new laser sail

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by lyclaser, Apr 20, 2004.

  1. lyclaser

    lyclaser New Member

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    alright I have another question.
    I need a new sail for this season. I noticed that the North sails (folded) on Layline.com are about $470. I also found a Hyde sail for about $550, and then theres the Rooster sail for almost twice as much as a North sail. I sail on the junior circut out of a small club in Ohio and I haven't met anyone from my club that sails lasers. Furthermore, we want the sail to last due to the lack of funding associated with the junior program. Is one sail better (or lasts longer) than the others?

    Also, I have heard that sail makers have certian "zones" that they have to sell within. I guess what I am asking is has anyone bought a sail from Rooster or anywhere outside the U.S. and had it shipped over here? If so, how much was shipping?

    Thanks a bunch!
    Dan
     
  2. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    The only sails legal for class racing are the North and Hyde. The Rooster sail is one of these two (most likely a Hyde)

    The class legal sails are not sold direct from the sailmaker to the public - they are sold to the manufactures, and from there to the dealers.

    Both sails are made from the same weight cloth, within certain specs (although the cloth comes from two different suppliers), so life span is going to be about the same.

    You can get a sail that will last longer, built by a sailmaker, usually for less $$ but it won't be legal for class racing - or you can buy used if cost is an issue and trade off some performance.

    My guess on shipping from outside US into US would run around $50 or so - not sure about duty...
     
  3. GeoffS

    GeoffS Member

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  4. macwas16

    macwas16 New Member

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    If you are very serious into racing then it would be wise to bight the bullet and go for the more expensive Hyde brand sail. I've personally seen that the quality of dracon used by Hyde is far superior to that of the North Sails. The Hydes last in racing condition for a much greater period of time and are less "blown out" after heavy air use. Hyde is the brand preffered by any really serious Laser sailor and you will see mostly all Hyde sails at big events.

    Even if you aren't THAT serious into racing then you still may want to get a Hyde, here's why. As I stated before, they last in racing condition for a much longer period of time so you could race in club fleets for multiple seasons with a racing condition sail and wouldn't have to replace it every other season. You can also sell your Hyde sail after a couple season's use for much more because sensible buyers do pay more for them.

    A while back I actually e-mailed Vanguard and asked why the Hyde is more expensive and they backed up everything I stated above. But still this is only my experience so please listen to what others may have to say :)
     
  5. Dave Kirkpatrick

    Dave Kirkpatrick New Member

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    "A while back I actually e-mailed Vanguard and asked why the Hyde is more expensive and they backed up everything I stated above. But still this is only my experience so please listen to what others may have to say"

    You clearly misunderstood what you were told by whomever it was you spoke with here at Vanguard.

    First of all, there seems to be a lot more opinion on the differences between the two sails than there are differences between the two sails. There are two manufacturers of Laser sails for the reason that redundancy of supply protects the market from shortages due to uncontrollable circumstances, and for the fact that we (Vanguard) have a larger overall relationship with North and PSE has a larger overall relationship with Hyde. Our volume of business with North gets us favorable pricing with North, and PSE's volume of business with Hyde gets them their best deal with Hyde.

    THE ONLY REASON A HYDE SAIL COSTS MORE THROUGH VANGUARD IS THAT WE PAY MORE FOR THEM FROM HYDE THAN WE DO FROM NORTH. PERIOD. The only reason that Hyde sails are available in NA is that people have asked for them and when we have an opportunity to give people what they ask for, it's generally good policy to do so. I can not comment on why people want them, but I can say that your statement that all of the top NA sailors use Hyde is not true.

    The facts about the two sails:
    1. Reasons for two suppliers as stated above.
    2. They are cut to exact same patterns.
    3. Greige (pronounced "grey") goods (polyester fibers from which the fabric originates) are sourced directly by each manufacturer.
    4. The fabrics produced (Hydes are made by Contender Sailcloth, Norths are made by North Cloth) are produced with the exact same end product in mind.
    5. Regular tests go on between the two manufacturers, both overt and on the sly.
    6. There have been many instances when cloth from one source was unavailable, and both manufacturers were sourcing cloth from the same place. Not long ago ALL sails were being made temporarily from North Cloth, as Contender was unable to supply.
    7. The finishing details on both sails are identical.
    8. The cloth standards accepted by each sail manufacturer fall within a significantly narrowed range of that specified in the Laser Builder's Manual.
    9. There have been times when one sail or the other has seemed better. There was a batch of bad cloth from North in 1997-early 98. Sometime before that, North sails were all the rage worldwide because they were the stuff. Fallout from the 98 sails instigated a bunch of spec tightening and general evaluation of how the whole process works. The result of that work has been wholly more consistent sails for all.

    With all of those facts out in the open (and this is the story that you get when you ask here), it's difficult to imagine that people want one sail or the
    other, but there's no accounting for taste.

    Either way, get the one you want, but don't perpetuate a bunch of rumours based on fallacies.
     
  6. macwas16

    macwas16 New Member

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    Thank you, Mr. Kirkpatrick for giving us the truth and clearing up any doubts. It is comforting to know that Vanguard and other manufacturers go to such great lengths to make make sure the sails are created equally. Such effort is highly appreciated in order to keep our class truly "one design."

    However, and I don't mean to come across as a prick here, I would like to defend myself.

    You started your post quoting me and saying, "You clearly misunderstood what you were told by whomever it was you spoke with here at Vanguard."

    Actually, I did not misunderstand them it all. Whomever it was (I don't remmember and unfortunately I no longer have the actual e-mail) stated that Hyde sails:

    1. Were made better
    2. Are more widely used by Olympic and other serious racers
    3. Cost more in the US because they have to be imported from Europe

    Again, thanks for clearing up these falsehoods but this is exactly along the lines of what was written back to me in the e-mail I sent asking why Hyde sails cost more. So no, I did not misuderstand what I was told, I was simply told wrong information, with the exception of the last point that you told us was true, Mr. Kirkpatrick.

    You also went on to say, "I can not comment on why people want them, but I can say that your statement that all of the top NA sailors use Hyde is not true."

    This I feel is clumsy writing on your part, and again I do not mean to be rude, because I never STATED anything of the sort. Never in my post did I use the term "all" or "NA."
    In fact, If you look back at If you look back at my original post you will see I wrote, "Hyde is the brand preffered by any really serious Laser sailor and you will see mostly all Hyde sails at big events." This, you must agree, is far from what you said I wrote and from what I have experienced holds lots of truth to it.

    Finally, you ended you post saying, "Either way, get the one you want, but don't perpetuate a bunch of rumours based on fallacies."

    This again I find is clumsy writing because I didn't write any false rumors in my post. I clearly stated in my post that my points came directly from peronal experience and from sources at Vanguard. I used terms like, "I've personally seen..." and "still this is only my experience... ." So no, I never wrote any rumors.






    Again, it is nice to see that North Laser sails and Hyde Lasers sails are created equally ON PAPER, but I'm still not convinced. From personal experince, again I stress from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, Hyde sails seem to last longer and appear to be less "blown out" after heavy air use. MANY sailors that I have talked to that have been racing Lasers for a long time agree with me too.

    I know that this thread is only foccusing on Laser full rig sails, but Laser Radial sails made by North and Hyde have had many first hand experiences showing that they are not made EXACTLY identical. In a thread a long while ago labeled "Which Radial is Right," mattsterett posted,

    "I happen to own a ridiculous number of radial sails (6- 4 Norths and 2 Hydes). I have found that the Hydes last longer and are actually slightly different in sail shape and seemingly bigger (i placed a new Hyde on a new North and I do not know how this is legal but the Hydes passed inspection at the laser radial worlds twice)."

    In another post in the same thread by Murphs stated that,

    " i have just bought a brand new north mk 6. a fellow club member ordered a hyde mk 6. after seeing the above post i called him to test mattsterett's theory/discovery. we found the hyde was a bit bigger at the bottom of the leech and the north was slightly bigger at the top of the leech."

    Seeing such differences in Radial sails leeds me to believe that there may be some differeneces in the North and Hyde full rig sails too.

    I am some what of a superstitionist myslef, so even if it is proven a million times that there aren't ANY differences in North and Hyde sails AT ALL, I'd probobly still go with the Hyde sail just because I think it's better.

    All I can say is that when I go to order my new Laser Radial for this summer's racing next week, I'm going to specifically ask for a Hyde Radial MK6 sail.

    Again Dave, I don't mean to come across as "attacking" your statements or yourself, or in anyway put you down for you know a whole heap more about Laser stuff than I do hands down. I simply wanted a chance to defend myself and to also further stress my BELIEFS and PERSONAL EXPERIENCES on the topic. No hard feelings and I hope you feel the same way.
     
  7. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    ---snip---
    ---snip---

    So Macwas16, please explain the above statement that you made.

    From where I'm sitting, someone called BS on your post, laid out the facts and now you can't remember who you were quoting or find the email that supported your statements.
     
  8. macwas16

    macwas16 New Member

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    When I stated, "I've personally seen that the quality of dracon used by Hyde is far superior to that of the North Sails," I wasn't quoting anybody. That statement was the general conclusion I had made after numerous personal experiences with both sails, aftter talking to many sailors who have drawn the same conclusion themsleves and also by the same conclusion I got by whomever it was that reponded to my e-mail that I sent to Vanguard at info@teamvanguard.com.

    I do not understand why you think I "can't remember who [was] quoting or find the email that supported [my] statements." But my sources were those that I stated above and it's unfortunate that I no longer have the email and wish I did, my inbox just isn't that large. I'm sorry and I should have made this more clear. So yes, I do know exactly who I was "quoting" and I know the exact e-mail that supported my statement.


    Either way, this is besides the point. Mr. Kirkpatrick corrected this earlier and laid down the facts to prove that North and Hyde sails are created equally.

    So I'm still going to go out and by my Hyde sails because I still believe they last longer, even if they really don't, and because many other sailors have agreed with me. It's been said before that if something works for you, stick with it. I guess you'll just have to buy the sail you preffer.
     
  9. Dave Kirkpatrick

    Dave Kirkpatrick New Member

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    Mackenzie,

    I'm curious what expertise you have in evaluating that the dacron cloth used by Hyde is superior. I don't want to cut on you, but if you are seeing variances between the two cloths that I will have to work with North on, I need to know what criteria you are basing these judgements on, and it would of course help to know your experience in working with sailcloth.

    And just to clear up the whole info@teamvanguard.com email business, you really weren't told by anyone here that Hyde sails are better. I've reviewed this with everyone who has answered that email account in the last year (I am frequently called on to help when people get a question they don't really know about) and each person remembers when I addressed this topic originally, and claims never to have written any email claiming that Hyde sails are better.

    At North American regattas, Norths outnumber Hydes by a huge margin. This is logical since Norths come with new boats, and since we sell North vs Hyde in about a 20 to 1 ratio.

    Again, if you feel that Hydes work for you, use them.

    Best,
    Dave Kirkpatrick
    Performance Products Manager
    Vanguard Sailboats
     
  10. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Hi there!
    I´m not conviced by the words of Mr Kirkpatrick.
    Although all (new) Lasersails should be equal, I found, by testing them intensive on the water (at least: two weeks ago with a speedometer on board et cetera at the big lakes in the netherlands), "sometimes" that not everyone (new) sail is exact like the other (new). This means: The same boat in exact the same sailingconditions et cetera runs slower or faster in fact of the little bit different forms of the sail-wing of the different (new) sails.

    However, I only give the advice: test them! - and if you have reasonable points to think, that the new sail you got is not as good like it should be, give them back to the producer. You payed really a lot of money for this few couple of squaremeters, didn´t you?
    In my opinion, this is at least the original out-of-the-box-boat-builder (not the poor merchandizer who must bring the sail to the sailors).
    Here in Europe, we have strong product-warranty-laws. Any lawyer for this waits already for you (we are living in the 3. century :) ), if needed, to secure, on the right way of course, if an original out-of-the-box-boat-builder does not want to give you the right to have by law (And all we Lasersailors of course know, there is a Fundamental Rule and By Laws for our Laserclass, that luckily secure especially in this point of discusion the Lasersailor as customer.).
    In North America and other continents it is maybe the same, I hope for you. From my sailing the Laser as Lasercruiser for 28 years (more than less intensive), I have never seen, that one new Lasersail is exact like the other(new) and I can tell you some other nice stories about this, but unfortunately this is a thread about "exact equal" sails and not for example for new broken daggerboards etc...


    Greetings from Germany
    LooserLu
    DLAS-Member and the now nearly every weekend going out and lasercruising (and -testing) Laserite ;-)
     
  11. Glenn W.

    Glenn W. Member

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    Mr. Kirkpatrick, Would you be so kind to
    tracking down some actual data on sail cloth QC/measurement checks between Contender and North (along with the dates of the checks) and lets see who runs a tighter ship/weave/thread count/resin content, etc etc and post the specs and their tolerances. Preferably in laymans terms and in a spreadsheet.
    Shirley Vanguard keeps tabs/records on its sail makers.
    Many Thanks in Advance
    Glenn Walker

    "5. Regular tests go on between the two manufacturers, both overt and on the sly
    instigated a bunch of spec tightening and general evaluation of how the whole process works" - Dave Kirkpatrick
     
  12. Salty Bob

    Salty Bob New Member

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    How can I tell who made my sail. I recently purchased a new radial sail?
     
  13. Goonie

    Goonie Guest

    To me it would seem advantageous for Dave to defend the sail made by the company his company has an agreement with. Dave is not exactly a neutral opinion.
     
  14. james17

    james17 New Member

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    well to give a neutral opinion i will say that enjoy a new sail why you can, because both makes seem to only last a season or less in great condition and i think we should all stop bickering about which is better because to be frank i think we can agree that the condition of them is crap and we pay far more for a sail than we should! there is no difference in the sails because they are all crap and it is a ONE DESIGN CLASS! otherwise next to our results at regattas it would say:
    i.e. 175781 / JAMES EASTBURY / M / HYDE
    or
    175781 / JAMES EASTBURY / M / NORTH
    as sailors we are being cheated by the sail comapanies in price and quality so maybe before we should discuss which is the better sail something should be done about the sail overall!
     
  15. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    I would love to know the actual cost of a North "Sri Lanka" Laser main sail. The end user cost of almost $500.00 is outrageous given the amount of cloth used and that it's most likely produced by someone making $2.00, (american) per day. All of this statement is my personal opinion and based on no fact. Anyone offering cost facts here is most welcome!

    There is a lot of money being made on these sails. I"ll bet Vanguard annual profits on the sails and royalties outpaces profits on new lasers sold.

    I love my laser and the class and I will continue to get "mugged" and buy new sails, but I don't have to like it.
     
  16. Glenn W.

    Glenn W. Member

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    I don't care if Dave's data is bias or not, I just want to see it. I bet both companies have plenty of hiccups in their processes and would not be proud of their #s. Sort of like when you worked at a resturant, you want people to eat there but you your self don't because you know what goes on behind scenes. (5sec rule)
    G
     
  17. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Compared to an Opti sail @ $425 (APS) the Laser sail @ $465 seems like a bargain!

    In all seriousness, pricing, design,specs, etc has been discussed on the Laser e-list in the past. You can look it up in the List Archives
     
  18. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Aww Man don't tell me that about the Opti. I've got a 3 year old that will need one of those soon!
     
  19. Glenn W.

    Glenn W. Member

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    Yeah the archives are a small piece of the puzzle. According to Benson, they use inferior cloth, However I would still like to see the #s between the two companies. I would be curious to see the cloth orientation as well. Anyway it appears Mr. Kirkpatrick is not going to reply, so no use in beating a dead horse.
     
  20. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Yea, isn't that interesting. An old boss told me once, "Numbers don't lie." I guess we are not going to see any from Vanguard on this one. Oh well.
     

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