Mast step repair. Opinions wanted.

[Matt Jameson]

Hi there,

I've got a mast step that is currently leaking water into the hull. Take a look at the 3 screenshots I took from a video and please share with me what you think would be the best way to repair it. There is a half inch of water that remains in the bottom of the mast step even after leaving the boat for several days. I would really like to avoid cutting a hole in the deck. Thanks very much!

 

[laserxd]

inspection port is the best way, but you can try getting creative with some epoxy or maybe even better some marine tex (keep in mind that it will be really hard to sand down there, so make sure it's as smooth as you can get it)

 

[Rob Hair]

If it leaks because of a structural problem, the leak is your secondary concern. A search on this forum with return some pictures of mast tubes that have broken completely - not a pretty sight!

 

[Matt Jameson]

If it leaks because of a structural problem, the leak is your secondary concern. A search on this forum with return some pictures of mast tubes that have broken completely - not a pretty sight!

How would you discern that it's a structural problem? There are no hairline fractures on the deck surrounding the mast step and I can't see any within the mast step itself.

 

[Voodoo 158546]

Suggestion ?
For a home remedy...
Dry it out, thoroughly...sponge, microfibre cloth then hot air gun gently for ten to fifteen.
Key it up, 80 grit taped to a stick/rod/batten... Just keying it up not re shaping here.
Clean it, hoover it clean, microfibre on a stick/ rod/ batten with tiny drop of acetone.
Sellotape the mast lower section, the base plug and completely up to just above deck level ... One layer wrap to keep it thin covering all the ali'.
Prep some epoxy friendly glass tape, two wraps around the lower mast?

 

[cskudder]

How would you discern that it's a structural problem?

I'm one of the unlucky people who suffered a mast tube failure. As the mast fell, it tore up the deck, made a right mess of it, which happens in most or all cases of failure. My boat dates back to 1974.

I have not heard of any way to discern a structural problem before the mast lets go and tears things up. Age of the boat and past storage are factors. I've heard that older boats were built with a joint between the bottom of the mast tube and the inside bottom of the hull that was inherently weak even when it was new. Then there is a plywood "donut" in there which often gets waterlogged, expands, cracking structure nearby, and further aggravates the inherent weakness any initial leaks/damage. I've attached a pic of mine after failure. I've heard that boats newer than mid-1990's have a different and better design, but I'm not personally familiar with that. Boats that have been stored right-side-up in freezing conditions often got water in the mast tube that froze, thawed, re-froze, etc. This often started the weakness and leaking. I noticed you're in Toronto so there's freezing winters. I don't think you mentioned if your boat's newer or older, or if you've owned it since new, or if you know or can guess how it was stored before you owned it, etc etc etc. Those things could possibly have some bearing on the odds of a structural problem.

As I researched whether it made sense to fix my boat, I discovered it's a very common failure, especially among older boats. This, IMHO-FWIW-etc, is a really prime case of "a stitch in time saves nine", "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure", and all those similar sayings. All that said, FWIW, if it was my boat, I would surely cut that inspection port right away, and spend the $50 and an hour or 2, and reinforce that joint right now, just based on the fact that it's leaking, and knowing how badly a falling mast tears up the deck. Fixing the deck was really difficult, unpleasant, time-consuming, and expensive. In my case, it was like $300 in material and 20-30 hours of nasty, hard epoxy work inside+outside the hull, the hardest part being fixing the underside of the deck thru the inspection port.

But it's of course your boat + your decision. Just sharing my own experience and thoughts. Hope it works out well either way.

 

[Bungo Pete]

To echo the fellow from Ohio, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I own a 1979 boat, and have done this reinforcing job to mine and a few others - some older some newer. The bottom line is that the tube is held in place by a glassed-in block of plywood and a big wad of bondo and is subjected to substantial shear stresses and adhesive wear at the bottom. In the case of an older boat, a failure will render it useless because of the cost of the replacement tube. If you do it right, the fix will be permanent and you won't have to worry about it again. Also if you put the inspection port directly abeam of the tube, you will also be able to through-bolt the foredeck fittings. Lastly, between this port and the one you might have next to the daggerboard trunk, the boat will stay dry between uses. HTH.

FWIW, I just finished a 1974 b0at and will see if I can post some pics.

 

[tcraig812]

I have a 93 with two inspection ports. Boat is dry after I through- bolted all the fittings, including the deck cleats for the main sheet. I was told there were blocks of wood where they attached. Nope, just a thin sandwich of fiberglass with foam in between. I would really like to see Bungo Pete's photos and description of reinforcement of mast tube inside the hull. Thanks.

 

[cskudder]

Hopefully Bungo Pete will be able to post pics of his actual reinforcement.
FWIW, here's a pic of the repair inside my '73 boat. This was a repair of the failure I described above, rather than a reinforcement before a failure, but hope it's helpful anyway.
I used West System epoxy, which I understand is much stronger than most other epoxy products.
I ran about 12 lengths of glass fabric (about 12 x 3 inches each) down the sides of the mast tube, each spreading out onto the inside of the hull. Then I ran a length of fabric around the tube itself on top of those. This was particularly difficult to do at the TOP of the tube- reattaching it to the underside of the deck. And that was after repairing the underside of the deck. I had the boat upside down on sawhorses, to get gravity "pulling the right direction" for these parts. I sat under the boat, arm up into the inspection port, reaching back down onto the underside of the deck. O what fun -- not.

While I'm at it, I'll also upload a pic of the deck damage that resulted from the mast tipping over after the bottom of the tube came unattached. And just cuz I put SO much time into this repair and have SO enjoyed the boat since then, also the repaired deck.

As I think others have implied, once an old boat like this suffers this kind of damage, it is usually pretty much scrap. I did this repair myself, and without buying the kit that's available, cuz my tube was structurally sound even tho completely detached at both the top and bottom. It still cost like $300 in materials, and 30-40 really nasty hours of work. It's hard to say it was "economically sensible," except in the sense that I had the time to do it, and in terms of pure cash, this set me back less than what replacing the boat (another old used boat) would have cost. The deck damage pic and repair description might help illustrate why I'd be very inclined do the reinforcement pre-emptively if it was my own boat, based on what the OP described.

Hope it helps, good luck with it, holler if we can help further.

 

[jeffers]

The mast tube will tend to fracture part way up when the mast is stepped in a breeze and not controlled as it goes down.

My personal opinion would be if the tube leaks then the only way to fix it properly is to get inside the hull to do it.

That gives 2 options...

1) Put an inspection port to the side of the step (not on the centreline there is additional reinforcing I believe). This gives reasonable access and you can reinforce the foot at the same time (prevention much better than cure). The repair is also very simple, even a rank amateur such as myself can accomplish it without any difficulties.

2) (If you do not want an inspection port) Separate the hull from the deck moulding. This is a massive job and you cannot reinforce the foot on the mast pot as easily when you reassemble.

A lot of older boats have inspection ports and they really do not affect the value (IMO). They also have the advantage in that you can get air circulating onside the hull which allows them to dry out more effectively thus dropping the weight.....

 

[cskudder]

Put an inspection port to the side of the step (not on the centreline there is additional reinforcing I believe).

I agree w Jeffers in regard to the location of the port - put it on the side. I put mine on the centerline but I would not do that again. In my boat, there is a reinforcing structure underneath the centerline of the deck. I didn't know about that when I started. Obviously, cutting the port hole thru that reinforcing structure significantly weakens the reinforcement. It was also harder to secure the port to the deck because the thickness of the deck isn't constant across the centerline.

 

[PommeDeTerre]

I'm new here, but I just purchased a 1980 boat that had a crack in the step tube. (Found it out when I looked at the boat for purchase... poured water in the tube, and it drained immediately.)

Plywood block was fine (probably because the crack was big enough that water didn't seep... it gushed out.

Anyway, cost to fix it was $300. They put an inspection port on either side of the tube, reglassed the tube, and it's solid as can be. The ports make for easy access and drying out the inside, too.

My repair guy said the biggest thing is not to sail it before it's fixed, as it can damage the whole deck if it gives way. He said that can quintuple the cost of the repair.

 

[49208]

You are getting solid advice above, but I do have a couple of questions.
1. What year is the hull ?
2. What does the bottom (not the sides) of the tube look like (your 3 photos show 3 different images, the first makes it look like the bottom of the tube is broken / cracked. If that's the case, then I would suspect that is most likely the cause of the leak, and the reason it's holding 1/2" of water is that the "donut" on the outside of the tube is holding the water at that level (filling it above that level, it will leak into the hull until the level reaches the top of the donut).

If the bottom of the tube is in fact broken/chipped/missing, give the area a good rinse and let it thoroughly dry and then pour a new "bottom" (thickened resin directly into the center of the tube) - no holes to cut, pour only enough to create a new bottom that seals with the side of the tube. Once that is done, fill the tube back up with water. If the level doesn't drop, time to go sailing - if it still drops (or there are no cracks in the bottom of the tube), it's time to put in an inspection port and follow the advic above.

 

[Voodoo 158546]

Sorry guys but,
If after doing the tube/step repairs with hatches fitted etc, you still have to dry out the boat and let it breathe etc.....then isn't there a problem elsewhere ?
For the OP -
I got my boat with a little damage to the gun'al as a result of trolley bounce, it hadn't been used for a season and wasn't tied down properly by the former keeper.
First thing I did was to epoxy with 404 & re-bond the join and while I was at it, ream out a few mil ALL around the boat both sides with a dremel and epoxy/404, bastard job but she's a lovely dry girl now - still have the spiderweb /cobweb around the bung retainers on the bung from her year ashore. It's a joy checking after each outing and seeing the dry web remnants and no fluid.
I also re- gelcoated the mast tube. So worth doing.
She also had the old style fittings and these were upgraded soon after and "while I was at it" the centre block and toestrap was removed and re-fitted again (west) epoxy/404 was the dipping sauce for the returning screws.
She had a little beach rash from sandy beach landings that needed filling, probably around 140 ? Individual scratches underneath but each one got the treatment - mechanically cleaned/abraded with 80 grit, chemically cleaned and keyed with acetone, 404 mix and rubbed with 1000 grit. I didn't bother with colouring gel coat to finish as she was going to get painted the right colour - black of course !
International perfection s' undercoat & topcoat. 3 coats of each almost entirely wet sanded away after each coat. Took several evenings but again completely worth it.
Point here is.... All fittings were removed and refitted, all potential cracks in the deck/hull join were eliminated, the hull was completely skimmed and encased.
With the upgrades on top and colour matched dyneema she's like a brand new boat...she gets a fair bit of attention for a 17 year old.

 

[SailingFun]

I have have been victim to several mast step failures. 1. mid 70's ( the wood donut had turned into saw dust) . 2). 88' ( the mast step popped out of its donut) 3. 92' the donut broke free of its attachment to the hull floor. ( all 3 were disasters) ... As SCkudder put it its no fun to fix ( but easier off a deck rail up side down since you can stand rather than kneel).

The 70's boat did not leak and I had reinforced the step with cloth and west coast epoxy in anticipation of a failure. But when it did fail there was no wood left it as all dust.. Would have had injecting GIT-ROT into the wood donut add strength? I have another boat ( 75ish) that i would like to prevent failure on that does not leak. Any suggestions............

 

[SailingFun]

looking at the photos .. assuming that the mast step did not leak into the hull... you would empty it out,,, dry it out... and than pour epoxy in? If I do that, do you level the step first or is it raked?
Do you place a plate or chip into the wet goo before it dry's? Has anyone had success with pouring a resin into their mast step and not had a failure? Any suggestions ......

 

[CaptainAhab]

More glass should do it. I would be impressed if 4 layers of 10 oz cloth and epoxy would not be enough to prevent a failure. (2) layers run 45/45 the other (2) 0/90 would break. Make sure you put a fillet at the base of the tube.

I figure as a typical preventive measure 2 layers of cloth one on the bias(it goes up curves better) should be more than adequate if the ply is in good shape.

 

[49208]

looking at the photos .. assuming that the mast step did not leak into the hull... you would empty it out,,, dry it out... and than pour epoxy in? If I do that, do you level the step first or is it raked?
Do you place a plate or chip into the wet goo before it dry's? Has anyone had success with pouring a resin into their mast step and not had a failure? Any suggestions ......

If the mast step is not leaking, you would do nothing. In the OP case, it's leaking down to a specific depth, from either a crack in the wall of the tube, or a hole in the base of the tube.
If the leak is in the base, yes, you dry it out and pour thickened resin (epoxy or polyester, makes no difference) while the boat is level. Pour so you end up with a depth of 14.125" measured from the deck down. Once that is done and hard, put in a wear plate (Stainless is forever, plastic will need to be replaced when it wears out) glue it in place with a dab of silicone/5200 or thickened resin

 

[sunfishlaser123]

ok thanks for the advise.. I have a old 7366 boat thats is in wonderful condition. It had no sheet cleats, bailor or inspection ports and stored inside a barn for 20 years or more.. I will let you know if my expoxy support was a success.