More Info for the 2009 Masters Worlds

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by johnde, Sep 19, 2008.

  1. dredies

    dredies Member

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    I'm with you Rob. The issue I see is that you could have WON the North Americans and still get bumped by someone who finished dead last if they attended a previous World Masters event.
     
  2. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    And I STILL don't make the cut. However there are 449 applications for 400 slots. I would imagine at least 49 people will have a change of plans. I would think all those who applied and really really want to go will get to go.

    Now as long as I still have a job in August...
     
  3. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    No No...Job is bad....Then you might have to work!!
     
  4. MBC LASER FLEET#9

    MBC LASER FLEET#9 New Member

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  5. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Ha! Love it. My placing didn't move one space after the ranking update.
     
  6. MBC LASER FLEET#9

    MBC LASER FLEET#9 New Member

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    Update. It looks like everyone who entered has a solid chance of making it past the cut now that the entry limit is 400. With the sailors who have already declined, there are 438 applications for 400 spots. There are currently 156 spots offered who have not entered and have until 12/26 to make payment or their spot is recycled.

    Let's hope that next year there is a qulaifying system of some sort in place. I must say that overall, it looks like they have it right. I am not qualifying yet, but I have not sailed in enough major regatta's to merit a high qualification, which seems fair to me.



    I would guess that even the 10 late applications that were submitted will be able to go.
     
  7. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    I am certain all those involved did their very best to easily hurdle what they believed would be the obstacles.

    It is always easy to whine after somebody else sets up a system.

    It is also easy to ask those who previously cared and who have set up systems previously about what worked or didn't and what those with previous experience would have done.

    Next time we will have the option to ask all the previous sailors organizers, and hosts ( with a new addition of the 2008-9 sailors) how things were done, what worked and how to improve upon their performance.

    The basic simple truth is, If you want next time to be different, get involved and take care of thart part of the organization about which you personally care.

    It is not a daunting task, nobody expects you to spend ten seconds working on that which does not concern you. With the exception of our paid staff who have specific job descriptions ( and who do lots more as they see fit) the positions are volunteer not paid.

    2009 is already water under the bridge, over the dam, down the drain. There still may be volunteer jobs related to the actual hosting which I am certain the hosts would love to have filled... but our concern now is, "How do we remember to set up a selection system for future masters worlds ( 2010??)
    We must ALWAYS use teh system so in years when we need it, the system is already polished from repeated use.

    My pet project?? Make certain we INVITE our recent champions rather than make them remind us who they are. Make certain our current NA-ILCA champions are in a position to DECLINE spaces rather than have to read websites and send specific emails to qualify.

    Many, if not the majority, of our Laser sailors are people who really do not do the "organizational thing." If our entry systems are designed to "finally get that guy who always registers at the last minute to miss one event so he straightens up and lives right."
    ...We are deliberatly driving away most of our unique sampling of the world's diverse sailors.

    That Laser sailors are loners and a pain socially is simply reality. Many can't get a ride on a team boat. Many can't keep crew on their own boats. Many just don't like hanging out that much with anybody.

    Our Class leaders need to learn to revel in their accomplishment when they manage to assemble a fleet .

    You might think managing Laser sailors is like herding cats...

    No..Cats are easier to herd.

    But with Laser sailors, just like cats, if all you do is put the dry food out for five minutes on an eat or starve system...the creatures will go live somewhere else where they feel wanted.

    THis year's example: Scott Young gets an email and a phone call if he fails to answer the email, "Are you taking your spot at the Halifax worlds?"

    Eric Faust won in Houston and is on a list that says, "Nobody told us you ever won anything." He should have a spot available for him to decline.

    Says me.

    It really IS that simple.
     
  8. Michelle

    Michelle New Member

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    Under Fred's system the current Radial Apprentice World Champ wouldn't be on the wait list!
     
  9. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    I don't have a whole "system" but I do have thoughts:

    last five years NA champions in all divisions
    Last year top five
    2 years back top four
    three years back top three
    four years back top two
    Five back just teh champs.

    Als. Any sailor who finished top five at the worlds when he was the same relative age in his division would get to go this time>>>>>HUH???

    By that I mean if at age 37 you were fourth at teh masters worlds and you are now 47 you get in as our rep in masters this time.

    I would assign those spots after the first set above.
    I wouldalso let anybody who has ever won be our rep again but I am not certtain which priority I would give.

    Then.... Sailors who have won open NA events should be considered. we need to decide which events top consider and why.


    Somewhere Way way down the list would be first come first served.

    In fact "first come first served should only be available if the spaces are available for sailors who ahve never been in a Laser regatta ever and we have no rational way to assigning priority...

    Of course that would also leave out past champs in other sailboats who would come ahead of the first come first served group.
     
  10. Krycek

    Krycek Member

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    i would just like the ability to drive to Nova Scotia and sail..... sucks to be 25 and not all that impressive :D
     
  11. MBC LASER FLEET#9

    MBC LASER FLEET#9 New Member

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    How about a series of qualifying regatta's ? East Coast, West Coast etc. After all, aren't we supposed to encourage more laser sailing. If you make it known beforehand, and have a number of quallifying places available and 4 or 5 different regatta's at different venue's there can be no griping. If you don't show up at any of them, how bad did you want to go anyhow? You could always allow an additional number of "wild card" entries by resume for extenuating circumstances, but it would be a fair way to decide that is determined "on the water" as opposed to some kind of mathematical matrix. Imagine the participation at the "Last Chance qualifier".
     
  12. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    I don't think so.

    There is no mention in the website published rules about "ranking." All it says is if "there are more applicants than spots available then entries will be taken in order of registration."
    1. to be eligible:
    a...you must to have sailed in one fo the last five worlds.

    or

    b you must have "Competed in a major North American Master's event (North Americans, US or Canadian Nationals, MMWE, etc.) AND finished in the top 75% of your fleet."

    There are no exceptions written. If more than 35 sign up the applications will be taken in order of registration. ( I think that in the rules "registration" has to mean "application" as you cannot register until you are offered a spot.)

    There is no mention of what order would have been used had fewer than our allocation signed up but that is now moot.
     
  13. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    I'm still confused by the rules, but I THINK this is what is happening.

    Of the ~200 who signed up, roughly 150 qualified under 1a) or 1b). These people were ranked top to bottom. The first 130 or so have received offers, and the remaining 20 are at the top of the waiting list. The 50 who didn't qualify have been ranked by order of application. They are next on the waiting list.

    However, I think what you are tyring to point out is:
    1. You didn't agree with the initial qualification system
    2. Given that, you don't think the system outlined is being followed as written
    Correct?
     
  14. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    I think he is also questioning if the ranking system was actually used/applied as the rule stated and there are some language issues with the rule regarding "Application/Applicant" and "Registered".
     
  15. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    My careful reading of teh NA ILCA website says to me "there is no system!"

    The only way to make sense of teh rules as posted is to ad some of your own "it must mean this" knowledge.

    I am pretty certain the writers MEANT to have the rule say ..

    Everybody who files a timely application with the ILCA and who sends an email before November 13, 2008 to Sherry claiming to be eligible under #1 will be issued an invitation ahead of those who fail to do so.

    Eerybody else who wants to enter will be taken in order of their initial application to teh ILCA.


    Unfortunatly...The NA-ILCA website rules do NOT say that.

    The brief version of what is posted on teh ILCA site is:

    if more sailors apply than thre are available berths we will offer entry only to those who qualify under #1 and only on a first come first served basis.

    There is no mention of a ranking system and a selection process other than first come first served.


    Thye may be applying some sort of formula but no such formula is publised .
     
  16. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    Happy New Year everyone!

    Qualification systems for the various Laser Class World Championships always draw close scrutiny, in particular from the sea lawyers looking for a loophole to climb through. With the Master's having a qualification system for the first time its no suprise, I guess, at the legs this topic has grown on TLF!

    The underlying philosophy of the Master's qualification system has been discussed before but I suppose a quick summary is worthwhile: the intent of the qualification rules was to divide sailors into three groups: those that have participated in a "recent" Master Worlds, those that are active Master's sailors and then everyone else. Within each of those three groups the sailors are then ranked by order of application for entry.

    A key element is that the sailors were responsible for sending to the ILCA-NA office, before the December 1 deadline, some sort of documentation to indicate which group they belonged to. Unfortunately, a few sailors didn't send the information and ended up in the third category when they might rightly have been in one of the first two groups.

    I will agree that without the above mindset the wording of the qualification rules can be read differently by some. Certainly we can argue about this interpretation, or that... but, just as with the Class Rules, there is only one opinion that counts, that of the Executive Secretary and she has consistently applied the above interpretation throughout the entire process.

    The good news, however, is that ILCA has assured the North American Region that all further berth reallocations will come to us. As issues start to surface (changing plans, the impact of the economic downturn, the difficulty of getting a charter boat, etc) there are people not taking their berths which is beginning to open up plenty of slots for those still on the list. Right now there is every indication that those still awaiting berths will get them in the next round of reallocations. In fact, if the numerology currently on the ILCA website is correct then all of those on the list will get in and,in fact, the event will be slightly undersubscribed.

    For better or worse, ILCA will apply this system to all future world championships, including the Master's. From ILCA's side, the primary intent is to prevent a Master's Worlds from being overrun by local entries, ensuring a "true" World Championship. As such, when the event is "off continent" the initial North American allocation may not end up having much bearing on our final number of entries (e.g. compare the Australian entry list to their initial allocation for Halifax). In addition, the Master's Worlds are a truly unique event, where for many its as much about the event as it is about the competition. As such, until its clearly demonstrated to be broken, the above scheme (albeit with better wording) will probably remain a key component of future ILCA-NA Master's Worlds qualification systems.
     
  17. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    This is an important point. It's not enough just to qualify. Those who qualify need to jump through the hoops and provide the information.

    I guess in an ideal situation, top qualifiers would be sought out and encourage to attend. However running a 400-boat regatta is a lot of work, and the organizers need all the help they can get. What gets me is there are several people who had automatic entry or have been extended offers, but they have not responded after several weeks.

    Thank you for providing the detailed explanation. The three catergories actually make sense. I realize sorting through the applications was a work in progress, but maybe the details could been made clearer a little sooner.

    Personally, I think it's great that 400+ people hae expressed an interest in attending the event. It shows how big master's sailing is on not just big regionally or nationally, but worldwide.
     
  18. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Over the last seven years I ahve repeatedly found that giving advice to our clas management is a dangerous proposition. As a rule, advice from me is received as, "Whatever that guy says, we must not ever appear to agree with him."

    I keep hoping the day will come when my advice and council is seen as coming from a long time very concerned and experienced member of the sailing community whose knowledge is something to be exploited.

    I will be 56 in a few weeks. Maybe this time somebody will consider the cource and listen to see what the very frustrated old fart is screaming about.


    This isn't personal. It is philisophical and somewhat relates to why we even have an association.

    I am bothered by the entire concept of our employee telling us or being told to tell us she will not grant us an entry unless we remind her about our qualifications.

    I see the purpose of the ILCA -NA secretary position as follows.

    We sailors realized we were not doing a good job of dragging ourselves to Laser events. For that reason we hired someone to drag us to our own events.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    When my predecessor and I performed the secretary job we described it to others as follows:

    I am paid to organize sailboat events and drag as many people as possible to each of those events.

    Decisions about allocation of our time and the other available sailing related resources were made 100% by asking, " Does it help Laser sailing?"

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    The association and its employees hve wandered off that mission.

    The purpose of the ILCA-NA is not to control the game. The purpose of the ILCA-NA is to serve the game and its players. The reason we have an association is not to control ourselves. The association is simply a tool to make the game better.

    Personally?? I didn't send a resume to Sherri because I know Sherri already knows who I am and that I have been near the front of the masters fleet at multiple events for the last two decades. There is no reason for me to waste my time enumerating my qualifications or for Sherri to waste her time reading about me.

    The reason I have been acting like a pain in the ass since I was placed on the "unknown history" list is quite simply I am annoyed by the stupidity of the system.

    What sort of tomfoolery is a system where our secretary acts like she has no idea about the qualifications of Eric Faust and Henry DeWolf. Quite seriously. If after three years on the job she didn't know who these guys are and how they relate to the Laser sailing community ( or that I am the pain in the butt past secretary who won the light air race during the NA Masters in Austin) she would be too incompetent to perform the job.


    "YOU MUST send an email (to somebody who already knows anyway) detailing your qualifications?? How very very stupid!!!

    But..for some reason our ILCA-NA President thinks it is appropriate that Sherri needs an email detailing the qualifications of sailors with whom our current secretary should long since have developed a personal relationship??

    OK so let's suppose some special interpretation of service to the members includes equally disqualiying those who fail to abide by the letter of the rules.

    I didn't send an emai and I am down teh list with all teh otehrs who failed to do so.

    Fine. let's apply the rules to the letter.


    Currently, I am further annoyed that these people who have decided to be sticklers with respect to my behavior are not being sticklers with respect to their own behavior.

    Simply;

    If you are going to deprive me of my place on the list because you are "consistently applying the rules" you certainly better apply the rules EXACTLY as those rules are written.

    The fact is the rules say one thing and the secretary is consistently doing something else.

    Sorry guys.

    Making up a set of rules and then ignoring those rules yourself while demanding others comply is exactly how you make a huge mess and make those you are jacking around very very mad at you.

    Luckily the halifax problem seems to be solving itself. This time our self management incompetence as a group of North American sailors is being bailed out by the economy and an optimistically over expanded event... We will likely have enough spaces at the venue for anybody who wants ot show up.

    In the near future, at least until we forget this screw up happened, we need to do lots better.

    Specifically, from square one, the goal of the Association management should have been to make it as simple as possible for our sailors to find their way to the event.

    As a rule, Laser sailors are lousy at pre-registering, or virtually anything else having to do with organization of the game they are sometimes willing to show up and play..

    Our association needs to serve the available sailors, not serve only those who are able to live as proper citizens according to rules written by those who wish to be in charge.

    It is time to review the recent fundamental management mistakes and, while ILCA-NA has the mirrors in place, the fundamental goals of our association.

    Last, if you cannot tolerate advice fom me, please at least take the time to seek advice from Alan Briadribb. There is a reason he was our very most successful Class Secretary.

    No..not A reason.... There are hundreds of reasons and in the months and months I spent picking his brain I know I learned only a small percentage of what he knows is fundamentally important to the survival of a sailing association and whose importance very few others seem to comprehend.

    Currently the class is failing to do many many things Allan taught me to do while repeating, "This is important. If you don't so it everything will fall apart."

    Please, if you cannot stand accepting help from me, get it someplace!!!
     
  19. Mike M

    Mike M New Member

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    Fred, I have a different perspective – as somebody who is fairly new on the laser masters scene (but has sailed almost all masters events on the east coast in the last two years) I would be somewhat disappointed to find that places for a world championship were based, to an extent, on our secretaries personal knowledge of sailors performance. This would smack of a cosy club for people who already know each other rather than a fair and open system open to all including newcomers.

    I also think its reasonable to expect that if people want to go to a world championship they should be able to log onto the internet, send an email and complete an online application form. Yes, I know laser sailors, apparently, may not like this level of organization but people from all walks of life and ages seem to be able to cope these days so maybe we should assume that laser sailors can as well (they seem to be pretty good at logging on and commenting on the forum on a daily basis)

    I don’t know the guy, but Tracy made the point at the beginning of the process that everyone who wanted to go would end up going and it looks like he will be proved right.

    See everyone in Halifax (and Cabarete, Palm Beach, Jenson beach, Sarasota, Wrightville Beach etc.) Cheers!
     
  20. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    Fred, what if Sherri has temporarily hired an assistant to process the applications who knows nothing about the sailors? Aside from that, it looks to me, by saying Sherri knows who you are, like you think you are too good to follow the rules in this situation. :eek: :(
     

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