to specifically thwart competition under the guise of keeping every boat the same.

    That argument doesn't really hold water. For a couple of reasons. First, you don't have to implement measuring. You could just shift the sail endoresement from the current one, to, for example, the Intensity sail. Just like that. Everyone saves $400 and we reward the company that's innovating and everyone still has the same damn sail. This is not rocket science folks - it's a simple problem.

    But that's the point right - the reason why a solution as simple as this is not being undertaken is because someone is protecting that $400 fee under the auspices of ensuring no-one is getting an unfair advantage.

    In today's world of computer controlled manufacturing it's dead simple to stamp out 200,000 identical sails where there is, for all intents and purposes, no variance.

    Supply chains are going the way of the wind (pardon the pun). The only time paying an extra $400 fee for going through a supply chain is when it adds value.

    A Laser sail is a commodity item - there's no tech support required for it and it does not require the complex shipping or handling that typically necessitates a supply chain.

    Who wants to endorse and pay for the supply chain with respect to the sail? That means that every time a sailor buys a new sail he's being forced to give an extra $400 as a donation to support the supply chain? In the business world that's called an anti-competitve practice - to say the least.

    Look, the proof is in the pudding. If the legislating body woke up one morning and decided that everyone had to use an Intensity sail it would mean three things;

    1) Everyone would be saving $400 every time they bought a sail
    2) Everyone would have the same sail
    3) There would be no need for measuring.

    Problem solved.

    Instead, the legilative body has chosen to force the sailors to part with $400 extra dollars every time they buy a new sail to support what? The supply chain. For a commodity item that does not require a supply chain in the first place.

    Maybe it's just me but I'm not going to vote with my hard dollars to support a supply chain. Here's an idea, why don't we take that $400 padding fee (let's call it what it really is) and give it to up and coming young sailors as a donation to support the sport? That's at least something I'd be willing to pony up the 'padding fee' for.

    Instead of rewarding a company like Intensity - we punish them. And for what? Because they chose to make life better for sailors by offering a sail for $400 less on a $600 dollar purchase!!

    America, as a country, was built on just that kind of innovation and customer-driven approach. Normally that kind of behavior gets rewarded, but remember, the Laser world is actually Bizarre-O world where the standard laws of business don't apply.
     
  7. Eric_R

    Eric_R D10 Secretary

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    You might want to read this and the rest of that thread: http://www.laserforum.org/showpost.php?p=132218&postcount=9. SFBAYLaser is the NA class president.
     
  8. sprayblond

    sprayblond Member

    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    8
    One place to start to make racing cheaper is to ban the rolled sails. Since they are SMODs one could simply decide that the sails must be supplied folded. Then you may roll afterwards if you prefer to do so.
     
  9. marvin-miller

    marvin-miller Arrrr...

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
  10. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    28
    It takes about an hour to measure a sail, so it's not feasible to measure sails at the regatta venues. In most classes where sail measurement occurs, the measurers actually charge for their time. How much do tradesmen charge again for visiting?I look forward to the gravy train it should be quite profitable for me in a class like the lasers.

    As an aside, it's my understanding that sail measurement already occurs within the sail lofts of Hyde and North, it's one of the costs built into the sail. How much measurement occurs, I have no idea. Quite a few other Olympic classes are considering moving to in-house measurement.

    Typically at regattas where measuring occurs, 50-70% of boats fail in the unrigged state, mostly due to batten length (which has improved in the last 18 months). But we also get significant numbers of radial bottom section sleeves incorrectly placed (Aus-NZ problem), rudder angle issues, hiking straps with two loops aft, plus many other problems in small numbers, all are problems with supplier quality. On top of this we have competitors failing to place sail numbers correctly, attempting to use bent spars, failure to indentify their boats as per the safety regulations of Yachting Australia, tape around the centreboard case, and quite a few others. In the rigged state, we have another 20-40% of boats fail measurement; the location of the shock cord associated with the outhaul is a big source of failure, a pulley being used instead of the fairlead on the end of the boom, no mast retaining line etc. It is extremely rare that a boat will go through measurement fully and not need to alter some aspect to make the boat comply with the Class Rules.

    It's worth noting that usually I'm measuring boats from competitors who are used to being measured, so you'd think they would take the time to make sure that their boats measured, often Olympic aspirants, I'm rarely meeting up with boats from Hicksville owned by a guy that has never raced a major regatta before.

    I think it's extremely naive to believe that self policing etc will work. The average competitor or even Olympic aspirants do not pick up the class rules and then check whether their boat complies. The only time they check the class rules is when they are looking for an advantage. They assume that what they were told by someone down at their club or even their National Coach is a legal way to rig the boat is actually legal.
     
  11. marvin-miller

    marvin-miller Arrrr...

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Why not go this route;

    If the legislating body woke up one morning and decided that everyone had to use an Intensity sail it would mean three things;

    1) Everyone would be saving $400 every time they bought a sail
    2) Everyone would have the same sail
    3) There would be no need for measuring.

    Problem solved.
     
  12. bjmoose

    bjmoose Member

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Unintended consequences, anyone? :cool:
     
  13. Sean

    Sean Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    If I went to buy this sail from my local dealer in Aus what would he charge me for it? $200 for the sail, $50 for shipping and then their markup so by selling the intensity sail via a dealer you would pay at least $450 US.

    That is removing one step in the supply chain only, the local manufacturer of lasers.

    Yes the sail is expensive but if you allow people to go to any sailmaker they choose for a new "Laser" sail the class will no longer be one design.

    Slight differences in luff curve, seam tapering, different fabrics will all be taken advantage of to make sails perform differently. None of these changes would be measurable as the sail would need to be unstitched to even get an idea of how it was constructed.

    Yes, it would be nice to be able to have sail made for your weight and even set up for particular combination's of top and bottom and sections (yes it would happen) but where would it end. Sails in a extremely competitive class such as Lasers would quickly evolve within the limit of the rules and prices would quickly spiral out of control.

    Yes sure your local loft could knock you up a $200 buck special but the top guys will be using sails that have been developed and tweaked to such an extent that $600 will look cheap, and you know you will have to get one to be competitive.





    I have used an Intensity sail by the way and it is a powerhouse of a sail in big breeze. I found that it had great height and the top of the sail in particular would nicely blade off creating little drag. Gusts would hit and the upper part of the sail was so flat with draft so well forward that it was like sailing with a large skiff sail or cat sail. I wouldn't like to race against someone using one in overpowered conditions. Much stiffer fabric for similar weight and quite a different cut.
    I dont use one for training myself as it is just too different. Maybe if your new to the class and are doing lots of general boat handling practice it could be useful but even then when you start to develop a good feel for the boat you need to sail with a sail that loads up the leech and puts more load on the tiller because thats what your going to be racing with.


    Just imagine what you could do if you went out of your way to make a faster sail.
     
  14. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Let's not change the subject and then threaten the end of the world.

    The contest to make an appropriate sail can easily end with one supplier being awarded the contract..

    Regardless. For the last 20 years I have been asking the same simple question.

    How come Haarstick was able top buy off the shelf 3.8 oz material from Bainbridge and produce consistent longer lasting sails then those made with whatever cloth North has been using??

    And

    Why is there any difference between the North and Hyde sails???

    and


    My two most recently purchased North sails are more than an inch different is size on luff length and foot length.

    Is North really that incompetent??

    Do North's J-22 sails vary that wildly??

    Seriously. The brand new main I bought for the Masters North Americans in Austin a couple years back is way smaller than the sail I broke out for the 2009 Masters worlds.

    I just came home and rigged my boat for the Wednesday night races and I had to retie all my lines so I could ease the outhaul and cunningham.

    If I made keels that were an inch different in chord length a wouldn't have any customers.

    I bet if you yank out fifteen of those $49.95 tents at the Walmart there is better consistency than an inch and guess which cloth structure is trickier to sew together??
    The $49.95 tent has window flaps, webbing tabs, a floor, reinforcements around lots of places, poles, stakes, zippers, screens...and you can buy a dozen for the price of one Laser sail.

    This Laser sail pricing is total non sense. Look at a sleeping bag and tehn look at a laser sail. Which one should be more expensive??

    You can purchase entire matresses and recliners and couches for less than a Laser sail.

    Laser sails ought to sell for $50.

    In fact, if there is a problem with making $50 Laser sails, we pought to redefine the class legal sail so it can easily cost $50.

    The object of our game originally was to play sailboats without spending any more than necessary.

    The object has been hijacked into, "Let's see how much money we can make supplying the Laser sailing game."

    It is way past time to swing the pendulum back to the "who can do the best for least" side of the contest.
     
  15. marvin-miller

    marvin-miller Arrrr...

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    You brought up some great points. If a person measured 50 legal sales I wonder what the variance would be? Would the variance be greater or less then 50 Intensity sales?

    Are the legal sales purposely made to not last as long? That's something I hadn't thought of. A steady stream of orders and re-orders with a $400 padding fee for each one. There's nothing like a recurring revenue stream...just ask Microsoft.

    Maybe it's time the OEM took a different approach. If they maintained their monopoly on 'hard' parts such as the hull, the spars, the foils etc but changed their view on the 'soft' parts such as the sail. 'Soft' parts tend to be consumables and they should be reasonably priced. That helps to promote the sport and why punish someone who bought your product in the first place?

    I believe the issue has been made WAY too complex to the point that people can no longer see the forest through the trees. It really could be this simple;

    If the legislating body woke up one morning and decided that everyone had to use an Intensity sail it would mean three things;

    1) Everyone would be saving $400 every time they bought a sail
    2) Everyone would have the same sail
    3) There would be no need for measuring.

    Problem solved.

    Of course, that's provided that Intensity sails have enough quality control built into them such that variance amongst their product is minimal.

    But think of this too, Intensity's current low price is based on a certain volume of sales. What would happen to the $189 price point if they were awarded class legal status and could then supply the OEM and every person buying a Laser sail - as opposed to just the 'practice' sail market?

    In the normal business world the price would decrease further yet due to a massive increase in volume.

    How about this. If Intensity was awarded the contract and became class legal then they could sell their sails to the OEM dirt cheap (so that the OEM would still make good money) and Intensity could keep selling them to the public direct at the $189 price point.

    Intensity should make more money then they do now because they are buying their materials in much larger quantities and hopefully automating the manufacturing process.

    My point is that there's a million ways to skin the cat such that the end user doesn't have to pay a $400 surcharge because he wants to race. It's not rocket science - it's just a simple business solution. No-one needs to re-invent the wheel. There are wheels all over the place. They're just sitting there!

    But we should not be forcing the end user to pay a $400 padding fee for a class legal sail when he can buy a better one for $189

    If the issue is that everyone has to have the same sail, it's a no-brainer. Switch over to the Intensity sail. Everyone has to have one of those. That way everyone is even-stephen and no-one has to break out measuring devices. It's back to sailing skill.

    That would make too much sense though, if that were to happen everyone would have sails that last longer and cost $400 less.

    With respect to the poster from Australia wondering what the sail would cost him - it should be exactly the same - $189

    I mean, when you boil it all down isn't it this simple?

    Do you want to pay $600 for your Laser sail or $189 ?

    Yet, I'm sure people will post up and explain why the $600 sail is the way to fly! :rolleyes:
     
  16. Sean

    Sean Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    I am all for cheaper sails but at what point would you stop. Most of the replica laser sails are already manufactured in China. Should the license to manufacture boats be also given to more builders, particularly builders located in China?

    Should I be able to skip the dealer network entirely and just buy a laser online lets say from a Taiwan builder?

    I understand your argument that more competition leads to better and lower priced product but where do you draw the line?

    Seems that you are saying lets allow other sail makers to compete and we will all be winners but I think you will find the only way a cheap replica sail can be delivered so cheaply is because its a direct transaction between the importer/manufacturer and the customer.

    Once ILCA gets involved and the dealer network gets involved the price of a replica sail wont be anywhere near $200.

    You could make an argument that the whole manufacturing process be shifted to China and all boat sales could occur online.

    I have complained about the cost of sails for many years and would like to see the price fall but as long as you have a dealer network to support I cant see how it can.


    It would be great to buy a laser for 3k and do away with all the extra layers of transactions that occur. Be good for the class to be so cheap too but it is not going to happen. The only reason sails, boats or foils could be bought at a lower price is because of low labour rates etc in countries like China. Local manufacturers account for a significant part of the costs.
     
  17. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Garbage. Obviously you haven't spent to much time buying items from overseas. You have international freight charges, taxes, duties, foreign currency exchange fees. Importing goods from overseas gets to be quite expensive. This adds about $US100 to the cost, so much for "it will cost the same". Read the threads of Americans complaining about the cost of the fibreglass boards which are so much more expensive than the Crompton boards, over here they are the same cost as the Crompton boards.

    Doing away with the dealer network also means that there won't be new sails available at short notice. It takes 4-5 days by airfreight goods from the USA to Australia because they must pass through customs and quarantine inspections. So much for getting a replacement sail overnight because yours was lost in transit to the regatta.
     
  18. Der_Dude

    Der_Dude Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Why the harsh language?

    Why the misinformation? Both the Intensity and other "replica" sails and the class legal North and Hyde sails are currently being shipped, imported, taxed, sold for foreign currency etc. all over the world and the replicas run at roughly a third of the price of the legal ones, in NA and Europe.

    The costs for distributing a large number of new legal (ex-replica) sails world-wide should not be higher than the costs for the current distribution. Why should it be? Anyway comparing the import of a single fiber glass board, shipped by DHL or whatever, to the distribution of an alternate sail is comparing apples to oranges.The same goes for your assumptions regarding dealer stocks.

    I would agree it is a bad idea to bypass the local sailing stores. We should keep them alive. However, I don't see why the new class legal sail couldn't be distributed just like any other sailing product, like rope or clothing for instance, thru the existing dealer network - or like the currently legal sails are being distributed.

    In fact here in Germany it is Laser Performance who are bypassing the local dealers. There is only one licensed dealer left in the whole country, located about 800 kms away from many sailors, roughly 300 kms from my pond. Most German sailors buy online.
     
  19. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

    Likes Received:
    33
    Trophy Points:
    48

    You need to read more of the other threads on this subject as you don't have a good grasp on the "legislating body" If you did, you need to include some additional steps:

    .5) Convince the builder (and by extenstion, the dealers) that it's in the best interest of the class to stop making a (large) profit on the sail

    Might as well stop right there, as the builder has little reason to do that right now and until they do, make sure you have a large supply of asprin to help with the headache from the wall banging.

    *************************************************************
    IMHO, we, the sailors/class members are much better off focusing on something a little more realistic which is pushing/demanding the class assoc/builders to give us a more durable sail. They can do that anytime they want (their past inaction speaks volumes though)
     
  20. Der_Dude

    Der_Dude Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    P.S. Laser Performance and the class have no problem with the new blocks apparently, a part of the boat that is not equal to the part that most of us are using, definetely not "one design", one that is distributed through the same dealer "network" and that has not been approved by the tech commity.

    Ever since I've begun racing Lasers I have tried to understand this, why a strict OD class must be founded on a monopoly. Instead of a reasonable explanation I have come across a startling amount of misinformation that is being continually spread throughout the laser world and the Laser World, especially regarding the sails (the local dealer network, supposed quality issues on replicas, poorer labor standards, need for measurement, trade mark laws etc.). What is especially irritating is that it is spread by ILCA-members and officials.

    Why is that so?
     

Share This Page