Mark II Standard Sail

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by mental floss, Oct 2, 2015.

  1. inlandfreddy

    inlandfreddy Member

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    Yes, it helps by allowing a soft transition into the stiffer leech that the battens give. This softness also reduces wear that can result in softer sailcloth and stretch at the "bow end" of the battens.
     
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  2. opT

    opT New Member

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    I didn't use the new sail at Sail Sydney but I used it on one training day and heard plenty from sailors who used it. I had some personal thoughts but mostly we agreed on the strength and weaknesses of the sail.

    In 6-12 knots I didn't try the sail, but others seemed to have great height. It also looked very good with only a few wrinkles. In 12-16 knots it seemed to provide consistent power which made a block to block vmg mode very comfortable. In 16 knots+ I thought the high mode was quick, but found it uncomfortable footing. There seemed to be too much weather helm which I usually quell with some firm cunningham. On the new sail, in my opinion the cunningham has too many reinforced patches along the luff and mast sleeve. It is very hard to 'crank the cunnignham' in the sense that the grommet moves close to the boom. It seems that since there is no stretch now in the lower luff, there is a large amount of tension spread out locally in the luff. This creates a nice looking flat entry of the sail (no more 'bubbling' at the luff from the grommet being pulled down 6 inches) but since the grommet doesn't move very far the extra tension doesn't effect the rest of the sail very much. The result being the cunningham has less effect to flatten the rest of the sail and twist open the top. This means the sail looked quite ugly in 16+ knots with equal or more creases than the old sail and it was a beast to handle in the big breeze. Outhaul needs to be tight and lots of vang needed. Unfortunately the extra vang adds to the diagonal wrinkles which the cunningham fails to remove. I found with the old sail using cunningham and the right amount of vang I could easily release the boat and have it 'feel free' when trying to go low for speed in big breeze.

    It must be noted the other sailors and I were all using stuff Australian spars. We discussed and it may be beneficial to use softer sections with the new cut sail. More testing needs to be done to see how manage the sail in breeze and with different mast combinations.
     
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  3. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

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    Stuff(sic) Australian spars?
    Softer sections?
    Different mast combinations?

    Where can I buy those?
     
  4. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    Move to Australia. All these isues with different regions having equipment in different parts of the tolerance is a non issue if people don't source equipment from outside their region. The tolerances are there to permit 2+ manufacturers to build within reasonable manufacturing constraints and not for competitors to assemble the perfect boat.
     
  5. opT

    opT New Member

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    Yes Alan but people do source the best mast combinations and one is forced to at least match at the HIGHEST level of sailing, not an issue for your club or national level sailing.

    My main point is I'd like to try the MKII sail with the 'softer' north american/euro sections and/or the incoming carbon top section to see if the power management in the up pressure can be relieved somewhat by more forgiving mast bend.

    I'm very interested to hear more about others who have used the sail in the 15+ knot wind range. Additionally, I used what I believe was the Pryde MKII sail. What I understand is that there is a Hyde and North version as well. Yes, they should all be the equal but as we saw with the old cut that is not always the case.
     
  6. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    All this is relatively new and to the detriment of the class.

    The reality is, that you can't beat someone using identical equipment, you're not going to beat them at the worlds or Olympics where the equipment is supplied. If you want to do well at these higher level events, you need to work on your sailing ability and not trying to make the perfect boat.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2015
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  7. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    I sailed this past Sunday in light winds (5-10 mph); some hiking required (for a light-weight). Upwind, I seemed to move along with the leaders (with older sails), but downwind my sail looked UGLY because of the luff pocket. My vang was on a bit, but as I wrote, the sail shape looked sub-optimal. Tightening the C'ham didn't do much, it seemed.
    Recommendations, please.
    More vang?
     
  8. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

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    "Ugly" and "sub-optimal" aren't very specific terms... how did the shape differ from what you wanted? Was the sail too flat/full, maximum camber too far forward/aft, too much/not enough twist? Did any of the control lines run out of range of adjustment?

    If "because of the luff pocket" means that you had a vertical crease right behind the mast, then you have to pre-bend more, and downwind the vang is the the only thing that you can do it with. And of course the cunningham should be completely loose.

    (A bit envious of all of you who can test the Mark II... the temperature here was almost minus 30 degrees yesterday... next week it should be safe to walk on my home waters.)
     
  9. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    Thanks; Yes, the sail had a vertical crease/pocket. I will try to pull on more vang.

    And yes, many fleets in the Northeast of the USA are frostbiting. My area has had relatively mild weather, but the water temp is close to freezing. Dry suits are a must.
     
  10. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

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    Just noticed there is a diagram of the Mark II in the latest edition of the class rules which has been effective from January 1. Small but interesting differences in the measurements with the Mark I:
    • the luff is 10 mm and the leech 15 mm shorter
    • the foot is 10 mm longer, but the 1/2 foot height is 40 mm shorter, so the foot is straighter
    • all the leech-to-luff measurements are 15 to 40 mm longer.
    So it's a slightly shorter but wider sail, with more roach and/or luff curve. Of course, what (if anything) this translates to on the water, remains to be seen.
     
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  11. Old Dude

    Old Dude Member

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    Encountered exact same thing in similar conditions while frostbiting this weekend. Using my vang off wind pre-set was wayyyyy to much vang off. New sail seems to need more vang down wind to avoid the vertical fold or pocket you described.
     
  12. rippa

    rippa Member

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    We just had our Western Australian State Championship in very light winds (up to 10 knots) and the Mark II performed very well. Most master sailors, except me, had the new sail and I was definitely underpowered going upwind. Downwind I did not notice much difference. The problems with the Mark II seems to be the 15+ range. Any suggestions and pictures of the sail upwind in breezy conditions?
     
  13. opT

    opT New Member

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    I've only sailed about 5 minutes with the new sail in Sydney, but heard a lot of feedback from others at Sail Sydney on the breezy day indicating there was a lot of helm and a lot of power in the rig. As I mentioned earlier in the thread it would be interesting to see if softer spars would help out in the 15+ range and not detract too much from the lighter air. Given the same spar set just have to vang and outhaul hard (cunno doesn't have the same effect) but the sail doesn't look pretty. Word is it's time to start eating and get big!
     
  14. Duncan_vdH

    Duncan_vdH Member

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    I would be interested to have your opinions on the value of the new Mark II for beginners. Is it worth to invest in a new Mk II to start learning with that sail as opposed to
    the Mk I? I could also imagine the increased ease with which it can be depowered makes it attractive for a beginner.
    Best,
    Duncan
     
  15. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    Duncan, it's my opinion that you are overthinking the issue. Just go learn to sail the boat with whatever sail you can find. More in general, the Mk II sail is supposed to be identical to the older version. Yes, there are conditions where one sail may outperform the other, but that will be apparent only to hard core Laseristas. Moreover, the idea that the Mk II sail is more tuneable, is debatable. I have read otherwise.

    Good luck with the learning process; the Laser remains a challenging boat.
     
  16. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    Use whatever sail is available. If you are needing to purchase sails for training outside of organized races, get a knock-off. They will be learning basic boat handling and sail trim. They will need to know basics like when to let off the vang, but micro-adjustments to the control lines will be above them at this point.

    Going forward, I would think there are no plans to sell the Mk I along with the Mk II once the Rio Olympics are over. In a year or two the "which is better" question will be moot, and the way forward will be the Mk II. Maybe a slight hiccup to the strict one-design concept of the class, but a necessary road to take.
     
  17. Andy B

    Andy B Member

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    Having used the MKII for a year and after talking with other sailors with the MKII I have a slightly different view to Torrid and Wavedancer.

    The big advantage with the MKII is it is far easier to see how the sail is set because the kicker, outhaul and sheet change make more obvious changes to the shape of the sailand you will therefore learn more quickly.

    I also believe you are likeley to find the MKII more enjoyable to sail because of the way it handles.

    I would not bother with a replica until they are copying the MKII but personally feel we should all support our class builders and sailmakers.
     
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  18. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    Finally got out for my first spring sail with the new sail. Here are my impressions, sailing in variable wind from drifting to light hiking.

    It is much easier to adjust the controls and get a nice sail shape. Nice looking, though I'm not sure how fast. I was able to adjust the cunningham to get rid of luff wrinkles without any nasty creases radiating from where the mast sections join. Note I did not have any packing tape on the collar of the upper mast (this has been on my to-do list, but I may put if off now).

    The sail controls felt more linear. For example, it was pretty clear at which point the cunningham gave the best sail shape. Likewise, I felt more response when sheeting out the main in a puff. Normally I can't sheet out fast enough, then suddenly the boat slams flat. With the new sail, I felt it gradually depowering as I let out.

    My impression is that a novice or less technical sailor will be able to get better sail shape in light to moderate winds with the new sail. A more advanced sailor who has been strangling the old design the same way for years to get an extra 0.1 knot may not be as happy with it.
     
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  19. lasereng

    lasereng Member

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    So what are the latest thoughts on this? If you were going upwind for a few miles in exactly the same conditions with a sailor of exactly the same quality would a new mark 2 or a new original sail pop out in front? Similarly, what would be the case downwind.

    The word I have heard is that the mark 2 is significantly faster upwind and slightly slower downwind....
     
  20. lasereng

    lasereng Member

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    hello? anyone?
     

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