New Foils

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by Matt, Jun 21, 2010.

  1. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    What if Compton can no longer make the blades for the price LP wants to pay, LP refuses to pay more and/or is running up a large AR and not paying on time....
     
  2. dredies

    dredies Member

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    Can you please elaborate on what these tolerances are? What is the range?
     
  3. Eric_R

    Eric_R D10 Secretary

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  4. dredies

    dredies Member

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  5. Eric_R

    Eric_R D10 Secretary

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    Those are probably in the construction manual and are not made public.
     
  6. dredies

    dredies Member

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    That's what I figured. Since Alan has said that the boards are within a weight and stiffness tolerance range, I'm curious as to what that range actually is.
     
  7. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    I sail in 'dirty' waters with all sorts of objects floating in it, especially after a good rain. As a result, I have repeatedly broken pieces of my board. Although I have been able to do the repairs, I would be happy to pay a bit more (say 10%) for a stronger blade. Will the blades from Infused Foils in fact be more impact resistant?
     
  8. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    It's amazing the crap we let spew forth with no rebuttal.

    1. How many dollars are we going to save per boat?? How many English jobs are being lost? Would we pay the $5 per boat to keep the jobs with those who have served us well for the past 30 years?? Are we disloyal greedy bastards who will simply go for the $5 lower price for the $7000 boat that is sold by a monopoly supplier??

    Weight and stiffness range??

    I have the technology in my head such that shop couold produce Laser blades so exactly like the design shape no normal person could improve it without the use of specialized machinerry.

    My technology is the same technology that built the 1953 Corvette bodies.

    The weight could be easily controlled to within fractions of an ounce and the structure could be a glass resin composite that has no steel rods , is much harder to chip, and would be easily repaired with commonly availble hardware store materials.

    I might have difficulty building a crappy enough board to be as flexible as the Compton but with a guaranteed purchase of 10,000 blades per year I could probably get the price down to $20 to $30 apiece at the factory door or maybe $100 in the retail outlets.

    and...as I have been out of the manufacturing end of match metal production since 1980.....
    My bet is a business that actually does this sort of thing could do it better than I could.


    Now...Did anybody ask the guys in Union City, Pennsylvania or Ashtabula, Ohio about producing laser blades or is this just a bunch of crap being rammed down our (they sure hope we are) ignorant throats.??
     
  9. dredies

    dredies Member

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    Fred - for what it's worth - you have my vote to start producing! Of course, you have to remember that you have to factor in a way to make the owner of Laser Performance rich :D
     
  10. IntensitySails

    IntensitySails Member

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    I am currently producing Daggerboards and rudder blades in the USA of FRP with balsa core for a retail price of $159.99 for the daggerboard and $109.99 for the rudder blade. Our only issue is that we cannot keep up with demand.

    Now if the lower trailing edge design could be changed then the chipping issue would no longer be a problem for any of the boards for the Laser.
     
  11. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    It seems to me the most effecient way to make the blades would be a continuous extrusion of reinforced plastic that is cut , rounded, and then painted.

    I don't believe making teh builders a big profit should be a problem with any sensibly produced blade.

    my question remains.

    Just why are the 120,000 of us who bought one design blades in good faith being abandoned by the builders and dealers from whom they were bought?
     
  12. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    As one who argues for the "strict one design" for the boat, I actually don't have anything against the new blades (subject to knowing the differences between "standard" and "elite" versions).

    People say there is no difference in performance - so I can only assume this is true. Then if they are better in terms of strength/not warping with heat, etc. then good luck to those who get them with their new boats. When my old ones are due for replacement I too will have the new version.

    In many ways the change is not dissimilar to the XD kicker/outhaul/Cunningham change. Not cheap for those on a budget but you can purchase the new versions if you really want them. Certainly a different level of change compared to the guy recently proposing the hull be built lighter, etc. which would have made all existing boats uncompetitive with no upgrade.

    Maybe one strange aspect is that (to me) there appears to have been no involvement of the membership about this change. I can appreciate that some changes might be required by the builder (e.g. is some materials become banned or unavailable, new regulations, etc. - they have to keep making boats). But it sounds like this change is a choice they have made on their own. I can appreciate that they must be allowed to make commercial decisions but I would have expected that to be to different suppliers providing identical product (same material, same construction, etc.). Maybe I missed the vote on this by the membership.

    Ian
     
  13. 117300

    117300 New Member

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    Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, I have heard (from those what know) the XTM boards make a pretty big difference on pointing and speed, so, let the arguments begin!
     
  14. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    The thing is "heard from where". Because some guy who once saw a Laser down the pub saying this is a very different matter from somebody e.g. in the Olympic squad.

    Source of such a comment is important in its credibility.

    Ian
     
  15. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    I just happen to know some sailors who are in the UK squad system, I will see what they think.

    Until they start appearing at club level and more results are analysed (ie does sailor X suddenly move several places up the fleet) then there is no way to know.

    Cheers,

    Paul
     
  16. 117300

    117300 New Member

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    Sorry, I did realise that came out as a bit of a "my cousin knows a guy who knows someone who went to school with the pope" type web rumour! I don't want to burn any bridges I've built, so I won't specifically name anyone, but yeah, it's someone who knows the boats very well, and has access to the new foils at this early stage in their development.

    There wasn't much they could do, the old company went bust, everyone complains about the price of the original Laser equipment anyway, and the numbers still didn't add up. If the new foils are such a game changer, those who buy new sails every year to compete will doubtlessly find the money, those who just race at club level are likely to lump it.

    New boats without bits at the height of the season is not surprising, when everyone is busiest, mistakes get made and stocks get short.
     
  17. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    From a sailor's point of view, they need blades that are "builder supplied" to be legal. Said blades obviously meet certain measurement tolerances and weight.

    When it comes to the material required, I don't know how specific the rules are. Obvioiusly wood is no longer an option. They may have enough wiggle room, something like "fiberglass" or "composite", to allow the bulder to make an independent commerical decision as you describe.
     
  18. Eric_R

    Eric_R D10 Secretary

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    There is no need for the membership to vote on this. There are no changes to the class rules. The blades are being made to spec using different materials.
     
  19. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    The real truth is nobody gives a rats patoot. If we all need to buy new blades we either will or we will sail off speed. The game will go on.

    Whatever keeps the builders in business and keeps toys available to play our game will be that which we accept.

    If everybody complains a lot, people may wander off to avoid all the whining.
     
  20. dredies

    dredies Member

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    Perhaps this is a bit naive, but it seems that we could be much better served if Laser Performance was purchased by the class association. Rather than trying to make the owner of Full Moon Holdings more cash, presumably the class would have the members' interests at heart. Rather than making decisions based purely on what brings in the most dough, builder's decisions could be directed to the best interest of the class and long-term success.
     

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