Masts, Spars, Carbon, and prices

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by Ross B, Apr 3, 2007.

  1. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    i just looked up OK Dinghy masts, which just went carbon, and is a training class for the Finn, their very nice, and converted to american money, they run at $1,573.36 USD, which isent too bad, considering how long they will last, and not permently bend, i know i would be first in line for one if we could get them for Lasers!

    http://www.c-tech.co.nz/classok.htm
     
  2. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Re: Price of Laser sails

    $1,573.36, say what? Laser masts are $500.00 USD and they don't bend/break that often. I've owned 4 lasers since 1983 and have only bent one lower section. All full rigs. I'll take my chances and either invert or buy a new top or bottom section for $250.00 thanks. Now, about that sail price.... I wouldn't mind the existing ones so much if they would last longer than 1 good season.
     
  3. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    Re: Price of Laser sails

    well remember that there are people out there that sail more often then you, and probably sail alot harder, and break stuff, a lot! i know guys that go through boats every six months, sails every regatta, and throw away spars like its goin out of style

    if we made better products(masts) this wouldent be happening, by one, maybe another as a spare, and thats it

    I ALWAYS travel with a spare topsection because of the threat that it will break/bend/snap, and i have 6 more in my garage of varying vintage, I beleive this is rather uncommon for other classes, it should be stopped
     
  4. OliLaser

    OliLaser Guest

    Re: Price of Laser sails

     
  5. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Re: Price of Laser sails

    The top guys in my district just buy a new boat every year. $5,600.00 for a new boat, sail it one year, sell it for $4,900.00 and buy a new one. It grows trhe fleet and you spend almost the same as you would buying a new sail. If the spars are snapping left and right as you guys say something is wrong.

    I sail a bit at our local club that has about a 20 boat active fleet and I travel to about 3 road events a year. When I look back over the past 3 years I can only recall seeing about 2 or 3 busted top sections, (radial or full combined). I think I saw one top section go at the 2005 US NA's and it blew a solid 20 with big seas. Over 80 boats.

    How many spars snapped at the East Coast Midwinters, West Coast Midwinters or Orange Bowl this year??? How about all of them combined?? don't recall any top sections going in Athens in 2004.

    I know a lot of guys that carry spare top sections, but mostly in case one bends rather than it breaks. When one breaks you better have some sails too.

    I'm on the east coast and sail in coastal breeze, so it blows more often than not. Spars did not start breaking until we increased the loads with the new vang system. You want to see spars bust? Try the 40:1 vang you mentioned before. The one time I bent a lower section in 1993 my boat was new and sitting on a trailer in a parking lot, rigged when a 40 mph preeze blew through and even though the boat was facing dead into the wind it blew the whole rig rolling across the parking lot like a renegade grocery cart! Problem was the lower spar was not "seasoned" and got a little curve in it.

    Lastly, (as I'm sure you're aware) you'll save a lot of top sections if you ease the vang some before bearing away at the weather mark.

    BTW. The Laser IS relatively cheap at the new hull price when compared to anything comparable in a high performance single hand dingy. I really don't want a spar that cost almost half as much as the boat.
     
  6. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    Re: Price of Laser sails

    dude, the OK spar i mentioned earlier, is only a 3rd of the price of a laser :)

    lets get real here lol
     
  7. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Re: Price of Laser sails

    I am real. What do you think the price of it would be once it goes through all the same "middle men" our class sails currently go through???
     
  8. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    Re: Price of Laser sails

    well with any luck, our newly redesigned sail that fit our newly redesigned carbon 2 piece finn-like mast, and there wont be a middle men! we will just be able to walk up to a loft, and say: HEY!!! gimme a laser sail!!! cash or credit? cash, cuz im cool like that
     
  9. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    Re: Price of Laser sails

    but i think in reality, if it goes the way i want it to(which probably wont happen...) the sails would probably cost 100 maybe 120 more, but your getting a much better sail, made out of mylar, kevlar, all the *lar stuff, the clear stuff, it will hold its shape MUCH better, last probably 3, maybe 4 times as longer, good chance it will be faster,bleed off earlier, and overall be a better product

    change is inevitable
     
  10. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Re: Price of Laser sails

    That's a good one. I agree on a lot of your points just not the carbon mast deal. However, I've been in these boats for 24 years and while have voted against several of the changes over the years I've been happy that they went through after I actually used the new gear.
     
  11. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Re: Price of Laser sails

    Yuk. Don't like the "lar" stuff. Too noisy. I thought the Finn masts were one piece and they use a halyard. Also, I understand the top guys get sails and carbon spars designed to their weight and sailing style? Big bucks!
     
  12. lightninggeorge

    lightninggeorge New Member

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    Re: Price of Laser sails

    Well-the best main i can buy for my lightning is 6 and change when they're on sale.
    I don't want kevlar in this class-I am inherently conservative about things that work well and i'm poor. But the cost is high for a low quality sail. heavier cloth would last longer-hold its shape better, and only slip a slightly reduced kickback (royalty) to the class association.
    I'm in a nice pickle. I did the frugal thing and bought a boat I thought I could afford instead of a money-pit cruiser. My club has a great laser fleet and is very competitive; I'm going to race heavily and planned on new sails. But two or three sails a season? My best North Lightning main is good for 5 years of club racing, and many years as practice sail. And that reminds me, those crummy plastic blocks...
    George
     
  13. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    Re: Price of Laser sails

    Finn masts are one piece, and all finn masts and sails are set your weight, but for lasers i propose that it all be one design, doesent matter how much you weight, but they will bleed off, being carbon,and to keep with the laser mast being 2 part, the new past would also be 2 part, and would be a wing, it would slide togther, but also lock, kind of slide and twist, and its a toss up between a halyard and a catarman style with a thick boldrope that you slit up, and it locks in place at the top

    I fully support a change of boom/traveler blocks

    there is a trade off with the *lar sails, they do make noise, but dear god so do ours! ever been on a starting line when its blowing with fresh out of the bag sails, just as noisy as the finns!, its not any worse, just remember that in the long run, the slight price increase is worth it, they will last longer, and be better

    and if you dont want to buy em spankin new, you could always buy em slightly used from olympic guys after big regattas, i remember an olympic hopefully telling me everything he had was for sale, even the clothes off his back!:)
     
  14. fat-n-old

    fat-n-old Member

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    Re: Price of Laser sails

    In fact this is one of the reasons that the Laser is an olympic class.
     
  15. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Re: Price of Laser sails

    OK. We're about to pound this puppy to death, but one last point. As it relates to bent/broken spars. Why do you think Robert Scheidt continued to use the "old style" vang system and even won the 2004 games w/one, (other than the fact he is one of the best laser sailors of all time)? I'm surprised the recent SW interview did not ask this question, but I wonder if he did it to avoid breaking/bending the top section? I think they should allow the sleeve on the top section or something to support the heavier loads being applied with the new vang, but not carbon.
     
  16. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    Re: Price of Laser sails

    the reason is because Schiedt was comfortable with the old vang at the time of hte Olympics, same for Ainslie, i think very few had the new rigging, i think he still uses the old style cuz it works for him
     
  17. OliLaser

    OliLaser Guest

    Re: Price of Laser sails

    Thing is that most parts on a laser are quite cheap a little more quality instead of quantity would be good. Putting a block that costs an extra $10 that lasts forever or pretty close, I see as a good thing. I personaly think the rules are way to tight. Like the amount of purchase in the outhal and cuningham????? Doers it realy matter if Joe has to pull with half the force as Bob to get the vang on????????? No it doesn't, It's a pain in the ass for young kids in the radial really.
     
  18. Georg W.F.

    Georg W.F. Member

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    Re: Price of Laser sails

    If you cannot pull on the outhaul or cunningham with the new purchase, I don't think you are strong enough to sail a laser. I often leave out a loop, because the purchase is so high!

    I don't know about your experience, but the blocks I have on my boat seem to last forever. I have seen many expensive ball-bearing blocks, which were broken. I still have to see a broken laser block...

    What is your point about quality/quantity?

    I do think that we are too often thinking that everything should change. "New = better!" seems to be imprinted in our minds (thank you commercials). I think the policy of this class is good in not taking up that sentiment, and to change things slowly, very slowly.

    Georg
     
  19. OliLaser

    OliLaser Guest

    Re: Price of Laser sails

    Gorge W.F.
    The systems are quite high but what effect does it have on the performance of the boat?

    For the broken laser block it might have something to do with the cold. The small traveller blocks break alot, if you could put a stronger block with the same diameter, it would be better. ( am i and my fellow club members the only people with this problem or is it common?)

    I strongley agree that New does not always equal better and that the laser is probably one of the best classes/boats in the world, because everything is so strict and every little thing makes a difference.

    By quality instead of quantity I was refering to the original post about the sails. A sail that lasts for an extra few years for more money would be good however I was just ranting, changing the cloth or anything to do with the sails would not be good for the one design image. However allowing more sailmakers to make the sails would be benificial, the quantum practise sails for lasers make very little difference in performance and are much cheaper, same with the intensity sails.
     
  20. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    Re: Price of Laser sails

    I agree, if you can not adjust your outhaul or downhaul, then... go back to optis! its so easy, and it give no advantage, i know 12 year old girls that have no trouble adjusting their rigs in 25 knots, so its ovbiously not that big of an issue

    and i agree that the blocks could due to be changed, just to provide an overall better product, but if you want that product, go out and buy it yourself, it shouldent have to come supplied with the boat, the boom blocks seem seem to work fine, and have never broken on me, the traveler blocks seem to wear out after a couple of years, just from the lower one grinding on the deck, cuz i race with a tight ass traveler, that it just wears away, that inevitable and there is nothing you can do about that, the same thing would probably happen to harkens and ronstans, and would possibly leave marks on the deck because they are not as soft as our holt allens

    and you all know how i feel about masts and sails
     

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