New bailer replacement...spring

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by fracisco, Aug 21, 2008.

  1. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    As I recall, it took John Christiansen about 5 years to get the clew strap approved, one should not give up. Of course, he first had to convince people they wanted it. I'm guessing you don't have that problem.

    On the other hand, it sounds like you had bad timing with the class as Adam French, unfortunately, had to terminate his position as Technical Officer at the start of the Fall in 2006. Clive Humphries is the new Technical Officer, having just started at the beginning of Summer, and you should try (again) with him.
     
  2. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    I emailed his boss H Weilmann? in Switzerland to see if he was still my point of contact, and also received no reply.



    Looks like you're not the only one being ignored by him. You should talk to Dr. Loser.
     
  3. Levent

    Levent Member

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    Anyone heard about the auto bailer made by Nautos ? I saw it at 70$ in a store, I don't find it on their web site though, it's suppose to work really well and no need to do anything, it's completely automatic ... very expensive too, it's really a tradition for these auto bailers ...
     
  4. mlemieux1978

    mlemieux1978 New Member

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    I saw the nautos bailer at westcoastsailing.net, completely overpriced and not automatic, they are just the new manufacturer, same product as always..........
    No thread highjacking..... my springs get here today and I intend to field test immediately. I will tell all my competitors about it of course and if they don't like it I will change back. (after I tease them a little) As a lake sailor I just want a bailer that will stay closed for more than a week. Maybe the way around this is for the spring manufacturer to work a licensing deal with nautos...... but i guess they aren't interested, as per stephen green's post. Why change anything, right?
     
  5. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    As I see it, most people seem to agree the springs are “a good idea” or at least they would not begrudge others from using them. Only real issue seems to be the rules and that they may or may not be covered under different people’s interpretation. Under the rules bjmoose posted above, only sticky point seems to be the first bit of rule 13. Seems that far easier than getting rule changes voted through by the membership would be for the builder to start supplying the springs. Once they become “builder supplied” then I think the only potential “illegal aspect” will have disappeared. Builder can make loads of money given their normal mark-up, people can have equipment that lasts more than a few weeks.

    After all, builders only have to stock a few – but if they should find they start selling them then they might opt to stock a few more.

    When I purchased my Laser a couple of years ago the O-ring lasted about 3 weeks and I’ve not yet got round to changing it. Make these legal and I would probably get round to fitting them. Given my experience of how long the O-rings last I am not too motivated to do the work, then do it again, then again, etc.

    Ian
     
  6. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    There is an interesting rule in the UK for building planning permission. Before you can start construction of most buildings you need to obtain “planning permission” from your local planning office (local government). They have to check with neighbours, very local council, and accept public comments, make their own judgement and then pass it to a committee for approval/rejection. If it is a straightforward thing, no meaningful objections ad they agree it is OK the formal presentation to the committee can be skipped and the planning officer can approve – much quicker and easier.

    Maybe for changes like this the ILCA should have some mechanism whereby it can publish the proposed change on the internet for a few weeks (maybe nominated forums as well), inviting informal comments. Check with .g. builder(s) and measurer(s), etc. In the absence of significant objections that raise valid issues maybe the committee should have the right to approve without going through the lengthy rule change process.

    I believe there are quite a few what I would call trivial or “maintenance” issues with the rules that really don’t need taking to the full membership in the form of a full vote, etc.). for example, something I would like to see changed is to allow people to sail wearing a watch that includes an electronic compass. They are useless but having them excluded is really starting to limit choice of watches. Trivial and more of a “rules maintenance” type of thing.

    And if the ISAF don’t like it because it’s “an Olympic Class” – tough. From my perspective a Laser is about more than a few people having a few races every 4 years – particularly when they don’t even comply with the Laser class rules for their competition.

    Ian
     
  7. Sailandsurf_89

    Sailandsurf_89 New Member

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    ok just got the new springs for my bailer and these things are absolutly amazing.... a snap to install and the action is amazing... i will never buy anymore bands at a time
     
  8. fracisco

    fracisco New Member

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    How could that piece of crap be $65 now? I remember when it was $20 and thought it should have been a freebie.
     
  9. Levent

    Levent Member

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    The bailer's price is really a joke, a piece of plastic ... Mine needs to be repaired and I will install the springs. I am new to the laser world, I decided to laugh about this bailer spring issue because honestly it's really ridiculous, it's only a plug to drain the cockpit and who's going to dismantle your bailer to see if it's "legal" and who thinks you have an advantage over the other competitors because you have made this "modification", anyone ever mentioned you're boat is heavier with these 2 springs ? :eek:
     
  10. sastanley

    sastanley ILCA Member

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    I just installed these springs yesterday, and they are great. When I am in Annapolis this weekend, I am picking up a few more pairs for my other Laser buddies.

    Thanks Stephen...keep trying to get them approved, this member will vote for them!

    ILCA member
    Solomons, MD
     
  11. scalisip

    scalisip New Member

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    lets see, Currently: new bailer springs at APS, 9$
    If class approves and sells at dealers $20

    P
     
  12. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Soooo they should be $ 9.00 for the next 3-5 years.
     
  13. Sailandsurf_89

    Sailandsurf_89 New Member

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    Yet another reason why the springs are so much better than the rings... so this weekend i was pushing my boat off the dolly and forgot to put the auto-bailer up. The chute comes flying out of the autobailer blah blah blah... Had i had the rings in... they would have been broken and the bailler use-less, the springs allowed me to simply unscrew the auto-bailer, re-install and boom, good to go
     
  14. Stephen_Green

    Stephen_Green Member

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    .. and even if that had broken a pivot on the bailer body, they will still work!
     
  15. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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  16. pez

    pez Member

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    This kind of issue is one of my pet peeves about one design. On one hand the Laser class being so tightly controlled has contributed greatly to the class as a whole, yet on the other hand we have emotions running hot over a $0.20 spring that holds a 1.5" plastic door up...

    I'm pro-springs. While it's clear that they do not comply with the letter of the class rules, they do Comply with the spirit of the class rules by making a part work the way it was intended to work. I'm certain that the class rules regarding this particular part were not designed in such a way as to have the bailer only work as well as you have recently replaced the o-rings that badly support it.
     
  17. Levent

    Levent Member

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    Hi, I ordered the springs from Ebay yesterday. What is this big issue about ? what officials put the boats apart to see if they comply, will they cut the hull in half too, please explain it to me I am ignorant. When I race nobody bothers me with these issues.:eek:
     
  18. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    Which is exactly the reason for why "the class" MUST take a hardline stance in interpreting the Class Rules, in particular when it comes to non-builder supplied equipment that is not explicitly allowed by the class rules.

    Actually, it is a $4.98 part (or two for $9.95 at APS), with a single o-ring at around $0.90 (at APS). But to be fair, the "core issue" is the integrity of the one design rules, not the cost. I would certainly agree that this looks like a ridicuous over-application of the Class Rules. But I think you really have to be consistent in interpretations, otherwise you open the door for other alterations which could have a much bigger impact on the game.

    There is a "right" way to deal with this that is simple and straightforward - either make the bailer springs builder supplied -or- modify rule 13 to allow the o-rings to be replaced with stainless steel springs. If these are really the greatest thing since sliced bread then I'd think a rule change vote would be automatic, no?

    And it won't be the first time rule 13 has been modified, either. For example, it was only a 2-3 years ago that class membership approved a change in wording which included: the self bailer opening pin may be secured to the cockpit floor with self adhesive plastic tape.

    I continue to suggest that if people really want to see this as a rule change, they send an email to the ILCA Technical Officer. This entire thread can very easily turned into a complete non-issue.
     
  19. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    You're right, nobody is going to start inspecting Laser bailers at major events in North America looking for illegal springs. And someone filing a measurement protest would need some pretty solid evidence to back up their claim before a measurer started tearing into a boat.

    We sail events based on the trust that all the competitors are sailing by the Class Rules and have the advantage, with Lasers being so strictly controlled, that we (as in all of us) can easily see if other competitors have renegade blades, or sails, or masts, or .... The rest we take on faith and I'd hate to see people starting to think it was ok to look one way for some things because "its stupid". You need to draw the line somewhere, why not at the letter of the Class Rules?

    If a Class Rule seems onerous or silly, then work to get it changed. Lasers are strictly controlled, but as we all know the boats are evolving with time (albeit very slowly). First stop on that program is the ILCA Technical Officer.

    Ok, Motherhood and Apple Pie mode off... we now return everyone to their regularly scheduled program :D
     
  20. bjmoose

    bjmoose Member

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    Email sent. Suggest others on this thread do the same.
     

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